[Question]Certain Units...

[Siautas]

Thx, Frujin. I know u are busy. I hope you will support some of our ideas. Maybe u have already did it. And our worries are just from lack of information.

We really looking forward to see list of provinces and units as fast as u can. and really hope that it would be more balanced (about units list).

All the best to your team by now:cheers: :cheers:

@peace

[Siena]

Originally posted by Finellach
200 is not imposibble, but highly unlikely and as such we can say that it's hardly posibble or imposibble. ;)

Also I don't know what would this game gain by every "region" having it's unique unit. First of all it would take ages to balance it, second as pointed by Khan Krum most units in medival Europe where the same, but had different name and somewhat different use on the battlefield, but basiclly there were many "alike" units.

I would also like some more units, but not units for every realm/province as you suggest.

Wait, wait, wait...
I have never suggested 200 units.

My post - which you quoted - said that even if there was a unique unit for each unique region in Medieval Europe - there would not be more than 50 unique units.
There would probably be less, than 50.

As you said - and I agree -there were many similar units, which could be used throughout similar regions. So - many Western European countries woudl share same units, and many Eastern European Countries would share their units.
Same with Middle East and Africa.

However, each unique region could have their own unit to distinguish it.
I imagine unique regions as such:

Ireland, Scotland, England, France, Germany, Switzerland, Italy, Spain, Scandinavia, Prussia, Lithuania, Latvian Balts, North Rus, Steppes, North Balkans, South Balkans, Turkey, North Africa, Poland, Czechs, Magyars....

Something like that.
Of course - this is not a well defined list - it is just to illustrate an idea. As you see - there are not that many regions. These cover most of Europe - and even when added a few more - there would hardly be more than 30.

So one unique unit for one region - is quite possible.
To this number would be added shared generic units. In total there would harly be more than 50, I think.

I was not talking about each province-realm in the game. Although - the closer to province level you get - the better, of course....

[Finellach]

Agreed Siena, but I think it would be unrealistic for this game to have about 50 units only in Europe without counting siege units and water units and the infidels and moslem units.
I wish if devs could shows us the different regions of Europe or to be prescise their definition of West Europe, East Europe, Balkans and so on. Beacause in medival times the "border" between East and West Europe was a bit more to the East than it is today. ;)

And Frujin you have my full support. I am also glad that you still read the forums and hopefully will take some advises from here, but ultimately you are the ones to make the descsions. People here are bored and a bit impatient so don't blame us for that, we just want this great game. :angel: :D

[Khan Krum]

Finellach, I might have not found the perfect solution for us, but as I mentioned we could at the least bring some system in our desires to ease the so kind developers.
As some Roman phylosophers concluded Rome is all about the mob (probably saw it in a cheap historical movie like Gladiator), but following this line of thoughts we have the power and easing the "governors" with our dreams (wet ones) and wishes. Cliche but still organization is the quality to success and later it's all about team work.
So some of you experienced "warriors" here should get things moving on ;) if you'd accept an opinion from a newby.

[Elewyn]

be sure, Khan Krum that without neverending stream of ideas from newbies and info from the devs, this forum won't keep it's level. Everytime there is nothing new, we, senior members turn to wild fantasy and imagine whet can be better and many times it can turn to be too far from devs' ideas.

So, we must be little more patient, we all know what is the purpouse of this forum: devs need feedback and they like if some good ideas come from this forum. As revenge they are giving us some information about game and some of our ideas get included in game. But they:
1. can't go forth every our desire and
2. they can't spend too much of their time here because they are developers of such a great game, so they also must work on it and not only the game, but also many more things (E3 right now).

:angel: sorry that we were too offensive and impatient. :angel:

here is also my quote on one Finellach's posts from newly emerged thread...
Originally posted by Finellach
We have been discussing for quite some time about appearance of certain units and addition of some new units for some areas.
It is also well known that most people would like to see Templars and Teutons on horses. However I would like to suggest some other things I already touched in my previous posts. I feel that these changes are should be made:

Teutons - add them in Bohemia, Austria, Swiss and Flanders(present day Holland and Belgium)
Templars - Add them in Central Europe as well (present day Hungary, "North Balkans" Croatia, Bosnia and in Slovakia)
Crossbowman - add them in Teutonic Order areas or areas highly influenced by them (Baltics, Bohemia and North Poland)
Janissary - remove from Balkans, add them specifically to Ottomans and Moslem Middle East.
Vikings - this units is not announced, but I have slight feeling they will not be in Russia(with Ukraine as well) and IMO they should be there since they are (IMO) responsible for organizing Russian Kingdom(with Ukraine as well).
Normans - add them in Denmark(why aren't they present in Denmark?!?) and England.

Also addition of some units also in Central Europe like medium cavalry like already proposed Varyags(Central/East Europe) by Elewyn. Some additional Moslem units like Mamluks(Egypt, Middle East) would be great too.
Hi, Finellach. I don't think it's necessary to open another thread with the same topic (then everybody is curious why I have so many posts: I must answer the same always in 2 threads;))

I pointed out what I agree with.
I agree with medium cav. the same with Varyags, the same with Mamluks. But honestly, Varyags were "asimilated Vikings", they should be in Russian realms, not in eastern-central Europe(may be there only if there will be no more Slavic unit, but then not called Varyags, because I never heard of Varyags in Bohemia nor Poland nor Croatia). I would prefere Varyags AND some more special Slavic unit if possible for area of Poland, Bohemia and Croatia.

And I return now to idea of Varyags not called Varyags, but Slavic warriors and available in wider areas. Hobilars are quite similar to Lithuanian cavalry (if the lance will be shorter), so if you rename them somehow neutrally you will satisfy the need of having unit like this in Baltics, but protect from creating new unit very similar to one already existing. This I suggest because we know there will be only 4-5 new units added!

However Templars WERE ALSO in other regions than in France, they were famous only in France. I guess nobody except Hungarians or Croatians ever have heard about croatian templars (however I am sure they were!) As I said once, if Templars in Croatia, so then also in "Spain", Holland, Germany, whole Italy, England, Bohemia etc.

Crossbowmen should be added to Baltic TO lands(except Lithuania IMO), then not should but may be added to Bohemia and Netherlands and parts of Germany and Poland too.

I don't agree with Normans in Denmark. They were originaly Danes, but they became Normans only after they setteled Normandy. I doubt if they are necessary in Germany. IMO they should be in: Normandy, Bretagne, 2southern realms of England, maybe Flandres, Sicily, Apulia, Naples, Sardiny.

I think there is also one big roblem with units like Janissary. Turks should be able to have them available in Balkans if they conquere it, but it will be very foolish if also their christian enemies would use janissary aggainst them. I think the best way will be if Janissary will be the only "distance" unit in Asia Minor(for all nations), but if some muslim nation conqueres any Balkan realm, also there(only for muslim nations). Is it clear? Maybe only too complicated :(

sorry for soo long post

[Siautas]

Originally posted by Finellach
[B]Agreed Siena, but I think it would be unrealistic for this game to have about 50 units only in Europe without counting siege units and water units and the infidels and moslem units.

you just arguing but u don't give any arguments :confused: We don't talk about adding 20 or 30 of units. We just want to see balanced game, were U can produce unique units in various regions. I can't understand why it's a problem for u. What u doesn’t want to have some special units in Central Europe?

Beacause in medival times the "border" between East and West Europe was a bit more to the East than it is today. ;)

Can u tell me more about this your geopolitical theory? I really hear it for a first time… sorry.

And Frujin you have my full support. I am also glad that you still read the forums and hopefully will take some advises from here, but ultimately you are the ones to make the descsions. People here are bored and a bit impatient so don't blame us for that, we just want this great game. :angel: :D

:cheers: yes we really all whant this game

[Finellach]

Originally posted by Siautas
you just arguing but u don't give any arguments :confused: We don't talk about adding 20 or 30 of units. We just want to see balanced game, were U can produce unique units in various regions. I can't understand why it's a problem for u. What u doesn’t want to have some special units in Central Europe?

I gave you the pretty solid arguments. The game would be chaos if we would have 50 different units. I am sure BSS doesn't want to go there and I am glad because of that.
Also please read my posts more carefully, I have repeated several times that Central-East Europe needs some kind of special units. I want to see qulity over quantity so I am for 2-3 really good units instead of 20 crappy ones like you suggest.

Originally posted by Siautas
Can u tell me more about this your geopolitical theory? I really hear it for a first time… sorry.

The Eastern border of Western Europe in middle ages all the way up until early 20th century was the catholic/protestant Europe. Orthodox Europe was consider East Europe.

[Siautas]

Originally posted by Finellach
[B] I want to see quality over quantity so I am for 2-3 really good units instead of 20 crappy ones like you suggest.

Well I liked the units idea in TW:Medieval. Ok I sill see no problem if every region (not realm) will have at least one unique unit. Because if in Lithuania will be possible to produce Teutonic Champions or Boyars and no any local unit it will be total nonsense.



The Eastern border of Western Europe in Middle Ages all the way up until early 20th century was the catholic/protestant Europe. Orthodox Europe was consider East Europe.

Well don't be so quick with such loud presentation, my friend. I think this is more complicated question, but it is off topic so let’s leave it like it is;) .

[Finellach]

Originally posted by Siautas
Well I liked the units idea in TW:Medieval. Ok I sill see no problem if every region (not realm) will have at least one unique unit. Because if in Lithuania will be possible to produce Teutonic Champions or Boyars and no any local unit it will be total nonsense.

Well if you don't like it don't play it. It's simple as that. ;)

Originally posted by Siautas
Well don't be so quick with such loud presentation, my friend. I think this is more complicated question, but it is off topic so let’s leave it like it is;) .

This is not some phantom of my imaginaion, it's a fact. The current "order" was set up during the WW2(although the process begun before WW1) when Europe divided itself into west democratic societies and east plutocrtic totalitarian states. Before that Europe was divided by religion(read culture).
And today we are witnesses for a new order in Europe.

[Siena]

Originally posted by Siautas
Because if in Lithuania will be possible to produce Teutonic Champions or Boyars and no any local unit it will be total nonsense.


Yes, I agree to this.
It is my main concern too... It would be about the same, like the only unique units in France would be Longbowman and Teutonic Knight.


Finellach,
I was not wishing for 20 crappy units. I think nobody would want that.
I would also settle for 2-3 good units, if it was possible to differentiate the whole Eastern Europe with those. But it is difficult to imagine how that can be done...
So I am wishing for at least 1 unique unit for each unique region of Eastern Europe.
Same like England and Scotland have ;)

[Finellach]

Originally posted by Siena
Finellach,
I was not wishing for 20 crappy units. I think nobody would want that.
I would also settle for 2-3 good units, if it was possible to differentiate the whole Eastern Europe with those. But it is difficult to imagine how that can be done...
So I am wishing for at least 1 unique unit for each unique region of Eastern Europe.
Same like England and Scotland have ;)

Well I am not sure that "Eastern Europe" has so many distinct units....

[Siautas]

Originally posted by Finellach
Well I am not sure that "Eastern Europe" has so many distinct units....

Yes Croatia maybe has no such units, but some other nations do.

Well I see U are very cool in seeking a quarrel and saying nothing positive.

Of cause u cannot play this game if u want nobody will cry for that man.

[Elewyn]

pleas. I'm affraid this is turning to be too offensive argue, although you both think almost the same. I don't understand you. You think almost the same but still argue.

I must agree that eastern europe is not so researched as western is, there are not so many really unique units known.
I can't imagine unique unit for Bohemian lands far diferent from unique polish unit which I can't imagine so diferent from Hungarian unit which may be close to special Croatian unique unit, very similar to Serbian one etc.
I can't imagine one unit for southern Russia, another for areas around Kiev and Smolensk and one another for south east of "Russian part of map", so Ukraine, lands north of Caucasus but south of Riazan.

but I can imagine some kind of Magyar or Hungarian/Croatian cavalry available in medieval Hungaria and Croatia, maybe eastern parts of Poland (with feudal knights in Silesia, Great Poland-around Poznan, Bohemian lands),
then some kind of "western Slav"infantry unit for Poland, Bohemian lands, Croatia(however it is in nothern Balkans) and Hungary (where Slavs lived on north mainly, now they are Slovaks).
Then one more infantry unit for Russia: Varangians about which is discussion somewhere else.
Then special cavalry unit for Baltic region, but not available for Teutonic order (and Lithuanians will not be able to recruit Teutonics). There already are Boyars and Steppe horsemen for northern, resp. southern Russia, cataphracts close to Bulgarian cavalry on Balkans. This will be IMO ideal, but we all know there will be far less units than I wrote above :(

Of course I think that Poland, Hungary, Bohemian lands and Croatia belonged to the west before WW2, but in the same sentence I must point out that everything was there 100years later than in France (during medieval times). There was cultural border (catholic/protestant vs. orthodox), but also since 16th century also economical border and it was river Elbe (Labe in czech) which made fhenomena of "eastern central Europe": Bohemian lands, Poland, Hungary(medieval, so +Slovakia now), Croatia and Slovenia, and untill WW2 Austria was part of it too.

[Siautas]

Well we can talk for ages guys...

but I really looking to hear the position of game creators becouse trey will decide how the game will look like...

hope they listen all sides and will add couple units to Estern Europe, Baltic but not too much (not to every realm).

@peace

:cheers:

[Khan Krum]

Originally posted by Elewyn
be sure, Khan Krum that without neverending stream of ideas from newbies and info from the devs, this forum won't keep it's level. Everytime there is nothing new, we, senior members turn to wild fantasy and imagine whet can be better and many times it can turn to be too far from devs' ideas.

So, we must be little more patient, we all know what is the purpouse of this forum: devs need feedback and they like if some good ideas come from this forum. As revenge they are giving us some information about game and some of our ideas get included in game. But they:
1. can't go forth every our desire and
2. they can't spend too much of their time here because they are developers of such a great game, so they also must work on it and not only the game, but also many more things (E3 right now).


Exactly, Elewyn.They can't keep up with all we make up here in terms of ideas and desires, and that's where I suggest that we keep our flow of wishes to some level which the developers can follow easily - for instance take the suggestions that have the highest rate of support and bring it into one thread opened only to mods so they can update it. On the other hand it might be a lot of work so may be some polls should give us some direction
Anyway, it's only an idea.

I follow your discussion around here and just came into thinking about the Steppe Horsemen - everywhere they settle they simply transform. As you pointed out Bulgarian Cavalry came from the steppes but later turned on closer to cataphracts and even got organized in a similar way (not professional enough but still), and Magyars later settled to be knights. So my point is at the start they might be Steppe Horsemen and have an upgrade to turn them into either cataphracts or feudal knights as they stopped being the people who "were born on the back of the horse".
Still my idea here is not as historically correct because there were other tribes migrating from Asia to settle around "their brothers" (when they didn't invade them :D ), so I really don't know if something like this should be done in the first place.

Next, call me ignorant if I'm wrong, but will different units that are shared across the borders have different stats (or bonuses like in the Age of Kings)?

[Elewyn]

Originally posted by Siautas
Well we can talk for ages guys...

but I really looking to hear the position of game creators becouse trey will decide how the game will look like...

hope they listen all sides and will add couple units to Estern Europe, Baltic but not too much (not to every realm).

@peace

:cheers: either sharp argue or surrender? :(

my point was. If you disagree, don't say it in offensive way and try to find a conclusion.

Boyars open up the door to Eastern Europe :)

great! I like them as I like Vikings. Wonderfull hoorns, what do ya think, Jarlabanke? :D

[Siautas]

Originally posted by Elewyn
either sharp argue or surrender? :(



calm down please;) :D

[Elewyn]

I just used your way of expressions. Just to provoke. I'm glad you want me to calm down. I didn't mean it so.

I was little disapointed that your reaction to my suggestion was "we can duiscuss for ages". Of course we can. Of course the devs will finally do what THEY think is the best.

I personally only try to find some way which may inspire them or not.

Btw, I like Krum's idea of upgrading Steppe horsemen. Maybe better than upgrading a unit it can be influenced by level of the castle. In some first levels you can build buildings necessary for Steppe horsemen (in certain regions of course) and when you reach to particular level, you can build also structures to have boyars available (Boyars seem to be not far from bulgarian cavalry to me, so that's why they are in Balkans) or if in Hungary or Middle East, also feudal knights (or other cavalry unit?) resp. Mamluks or some kind of Arabic "knight" cavalry.

Thare still lasts question which kind of cavalry will be available in Scandinavia. Feudal knights? only light cavalry?

[Khan Krum]

Yeah, both Boyars and Cataphracts get close to what our cavalry was around 1000 AD and later on. We had aristocracy - Boils at the first- as long as I recall. But still we had more of Byzantine influence than Russian (we met later on as enemies on the field one of the Kiev rulers even siezed control of the country for some time) speaking about military and government.
So personally I'd go for cataphracts - Bulgarians were more proficient on the saddle at the least compared to the Early Slavs found around here (no offense), but will settle with everything the devs decide.

[Finellach]

Originally posted by Siautas
Yes Croatia maybe has no such units, but some other nations do.

Actually it did, but I am not whining around the forums aasking for 20 different special units for area of some small kingdom nobody heard of...

Originally posted by Siautas
Well I see U are very cool in seeking a quarrel and saying nothing positive.

The only one seeking quarrel is you. I said nothing offensive nor anything that was pointed to you yet you continue this offensive talk. If you have personal problems please seek some other way to let your frustration and leave me alone.

Originally posted by Siautas
Of cause u cannot play this game if u want nobody will cry for that man.

Actually just the opposite. I am not the one whining about all the time it's you. So if you don't like it, don't play it.