Educational system

[Ben Nevis]

After the terrible fights in the politics thread ;) I'd like to start a healthy (healthy means respect each others opinions etc. etc.) discussion about educational systems (partly to prove that we can have a mannered discussion in this forum :angel: ). When I was in the US on a foreign exchange we (the exchange students) compared the educational systems with each other and the differences were striking. I'll try to explain what the Dutch system looks like. Dutch children are tested at age 11 or 12 for their "intelligence".
After this the results are added up to the experiences of the primary school teacher and an advice is given concerning the type of school to go to. The parents can still decide what school their child will go to, but the child will be tested again by te high school the child wants to go to if the advice is significantly "lower".

There are three levels of high school,
-VMBO - the lowest level, very practical
-HAVO - medium level, somewhat academic
-VWO - highest level, academic

After VWO you can go straight to university. After HAVO you can go to a lower level type university or to the VWO (1 year delay).
After VMBO you can learn a "profession" or go to HAVO (1 year delay).

Most of my fellow students (from other countries) strongly objected to this system, due to the categorization and the caste type of system. For me, having been brought up with it it's completely normal and for me it's hard to imagine to be in the same class with "MAVO people" (This immediately illustrates another major disadvantage; the stigmatization). To me it seems to be a rather big advantage to group the people with comparable intelligence. Smart ones don't get bored as easily whereas "less smart ones" don't trail behind and might actually feel "less dumb" than when they're not grouped together.
Well, I just wondered what your educational system looks like and what you think of the Dutch system and how you solve the "intelligence gap" in your system.

I'm especially interested in the systems of Eastern Europe, cause I don't know a lot about it. I hope I get some responses.
:cheers:

[Sir Turylon]

It is very hard to describe the US educational system.

main reason is this. Education is left up to the individual states. All funding from Federal Gov goes through the state govs.

This results in 50 different educational systems, some even diversifying from city to city in each state!

There are Federal and State levels of educational "standards" which are mandated at all levels of government.

I can only speak for Michigan, since I've been in the system here for 18+ years.

there is a voluntary pre-school which geas children up for kindergarden. Then you have grades 1 through 5 which basically follow the reading, writing, mathematics, science groups.. All from one teacher. Starting in grade 6 and going through grade 8, the students have their classes diversified amongst different teachers and the students have to take mandatory clases for graduation in grade 8, but their options are based on a "per credit in each field" basis.

High School has three different levels. You can opt to take the lowest levels of classes, to meet minimum graduation requirements based on a certain number of credit hours. Usually 1 history, 2 science, 2 math, 1 art, government, health, gym & swimming, 3 years of english, 3 lit classes. I think the min is something like 24.

The normal course is roughly 32 credit hours to 36 credit hours. This is the course most kids take. It has flexible "free elective" choices mixed over 4 years.

A few very bright students might opt to take college credit courses... or Advanced Placement courses in many of the more advanced topics. These classes can either be on campus, or on a local university.

Then... there is the option of private schools... which are different in many respects. You can even opt to go to a junior college right out of 12th grade or High School before going on for 2-6 year degrees.

The systems do differ though... Best thing to relate level of education on would be the College acceptance tests. or ACT and SAT. These are easily beaten though by taking a prep-class on each test... Which teach you how to 'beat" the tests by introducing them to their tricks and how to defeat them.


The intelligence gap over here... not much you can do to solve it. There is too high an emphasis on pushing kids through school and getting them out. To me, that is a poor shame; since education is suppose to excite kids about learning instead of just trying to force standardized facts and figures into their little brains.


:go: @ Ben and starting a nice thread. :cheers:

[Nike]

Eastern Europe, Bulgaria. A country that used to be proud of it's educational system. Not anymore! The Department of Education and Science is one of the worst - constant reforms and always unsuccessful.

You start going to school usually at the age of 7 (or 6 if you want). The first two or three years are quite easy - learning to write, read, calculate etc. (a lot of people (like me) already knew how to read, write etc.).
From fourth grade the troubles start - the school becomes a prison. You learn mainly theory, almost no practical studying. After you finish 8th grade you receive a "Basic Education Diploma" with which you can become only a garbage collector or street cleaner.
Afetr 7th or 8th grade you go to High School (Gymnasium) or Technikum! Some of them give you a specialised Diploma (like mine - Manager Accountant)!
After you finish 12th grade you can go to University. I don't know pretty much about that - I'm still in High School!

And the problem is that (except for the first three years) all you learn and study is theory! In an enormous quantity! I envy all the "Westerners" and especially the Americans. From what I know there's nothing to wonder why all our "brains" (and especially computer specialists) leak out before they even graduate University! It's much more easy to study out there! Thank God I'm in a good High School (Austrian-Bulgarian Project) with some real practice!

[Ben Nevis]

Ben Nevis

Some of them give you a specialised Diploma (like mine - Manager Accountant)!

Wow, that profession is learned on university in Holland!!! You start of with business administration and after two years you can specialize into accountancy. After four years you have to do a post-study of two years and after all that you are a certified accountant (maybe there's a difference with being Manager Accountant in Bulgaria, I don't know)

@ Lord Turylon

What do you think about the minor major system? On the one hand it's easier for students to switch the subject, but on the other hand you go less into debt. We used to have to choose one subject (study) after which you really had to switch studies (often go to another university) if you were not satisfied with your choice (which happened a lot). Now the Dutch government also implemented the minor-major system and I wonder what it's effects are going to be. I think it's a good step, but I'm not sure.

When I was in the US I heard there was a lot of debate about the college acceptance tests. That these tests favored the majority (Caucasians) and that it's impossible to make a reliant test etc. Are they going to change something about this selection system?

:cheers:

[Nike]

Originally posted by Ben Nevis
Wow, that profession is learned on university in Holland!!! You start of with business administration and after two years you can specialize into accountancy. After four years you have to do a post-study of two years and after all that you are a certified accountant (maybe there's a difference with being Manager Accountant in Bulgaria, I don't know)

Same here! The only difference is it's in High School!

[Jorghan]

Wow, I think I like the dutch system. It seems to have flexibility (everyone doesn't have to study at the same pace/level) and still retain the structure.

[Sir Turylon]

Well.. it's like this.

When you get into college you have three choices.

A) General studies without a declared major
B) Declare a major and enter into a specific school, taking classes designed to advance you through to your degree
C) Declare a Major with a Minor in a second field of study.

Say for instance, you choose History as your major. You can then choose a minor in a art degree program.. (IE, Bachelor of Arts programs) So you can major in History and minor in physics or political science, or even chemistry. The minor will not give you a Bachelors in that specific field, but you'll get a nice shiney piece of paper saying you went crazy in college and decided to study two fields at once. (High Schools love the major with minor people cause they can teach more than one subject.)

If you want to say... teach... It depends upon the level of teaching you are going for.

Anything under 6th grade requires a general education degree. Anything over and including 6th grade up until 12th grade would need a Bachelors in a specific field and (in Michigan) a Michigan Education Proficiency Test passage so the schools know yer just not a walking fact book. Anything on the college level requries at LEAST a masters in a field... maybe even an even more specific field of study... Like Bachelors in History, Field of Eastern European, Emphasis on 19th century.

The graduate level is even more complex.... you can further reduce your field to just one country.

For instance, I had a general European History class with a guy that held a PhD in Midieval history, and a Masters in Greeco-Roman history, and a bachelors in European. He was quite silly. He was also a bit crazy... he kept rambling on in Latin a few times...Most of the kids thought he was a nutcase.


The college entrance exams are totally useless. the SAT or Social Appitude Test is a waste of money and time. It has been proven to effectively show how the kid will do in his 1st year in college and that is it. Mainly it just tests your ability to adapt to different thinking styles. The ACT or Academic Comprehension Test is also a waste of time. Why? Mainly because the ACT makes you thin out your knowledge on a whole slew of different topics. This is in reverse logic to what college really demands, which is a narow course of study and knowledge.

They are replacing the SAT this year. It's really plugging one hole in a sinking ship though. Way too many kids are going to college these days. Way too much money is getting handed out for free... to "balance the ethnicity of the learning environment." College used to be about how smart you were... Now... it is how black, or who hispanic, or how many sports you can play while copying off of the smart guy sitting next to you in that calc class. :)

Diversity is nice, but not when it is coming at the expense of someone else. The university I go to has a "month of some ethnic group" each month... but do we see any "White history month." no... that would be racist. Racism has been turned on its head and now the racism towards the majority is growing. If you dare to speak out on it, you are labeled a bigot by the minority. Sometimes I wonder how much peace can be seen if we all just gouged out our eyes and we would have to base our perceptions of people based upon what they say... rather than on what they look like.

:cheers:

PS. The dutch and American systems seem similair in High School... but over here it isn't strictly forced... IE.. you can move back and forth between the three. (that's usually why the top 10% of our graduating classes are all on the football team and cheerleaders ;) )

[Ben Nevis]

you can move back and forth between the three
I didn't entirely explain this correctly. In the Dutch system you can always move back and if you move forth you have to do the same year again. So if you finished year 3 of the MAVO, you can go to year three of the HAVO. So you have one year delay, when moving up. But the system is indeed more rigid than the US system. I guess the biggest difference is indeed that we can only go to university after having finished the VWO, thereby ensuring a certain level and not needing a test.
Something else I forgot to mention is that we only have public universities (there is an exception, but that one is really small). This makes the level of the universities roughly the same, which is another big difference with the US. Approximately 10% goes to a university, I wonder whether someone knows what that number is in your country. Lord Turylon, do you know the percentage that goes to college in the US?
Usually in university we get one, one and a half or two years of basic knowledge on the subject chosen. So everybody does the same courses for that period. After that we can specialize and choose our courses.
Most studies are four years. Physics, chemics and some other beta-courses are five years and medicine is six years.

[Sir Turylon]

Originally posted by Ben Nevis

Something else I forgot to mention is that we only have public universities (there is an exception, but that one is really small). This makes the level of the universities roughly the same, which is another big difference with the US. Approximately 10% goes to a university, I wonder whether someone knows what that number is in your country. Lord Turylon, do you know the percentage that goes to college in the US?

not sure... but it is probably on the Department of Education's website.

We have several different types of colleges. Junior, 2 year, 4 year, 6 year, both private and public. Then there are also vocational and technical schools... so many different options.

[Ben Nevis]

I agree with you Lord Turylon that the "minority problems" are not handled very well in the US. Such regulations such as quota legislation only create an us vs. them atmosphere and that is exactly the opposite of what these regulations try to achieve. Employees that are hired or promoted due to quota legislation don't function as well, due to the lack of respect they get from other collegues (and not necessarily as a result of thier capabilities). And if you are a minority hired or promoted based on your capabilities everybody will think this promotion was due to the quota legislation, thus you don't get the respect you deserve either. Integration shouldn't be forced upon people by goverment, the results will be opposite. People have to do it themselves.