how could KoH2 sell MUCH better without disappoint the core-fans?

[mrwakka]

As a KoH fan & TW(total war) fan i would say that i do like some of the differences, and some not so much, if i had to make three additions or changes heres my pick:


1: KoH already has a better diplomacy system from what i've seen when compared to TW, but it could still be greatly added to, much like the above posters suggested regarding family, vassals, and being able to see other kingdoms motives and what it would take to get them on your side.

Not really much to add to it except perhaps have to manage your generals more so, keep them in check and at the ready, maybe if you have no heir be able to adopt one as a son? (same for all really i suppose)

And as an aside if you have them die have someone replace them, a lieutenant or their own son, maybe at 50% their level?

2: Multiplayer campaigns would indeed be awesome, i am unsure why it has never been done, is it hard to add, or do developers not think players would want to spend such a long time in a game together?

Smaller map campaigns would be fine, but large ones would be superb as well, i know at least for myself me and a few friends would have a good deal of fun conquering all of europe over the course of a month.

3: Not a high priority i suppose, but kingdom customization, i would like a bit more choice, it is my kingdom after all, why can't i do X, such as call myself a king instead of earl, or emperor if i choose(or at least tie these to your kingdom size.), maybe select my own kingdom colors and symbol, and especially have some choice over the kingdoms special unit, jerusalem has none, and some nations have rather useless ones.


Theres more i would add, such as battle improvements, (to chaotic imho as is,) and navy units, (sea control as britain was always a top priority for me when i played TW,) but the request was for three so there it is.

[mammix]

you can also make some scenarios- eg. one knight wants to become a king, he shows us his history: his battles, small campagnes...

also, i have some ideas about types of multiplayer:

Mafia & Policemen - one kingdom becomes mafia player, one- police kingdom. no-one knows who is who, and wins the first player who kills king/qonqueres mafia country (if you are a policeman)/ police country (if you are mafia player)

Global war- every country is at war with the rest. the best player after eg. 20 minutes wins the game.

[Syagrius]

The game is great as it is. I have more fun with the tactical battles of KoH because they are more user friendly and kicker to play and to load than in TW games. :go: I prefer ease of play than 3D eyecandy.

[kevcole33]

i agree with most many of the posts here. if there were 3 major changes here is what i would like to see:

1. diplomacy deeper. maybe use espionage/spying as a bargaining chip.... like being able to say to a neighboring nation, "i will infiltrate kingdom "X" for you, in return for: (choices) if a spy is found he could then rat out the other nation and there would be consequesnces for both nations.

2. zoom and changing angles on player controlled battles. ...we should at least be able to see behind buildings when we need to. c'mon!

3. peace or diplomacy with rebel armies. i'd like to be able to maybe offer "famous rebel" armies something as an option. maybe gold or food at least or maybe even grant them a title in the royal court. i think rebel armies should be more than just a plundering group that your only option is to smash them. maybe if you could use diplomacy but lose kingdom power in the process as you may be perceived as a weak nation.

nothing too drastic that would change the core components of the game here i don't think.
graphics are fine the way they are, people.

[Sverrir]

1:
Drop player controlled battles entirely. You can NOT compete with M2TW on this front. Don't waste resources here. Keep battles a more strategic affair. Besides the AI for battles is always poor (it is in M2TW) and makes the game entirely unbalanced in the player's favor.

2:
Focus on the strategic elements of the game- the dynasties, the diplomacy, the economies, trade, espionage, etc...

3:
Increase the depth of playing your royal house a bit- not to Crusader Kings levels, but keep it still fun. Internal political intrigue might be fun.I totally agree with this 3 points.

I personaly very seldom fight the battles out myself. I'm very happy how the computer handles the battles in strategic view now. So if you change something there, please make sure, we still can choose to play it like in a strategy game.

[Scott716]

I like it as is...I don't need the Total War type battles or a graphics heavy game as I think that ruins most games including that one. I do like the option to play out a battle though with simple graphics the way it is. They can still expand on the other things mentioned and keep the option for a simple tactical game. Why would you want less options?. It's a fun side part of the game and doesn't hurt anything for having it, only adds.

It's funny how people who play Total War or Crusader Kings want to come in and try and mold it onto their games. I think this game beats them both for pure fun and I want BSS to do it their own way not anyone elses, they seem to be doing pretty good without being another company.

[Angryminer]

@Scott716:
I do believe that this thread does make sense. You're right though, it's surely not our job to tell BSS how KoH2 should look like.
But I think what this thread mainly is for is writing down what sets KoH apart from games like Crusader Kings, EUIII or the TW series. Because that's what a sequel should improve on.
So the question "How could KoH be improved?" is basically the same as "Why do we like KoH more than CK or TW?"
For me, e.g., those other games always failed to give me the feeling of ruling a historic empire.

How BSS achieves the improvements in detail is their job. Still it's a good idea to say what destinct features we would like, because it gives the developers an idea of what we liked and what we didn't like.

Angryminer

[mrwakka]

It's funny how people who play Total War or Crusader Kings want to come in and try and mold it onto their games. I think this game beats them both for pure fun and I want BSS to do it their own way not anyone elses, they seem to be doing pretty good without being another company.


I agree with what angryminer said, but also wanted to add this:

It is not so much a attempt to mold it into tw or ck, rather it is that each title offers good aspects that can be learned from, just as they could both learn from koh in some respect.

I enjoy KoH alot, i've played it since release off and on and seriously hope theres a sequel, but that doesn't mean i've not seen a feature in X game and thought it would interesting if implemented on top of the already solid basis of KoH.

[Madmax]

Scott, a new KoH game will bring to improvements, and will need some marketable improvement. I mean, they have to sell a new game, they cannot take KoH, make it better and larger and hoping of having more sells... IMHO

The questions of the thread can also be seen as two. The first: why do you love KoH and what should NOT change, for us fun, to continue to love playing it; the second question is: what can be added, which can be marketable, that can add more to the game and attract more customers.

I think Angryminer answered the first question in the best way, I completely agree with him and I believe that the most of the fans have a similar understanding. The second question gives more troubles, I think is normal. The most obvious way is to take examples from other games and "round" these ideas to KoH.

[Tempest]

Personally, I don't need much eye candy. There are far more important things like that. But then of course, I'm a freak who still plays TIE Fighter every now and then. :P
The sad fact is, if it doesn't look good, there will not be many people who will see the deeper values of the game since they won't care to go looking for them. So I'm afraid that state of the art graphics are quite essential since it's needed as a bait. :wink: This doesn't mean it needs to be 3D. Who said that good and nice graphics need to be 3D?

A second, very important point is to include a decent MP mode next time. The one in KoH is a bad joke, really.

But the most essential thing to make KoH2 sell better than KoH is MARKETING. Sunflowers did a shamefully bad job at advertising this game. Even when the game was new, you could ask anyone and nobody had ever heard of it.
The game came to my attention because there was a 2-page article in a gaming magazine. But that was an independent test and had nothing to do with Sunflowers. Apart from that I saw *nothing*. So next time you release a game, tell people about it. That might help. :wink:

[Scott716]

I can see your points, and would agree there are ideas from other games they could use but not many. I would say more from Crusader Kings then MTW(especially regarding fleshing out the royal families more). The one thing I want to make sure they keep is the fun factor, I think KOH straddles that fine line between to much detail and not enough and I love it for that.

I could care less about 3D graphics, in fact as I see more and more shallow 3D games come out that add nothing to game play I have come to appreciate well done 2D games even more.

I would also agree that KOH got shafted on publicity, and word of mouth has really given this game a second life. I don't think you have to totally change a KOH2 to attract players, it's getting a good rep and just needs some tweaks here and there. I know they have to add enough to make it worth it but don't go so crazy you change the heart of the game.

[Soldior]

No no they only need to add a multilayer its really upsets me that first i bought Cossacks 2 Napoleonic wars and it was a great game but sadly no AI to fight against which was extremely disappointing and now i bought KOH and there is no multilayer only a traditional firefly game excuse ! (i know black sea)

anyway the real boost that would make this game out of this world would be MULTIPLAYER. and maybe add something innovative about it.

And no graphics that doesn't work in this genre look at other games of the same type and another thing shoot the publicity guy this game i never heard of and i am addicted now. :)

EDIT: i meant Sun flower and this happend to me also with Knights and Merchants :(

[Denisold]

A few thoughts on making KoH2 more popular.

Bring Existing Great Visuals To Forefront

I don’t think BSS needs to go the ‘great eye candy’ route for KoH2. To me the 2D artwork, and its details, is already superb. Just look at villages, monasteries, harbors, and the major cities, that show on the battle screen.

The problem for me is that these great visuals are basically ‘hidden’ deep in the game – ie the great artwork only shows if you are playing manual battles. I suspect that most players use auto battle nearly all the time and hence the great artwork seldom shows on their screens (in my case I may play perhaps 50+ auto battles before I chose manual battle and get treated to the great visuals).

Bring the existing great visuals from deep in the game to the forefront of game play would help make KoH2 more popular (especially for first time players, or for those who aren’t hard core KoH players – ie the bulk of potential game purchasers). Make the ever-changing city and province views a click away from the main screen (this implies that strategic city and province building becomes more important to game play than what exists in KoH).

KoH Is Only ½ Built

IMO the game is only ½ built. What exists as KoH is already great – but building on KoH and finishing the 2nd half as KoH2 (including many of the great suggestions that reside in the ‘KoH2 Wish List’ thread) could make this game a ‘blockbuster’. Of course this implies that the marketing is done thoroughly.

Without KoH2 Existing KoH Popularity Can Only Diminish From Here

Without moving soon to KoH2, the existing core players (ie the few 100 or so that still seriously play this game after 2 years, and are participating in this forum) will diminish and eventually die out. The last patch gave the game a brief new breath, but IMO BSS needs to get on with KoH2 if the KoH franchise is to survive.

[Elvain]

Without KoH2 Existing KoH Popularity Can Only Diminish From Here

Without moving soon to KoH2, the existing core players (ie the few 100 or so that still seriously play this game after 2 years, and are participating in this forum) will diminish and eventually die out. The last patch gave the game a brief new breath, but IMO BSS needs to get on with KoH2 if the KoH franchise is to survive.I agree.

I think that further support of KoH (1) makes almost no sense, though it would be great to have another patch. But from marketing point of view why should BSS bother to make a patch for a game which is slowly dying out. (Even here even the former most excited KoH fans have moved to other parts of forum)

[Madmax]

many fans read much, play even more, but don't often post :wink:
anyway I agree with Elvain and Denisold, the future for BSS lies in a KoH2 game, in new sells.

[Carbon]

Keep the 2-D graphics please, if graphics are so important then I guess perfecting the graphics would be good but no 3-D!

Also keeping KoH's basics while expanding the game wouldn't hurt, adding more diplomacy options such as threaten, taunt, complament, embargo etc. Expanding the overall area, introducing lower north Africa, the whole middle east, even as far as medieval China would be pretty cool. Expanding the time frame would also be good, starting from say 5th century (Around 400 AD) to 15 century (Around 1400s), this time frame would still include KoH's medieval basic gameplay while adding eras like Dark Ages, Reformation, Exploration etc.

[Soldior]

I agree with the above no 3D is needed but as always marketing departments take over and mess up games they make them cheesy copy cats and so on but in reality when a game like KOH comes along i play them more and i realy like them.

[Wolfitz]

I personally beilieve if KOH 2 has the capacity to offer Multiplayer on the entire European, or whatever, map then they would attract a huge audience of people. Also, like all of the great suggestions previously to my post should be considered; they all are credible. Angryminers suggestions seem to be very good, to me atleast.:go: I love this game, one of my favourites; but I stopped playing it because it got a little too easy, and no I haven't really played the new patch yet in depth, and the whole battle thing got a little annoying. But all I know is that if KOH2 came out, I would freak out, and be one of the first to purchase it, eventhough I am bogged down in the Wild West of North America, I would still manage to get it from Europe, I hope.:biggrin:

[Denisold]

Also keeping KoH's basics while expanding the game wouldn't hurt, adding more diplomacy options such as threaten, taunt, complament, embargo etc. Expanding the overall area, introducing lower north Africa, the whole middle east, even as far as medieval China would be pretty cool. Expanding the time frame would also be good, starting from say 5th century (Around 400 AD) to 15 century (Around 1400s), this time frame would still include KoH's medieval basic gameplay while adding eras like Dark Ages, Reformation, Exploration etc.

Hi Carbon – I like your 1st sentence, but I’m having trouble with the other suggestions regarding expanding the map, and adding more time periods.

I suspect that BSS will have enough problems (if they attempt KoH2) just including the many great ‘game play’ suggestions (in the threads) into the existing KOH game structure. I think making it bigger, and broader historically, would just be a massive additional problem for BSS.

The real problem is that KoH’s current level of game play isn’t quite good enough to be sustainable much beyond the initial months of first playing the game. Yes we all have enjoyed KoH but after many of us owning and playing it for a few years it has ‘run out of gas’, and its overall popularity is faltering.

Adding more map size, more time periods won’t solve the problem (the map already has 150+ provinces, 3 time periods over 400 years of history, and 3 levels of difficulty, to play) – bigger isn’t better. This game really needs a full ‘game play’ overhaul – just make what is already in KoH better.

[Elvain]

I completely agree with expansion of both, the map and the time frame.
But without large gameplay changes they make no sense for KoH2!

And I think I've made enough statements how I think KoH2 should be changed - deeper diplomacy, bigger diferences between cultures and religions, campaign multiplayer, more realistic economy etc.

The things that should survive from KoH is 2D graphic, the rest can snd should be developed more..