View Full Version : Battle of Grunwald!
Today July 15 it's 594 years since the battle of Grunwald. This is one of the most important events in Polish history and for Polish self awareness. If you read the whole page you'll see that it was not just Poles and Lithuanians involved in the battle, but also the whole Slavic west and east. So it should be an important day for all the northern Slavs, IMO!
Well, enjoy:
Battle of Grunwald (http://www.kresy.co.uk/grunwald.html)
Thanks, Ledhead for that link. I always enjoy when the underdog rises up in victory!
similar, just without as much fiction:
http://ldmuziejus.mch.mii.lt/Naujausiosparodos/Zalgirio_paroda.en.htm
Thanks, Ledhead for that link. I always enjoy when the underdog rises up in victory!
...and the Hungarian king Sigismund was about to stab the Poles/Lithuanians in the back after their clash with the Teutons, but the teutonic defeat was so great that Sigismund called off the plans for invading Poland realising that he then had to fight the Poles alone. And after Grunwald they seemed unbeatable... 8)
What a great description of the battle - IMO a fine example of what can be achived with wisdom and determination.
What a great description of the battle - IMO a fine example of what can be achived with wisdom and determination.
actually the link that Leadhead gave is a fictional description - almost every paragraph contains something made up from author's immagination. It is mostly based on fictional literature - namely HENRYK SIENKEWICZ, "Krzyzacy" - a romantical Polish fiction, which was written I think in XIX century, or beginning of XX th.
The link I gave is the most accurate description I could find on the web, but it is not saying much... It is quite poor in itself...
I wish I could find a better one, because that was very interesting and important battle...
The order of the battle is correctly described. Even the "scene" with the Wladyslaws personal secretary stopping the teutonic knight with his own horse.
If it all is not quite true i still think it was a good story - i think the author has got the essens of the story and filled in the missing gaps himself, but i don't mind that - not many stories from that time are intirely true since it is often the victor who writes the story.
The order of the battle is correctly described. Even the "scene" with the Wladyslaws personal secretary stopping the teutonic knight with his own horse.
The way I imagine from all the reading - the battle went like this:
1. It began in afternoon
I saw a few reasons in different sources:
pro-polish sources: Jagiello wanted teutons to be more exausted in the sun (in that case the article you gave is illogical, for it mentiones that Poles annd Lithuanians wore heavy plate armor - which must get quite hot)
other speculations: Poles were very slow to assemble, and Lithuanians - who had a more disciplined and experienced army - were waiting for them.
Have to remember here - that Lithuania was in constant state of war, while Poland had a long period of mostly peace and prosperity.
2. Lithuanians attacked first
3. Teutons directed their heavy cavalry and crusader voluinteers against Lithuanians, and after about an hour of fighting - Lithuanians started to withdraw.
Now, based on new research - namely on the letter written by one of Teutonic guests soon after the battle - the Lithuanian withdrawal was a maneuver and a trap.
4. Poles join the battle
5. Teutons that pursued Lithuanians return and join the battle. They believe they had won. But battle continues, because the remainder of Lithuanian army and Polish reinforcements hold the badly pressed right flank. Poles also fight successfully on the left.
6. This goes on for a while and is the critical part of the battle, during which Teutonic and Polish reinforcements join battle.
7. Main Lithuanian force returns and hits Teutons from the exposed flank. Simultaneusly - on the other side - Czech mercenaries hit the other Teutonic flank.
8. Teutons are slaughtered
Regarding the secretary - that was put there by Dlugosh. Coincidentaly - that secretary was Dlugosh's patron.
It may have been true, though.
The main thing that seems the most made up - is the notion of Polish and Lithuanian footmen armed with clubs. Now that is just silly. Who would round up peasants with clubs and march into enemy territory?
Besides, the sources describe Lithuanian army as well armed and disciplined. I would assume Polish army was similar.
The notion that Teutons were much more experienced comes from romantical times, I think.
Poles and Lithuanians had a more numerous and well equiped armies - and the result of the battle proves that.
Well everything is pro something the most important thing is how it ended and that is the truth
@1.
Both armies were on the move (Teutons vs. Allies).
The allies first feigned an attack in the western part of Prussia. The main attack was straight north to Malbork (germ. Marienburg) through central Prussia.
At Kurzetnik at the Drewca river at the 10 of July the Teutons managed to fortify both banks of the river, but the Allies decided not to force a crossing but to bypass the rivers headwaters eastward. Then no major river would be between the Allies and Malbork.
The 14 July the Allies set up camp for the night near Grunwald (Tannenberg). At 6 o'clock on the morning of the 15th the Teutons reached the fields of Grunwald and positioned themselves for battle. They had force marched after crossing the Drewca further north.
The Allies did deploy for battle at once it was just king Wladyslaw who didn't join his army until 30-60 minutes later as he attained mass.
The Teutons could have struck a devastating blow to the Allies had they surprised attacked the allied camp! But the Teutons wasn't sure if a trap didn't await them in the woods, where the Allies had bivaqued and later deployed for battle. And the whole Polish baggage train hadn't yet reached the camp at 06.00...
@2.
Duke Vytautas (of Lithuania) spoted a disorder in the Teutonic left flank and decided to take advantage of this and called for a charge at approx. 09.00. So there was a 3 hour wait for the Teutons in the summer morning sun, in full armour... :sick:
@3.
In one of the latest works published about Grunwald 1410, the "Tannenberg 1410" by Stephen Turnbull in the Campaign series no. 122 publ. by Osprey Publishing 2003, Turnbull claims that the Lithuanians retreat wasn't a battle tactic but that they withdrew from battle in full speed. He claims this because (1)ALL the Lithuanians started to retreat and not just one unit as should be performed à la Genghis Khan. (2)The counterattack when it came was late in the afternoon when, at least, some of the Lithuanians returned. "This seems rather late to be a swift riposte to a precipitate Teutonic pursuit". (3)"Finally, the result was not a light cavalry envelopment of the Order's troops but the shattering of the allied right wing and apparent widespread panick - hardly the desired outcome".
I guess the last hasn't been said in this topic...
as far as I remember there are few main sources about the battle.
1. Dlugosh - XV century Polish historian and patriot - who wrote about 50 years after the battle, in which he did not participate - he was a boy at the time. Dlugosh's patron was that king's secretary - Olesnicky - who has a story of his own in Dlugosh's work - about how he saved the king and stuff...
Dlugosh supposedly based it on chronicles that were written during the campaign by the allies. However those did not survive.
All that survived is a short version (about 2 pages as I understand) of those chronicles - supposedly made by the Polish priest for the mass speach. And that version also does not say that Lithuanians run, but that they withdrew in the beginning.
Dlugosh is the only one that says that Lithuanians run and did not come back, and that Poles won by themselves.
Incidently - Dlugosh did not like Lithuanians. He describes Lithuanians as barbarians in his work.
Interestingly - Lithuanian Chronicles, whitten in XVI century - says the opposite - that Lithuanians won the battle by themselves and that Poles just stood there and did nothing...
By the way - Polish casualties were very low, while Lithuanians lost many soldiers (according to some sources - half of the army)...
2. Posilge - Order's chronicler wrote his chronicle soon after the battle. He mentions that Lithuanians were "pushed back" in the beginning and not "beaten" - like Dlugosh says. Also, Posilge says that the battle was lost by the Order when pagans (Lithuanians) attacked from the side and mercenaries (Czechs) from the other side.
3. The Anonymous letter that was found recently by Ekdahl - Svedish historian. That letter was written by the guest of Teutonic Order, who participated in the battle - to the Master of Teutonic Order, soon after the battle. The letter warns that in the future Order should be careful when enemy appears to be running, because that can be a trap like was in the "big" battle, and even though it seems like the battle is won - it is almost as good as lost.
I am not aware of any other substantial sources about the way battle went.
*EDIT* - looked up and adjusted some statements.
Hi guys!
Nice to have you here!
I know that it is a bit too late, but here you have some pictures of that great battle, one of the biggest battles of Medieval Europe!
Press here (http://www.pinakoteka.zascianek.pl/matejko/images/grunwald.jpg)
Best wishes
Hipolit
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