Majorly annoyed

[achkarou]

Ok, so i get it teh AI is cheating and has lots of money... and as many of you pointed out in the game's defence it is wut makes the game "hard" and a player should be smarter and create a strategy...

i agree

but, i had come up with a strategy of doing damage to the AI by taking over his satellite islands and knocking out his fleet and main island warehouse... the AI was at merchant level when i started this... i uccessfully eradicated his satellite islands wich had little defence... and had destroyed every single ship and shipyard as well as the main warehouse on his main island.... so now i though he has no connection with the world and will soon run out of goods required to sustain his population at merchant level....

yet 2 hrs into the game he is still doing perfectly fine :bash:

i am now building up a huge army to attack his main island (i tend to lose a lot of soldiers cause im not very quick with attacking/defending when in a battle...)

but i don't understand why the AI is standing strong economically and socially with just a main island wich shodul only be able to support citizens (he has alcohol, grain and tobacco on it)

any thoughts?

[zippyriver]

Perhaps he is getting his required goods from trade (free trader and the other AIs).

[Dobber]

Perhaps he is getting his required goods from trade (free trader and the other AIs).

How could they do that without a warehouse?

He said he had wiped away their connection to the outside world!

[zippyriver]

Your right. :bash:

I'm going to bed.
:sad:

[nullspace]

Hmm, when I blockade AIs, their people riot and they eventually give up and quit. It takes a while, but if there are no islands to colonize, you can let them pay you for peace. You can probably speed it up by fraternizing with Amin Sahir and using his power, and using some of the lodge activities.

[Eagleclaw]

The AI can "generate" tools without ore mine, ore melter, tool smith, honoured guests and without trading. This is easy to verify by playing a game without honoured guests and without the free trader. Remember to use revealed map.

It is quite possible that the AI can "generate" other goods the same way.

Another explanation to the tool puzzle could be that the AI use less material than we do for the same buildings.

[achkarou]

After a long while people began to riot and soem houses were destroyed and others devolved to citizen...(at least 2 hours of blockade of teh island) but the AI never gave up, not from this alone anyway...

I had to attack w troops and successfully take over the marketplaces and the AI gave up only when just once market place was left.... such a pain

Another problem i was having is that once i took over the island the population was in such distress from riots and lack of goods/food that it was giving mea huge negative balance :S... and even after i took the last marketplace over, i didn't really have any building tools or goods on that island.... :S so i woudl have to haul everything from my main island to do "repairs"

so i just bulldozed all the structures excepts for the towers, training camps and marketplaces...

any suggestions how to take over an island in a well functioning state?
i guess thats what war does to a city tho :P

[Dobber]

I always level everything and start fresh! I don't like the way the AI builds! I do take a ship load of tools and wood with me and build a warehouse on the coast and then build markets as I move across the island with my troops, instead of using troops to take their destroyed market.

[zippyriver]

Another explanation to the tool puzzle could be that the AI use less material than we do for the same buildings.

This appears to be truth. Now granted it was not a full blown test, just a peek, but I did make the following observation. I did a score check early on in the game to check things out. Up to just before colonizing an island, all scores were equal. Using slow-motion so the time gap would be minimum, and to and mimick the AI. The AI just colonized an island and placed 2 markets and a town center. I followed suit and placed the same, then ended the game (first set of numbers).
The second set of numbers is after each placed 3 more markets (5 market, 1 town ctr total each)

Capital (wealth: points through coin in the game. 0,1 per coin):
At start both show 1k capital. At 3min it was at 994 (each, no WH yet)
AI: 987 pts // Me: 907 pts
AI: 975 pts // Me: 835 pts

Balance (balance: points through balance in game. 4 pts per gold coin):
At start both show -120. At 3 min it had not changed (ship maint 30g x4 most likely)
AI: -220 pts // Me: -220 pts
AI: -280 pts // Me: -280 pts

Buildings (building operating costs X2):
AI: 50 pts // Me: 50 pts
AI: 80 pts // Me: 80 pts

Goods (1 point per 10T goods in warehouse):
AI: 9 pts // Me: 8 pts
AI: 9 pts // Me: 5 pts

It sure does look like the AI at hard gets it buildings for free. I didn't look to see if the same holds true at lower difficulty levels.

As an aside, it looks like damaged small war ships of the AI can move at full speed too, making it difficult to finish them off when they start running away.

I don't mind making concessions at hard level. But there is a difference between that and the AI playing a completly different game. :(

[achkarou]

when you take over the AI's main settlement at its surrender, you also get his/her bank balance. Since the AI cheat on money is not that they get "credits" - but rather that they can keep spending into a negative balance rather than losing at -$5,000 (I think that's the amount) like a human player -- you can get a huge negative balance and a crippled settlement for your trouble. :scratch:

Hmm... interesting thing is that when i finally took over the last of AI's warehouses, after he fled, i didn't get his overall bank balance...my overall money amount didn't change but what did change is the monthly expeditures/profits due to all the buildings that i've acquired...so i also demolished everything including teh roads leaving only the market places, the shipyard (for repairs) and some military buildings.


I don't think what you said about the AI's going into debt is true tho... because when you exit the game and you view the score screen, the AI that i beat had a high score for his balance...i don't imagine it would be true if he was in debt... would it?


You haven't mentioned using any "Lodge Activities" to soften-up the AI. Did/do you use any?:scratch:

I did use some lodge activites, i blew up his original shipyard and used the bomb later on in the war to eradicate some warehouses, also used spy, poisoner and pickpocket but i had trouble using the demagogue and traitor activities.... after i tried leftclicking the demagogue on some prodcution facility or the traitor on some of his troops during battle nothing happened... and i don't mean the attempt failed causei woudl be informed if that occured, but no action happened it like i wasn't able to use it/activate it at all.... was i not doing it right?

I'm sure that the AI did not slip one in on you, but I am surprised to learn that the AI is not extremely aggressive in rebuilding the warehouse at new location(s). :scratch:

He did try to rebuild the warehouses and the shipyards but my warships were waiting for it and demolished them soon after before any ships left the island or any trade ships came in to the harbour :biggrin:

I think he fraternized with Tetonka because i got about 4 lightning storms hit my islands but i am not sure why everyone likes that power because it did minimal damage to my islands, maybe 6-7 houses burned down overall and a couple of production buildings... and i only plopped a few fire stations on my main island once the storm started .... i say it is weaka**

I fraternized with the Aztecs because i needed talismans as my colonial good for the aristocrats. The power of teh Aztecs is not very effective eitehr tho.. i can't say i noticed my opponents units being much weaker after i used it...

[Eagleclaw]

It sure does look like the AI at hard gets it buildings for free. I didn't look to see if the same holds true at lower difficulty levels.

Actually the AI players pay 10 percent of the cost we human players must pay. The effective value of the 10.000 starting amount at the hard level is 100.000 for the AI.


I don't mind making concessions at hard level. But there is a difference between that and the AI playing a completly different game. :(

I agree with you entirely. It makes playing without the queen and without the free trader meaningless against the AI.

[nullspace]

After a long while people began to riot and soem houses were destroyed and others devolved to citizen...(at least 2 hours of blockade of teh island) but the AI never gave up, not from this alone anyway...

I suppose they might not give up since they can still support citizens. But he'll still never be a significant threat to you after this, so you might as well just make peace. His navy is devastated, and he won't be able to colonize new islands to advance, so there's no harm in letting him rot on his initial island. I think the only real reason to invade would be if you need his island's fertility or resources.

any suggestions how to take over an island in a well functioning state?
i guess thats what war does to a city tho :P
I can't think of any way other than shipping in massive amounts of the things the people will demand. That would take a lot of planning, production of surpluses beyond what your own people need, and managing trade ships while you're also trying to fight. Plus, supplying populations on two islands is a logistical nightmare anyway, so I think razing the city is the best think to do.

[zippyriver]

Actually the AI players pay 10 percent of the cost we human players must pay. The effective value of the 10.000 starting amount at the hard level is 100.000 for the AI.

I agree with you entirely. It makes playing without the queen and without the free trader meaningless against the AI.

10% of the coin cost, yeah. That I could see in the capital score in how it decreased a lot less for the same buildings. The free part I was referring to is the supplies requirement (tools and wood), because the score for collected goods did not change at all, even while the AI capital did decrease some. To me that indicated a much cheaper coin cost, and zero material cost (for those first building types at least). But as I said, it was not a full blown test where I checked at several stages. I only checked at 3 points (start, after Wh and 2 mkts, and finally with the total buildings mentioned).

The patch notes for the next patch mentions some tweaks to the AI. Perhaps they toned down the freebies (or tracked down the bug, if that be the case). One can hope.

[Maxie Zeus]

but, i had come up with a strategy of doing damage to the AI by taking over his satellite islands and knocking out his fleet and main island warehouse... the AI was at merchant level when i started this... i uccessfully eradicated his satellite islands wich had little defence... and had destroyed every single ship and shipyard as well as the main warehouse on his main island.... so now i though he has no connection with the world and will soon run out of goods required to sustain his population at merchant level....

yet 2 hrs into the game he is still doing perfectly fine :bash:

Hmm, when I blockade AIs, their people riot and they eventually give up and quit.


After a long while people began to riot and soem houses were destroyed and others devolved to citizen...(at least 2 hours of blockade of teh island) but the AI never gave up, not from this alone anyway...

I had to attack w troops and successfully take over the marketplaces and the AI gave up only when just once market place was left.... such a pain

Perhaps it depends upon the particular AI player?

Your post made me curious about the blockade strategy (I'm new to the game, and hadn't really tried it), so I used an old game of mine to test it out. I tried it first against von Schallert, then against Lady Agatha, and got different results ech time.

(Background: I was playing on a large, easy world against three easy opponents--Jorgensen was the third AI--and had let things progress to the citizen level. I had a single, self-sufficient settlement on a Grain-Sugarcane-Tobacco island and so was able to support a 23-ship navy while still running a surplus. This is why chose it for the test; I didn't have to worry about keeping the settlement running while I concentrated on the wars.)

In both cases I was able to pluck my enemy's satellite islands and then tighten a blockade on their main islands. Von Schallert was on a Grain-Hops-Honey island, but he had no local food chains at the time I attacked him. Not long after I put him in the death grip he erected some bakery chains, but I used a plague of locusts to decimate the grain and hops crops. Not long afterwards, his citizens started rioting and he was never able to get control of the flames. As each house burned out he would put up pioneer houses, some of which did evolve into settler houses. But not long after the last citizen house collapsed he announced he was abandoning the archipelago.

In all this time, I had landed only one troop and captured only one out-of-the-way marketplace. He was a castaway I'd picked up after defeating some ships von Schallert got from the queen, and having nothing better to do I landed him just to make mischief; but von Schallert never responded to the provocation, though he had half a dozen troops of his own. I mention it only because it might have had something to do with his surrendering.

After knocking out von Schallert (which was a great surprise to me, after reading your post) I decided to try the same strategy against Lady Agatha. Again, I cherrypicked her satellite islands and put a close blockade on her main island. She had bakery and alcohol chains up and running, but like von Schallert she had to import tobacco. Again, I used locusts to put a crimp in her production. In her case, though, two citizen houses went up in flames, and her fire brigades were able to put them out. There followed a long process of citizen houses "devolving" into settler houses.

I didn't let the game run for long after the last citizen house disappeared, because it seemed pretty clear that she could survive quite nicely at the settler level; there was no evidence of strong disaffection in her settlement; and I suspected she'd just sit there at that level as long as I kept the blockade in place.

I then landed some troops and went on a rampage. She never did give up--she kept rebuilding the marketplaces I'd destroyed--even after I closed off all of her beachheads with my own warehouses and marketplaces. Instead, I had to annihilate her. More evidence, I suspect, that a blockade wouldn't have taken her out.

Anyway, that's the long explanation behind my suggestion--that different AI personalities are more or less prone to give up if knocked back down to the Settler level.