View Full Version : "Theories about the Easter"
zippyriver
05-04-2007, 22:47
Many, perhaps most, Pagan religions in the Mediterranean area had a major seasonal day of religious celebration at or following the Spring Equinox. Cybele, the Phrygian fertility goddess, had a fictional consort who was believed to have been born via a virgin birth. He was Attis, who was believed to have died and been resurrected each year during the period MAR-22 to MAR-25. "About 200 B.C. mystery cults began to appear in Rome just as they had earlier in Greece. Most notable was the Cybele cult centered on Vatican hill ...Associated with the Cybele cult was that of her lover, Attis (the older Tammuz, Osiris, Dionysus, or Orpheus under a new name). He was a god of ever-reviving vegetation. Born of a virgin, he died and was reborn annually. The festival began as a day of blood on Black Friday and culminated after three days in a day of rejoicing over the resurrection." 3
Wherever Christian worship of Jesus and Pagan worship of Attis were active in the same geographical area in ancient times, Christians "used to celebrate the death and resurrection of Jesus on the same date; and pagans and Christians used to quarrel bitterly about which of their gods was the true prototype and which the imitation."
Many religious historians believe that the death and resurrection legends were first associated with Attis, many centuries before the birth of Jesus. They were simply grafted onto stories of Jesus' life in order to make Christian theology more acceptable to Pagans. Others suggest that many of the events in Jesus' life that were recorded in the gospels were lifted from the life of Krishna, the second person of the Hindu Trinity. Ancient Christians had an alternative explanation; they claimed that Satan had created counterfeit deities in advance of the coming of Christ in order to confuse humanity. 4 Modern-day Christians generally regard the Attis legend as being a Pagan myth of little value. They regard Jesus' death and resurrection account as being true, and unrelated to the earlier tradition.
It's just another day. But thank you anyway.
Happy Easter!
and to those who don't celebrate, enjoy the holiday and enjoy the "just another day", and be tolerant and let the ones who celebrate it enjoy it as feast
If you don't hold Easter why do you bother to post here? On your birthday those who don't celebrate don't come up to you and don't say: "hey, dude, this is just another day. Thank you, but why the hell do you celebrate? Your celebration is nothing"
It is you who shold start to be tolerant :wink:
... and to those who don't celebrate, enjoy the holiday and enjoy the "just another day", and be tolerant and let the ones who celebrate it enjoy it as feast ...
Prior to A.D. 325, Easter was variously celebrated on different days of the week, including Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. In that year, the Council of Nicaea was convened by the Roman Emperor Constantine. It issued the "Easter Rule" (for the Roman Christian "establishment") which states that Easter shall be celebrated on the first Sunday that occurs after the first full moon on or after the vernal equinox. However, a caveat must be introduced here. The "full moon" in the rule is the ecclesiastical full moon, which is defined as the fourteenth day of a tabular lunation, where day 1 corresponds to the ecclesiastical New Moon. It does not always occur on the same date as the astronomical full moon. The ecclesiastical "vernal equinox" is always on March 21. Therefore, Easter must be celebrated on a Sunday between the dates of March 22 and April 25.
It also needs to be noted that the Roman calendar of that time has since been modified by western Popes (who fell heir to the Roman Emperors) so that there is a difference between the calendars used by Western Christians and Eastern Christians.
Perhaps that is why some people have come to rely on "Bank Holidays" as a signal when to feast or fast. When the banks are closed, it really must be a holiday, eh? When the astronomers and priests run on different schedules and the calendar on the wall in your house may be different from that on the wall in your neighbor's house - do we really have "global commerce?" Pity the poor folks whose religious observations revolve around "sundown" and the clock is switched about for "daylight savings" - especially on a cloudy day.
What time did you say it is?
:confused: :rolleyes: :wink:
...sorry, but where is the point?
I don't care when and who declared it as holiday. If it has some meaning for large number of people then let them celebrate it and don't argue if the feast should be celebrated on monday, sunday or xday. If you don't celebrate it, who forces you? Isn't it nce that people wish good things to each other? You don't like it? It's your decision...
I'm not a Christian, I like the feast when everyone tries to be nice and remember some tradition. It's nice to stay with your family from time to time and stop thinking on your everyday bussiness. Be it ecclesiastic or bank or pagan or national feast or your birthday.. I don't care I just like when people try to be nice...
so happy Easter to all!!
@ zippyriver: You are a lucky guy. I try to follow in your footsteps to be informative, and the Super Moderators jump all over my case.
:scratch: :silly: :bawling:
So here we are.
I still think it is very interesting how Easter got to be a "moveable feast" and also always has to be on a Sunday.
I also am facinated by the different calendars in use across the world.
:eek: :biggrin: :go:
sorry, but where is the point?
I don't care when and who declared it as holiday. If it has some meaning for large number of people then let them celebrate it and don't argue if the feast should be celebrated on monday, sunday or xday. If you don't celebrate it, who forces you? Isn't it nce that people wish good things to each other? You don't like it? It's your decision...
I'm not a Christian, I like the feast when everyone tries to be nice and remember some tradition. It's nice to stay with your family from time to time and stop thinking on your everyday bussiness. Be it ecclesiastic or bank or pagan or national feast or your birthday.. I don't care I just like when people try to be nice...
so happy Easter to all!!
Exactly, I like eastern/christmas,and all those "holydays" for that reason, because during that time people tend to be nicer and friendlier, all the family/friends get together and share,have fun.
And thus, one of the reasons why I find religion to be hypocritical, because most only fallow that thing to be friendlier to others, better humans, just to say the least, during that time while the rest of the year they might not even say hi.
Why be friendly/nice/get together with family,friends once or twice a year? Why not do it all the time?
Anyways, happy easter, aka, time to get together with family and friends for one day and have a good time.:cheers:
FrankishHero
07-04-2007, 07:28
If you don't celebrate it, who forces you? Isn't it nce that people wish good things to each other? You don't like it? It's your decision...
No it's not. What about easter eggs everywhere you go? Call me sour, but I do NOT need to hear jingle bells at Christmas, I do NOT need to see easter eggs at easter, and I do NOt need to see people dressed up like 'scary' monsters and Halloween.
Religious holidays are an abomination and should be removed. If you want to celebrate Christmas, take up a sickday from work, but don't bother the rest of us with it! [/scrooge]
No it's not. What about easter eggs everywhere you go? Call me sour, but I do NOT need to hear jingle bells at Christmas, I do NOT need to see easter eggs at easter, and I do NOt need to see people dressed up like 'scary' monsters and Halloween.
Religious holidays are an abomination and should be removed. If you want to celebrate Christmas, take up a sickday from work, but don't bother the rest of us with it! [/scrooge]
The things you mentioned are not about Christmass or Easter, they are about Commerce, that's a different story.
You might also say "I llike to watch or play football, but I don't need to be bothered by massess of primitives who go to the stadium and shout on each other and in many cases fight each other." Is fotball itself about it? No. How many people are bored by Football championships etc? though it is by far the most popular sport?
The same with Easter and Christmass, as well as rock concerts, movies, toothpaste and your girl's favourite parfume... but there is little diference: fotball enourages competition and agression while these originaly ecclesiastic feasts encourage people to be nice at least once/twice a year.
It's tradition and also mass society (or you may call it dfemocracy) - majority decides what is going to happen and minority - though has right to do things itself - has to subordinate.
That's the diference. And you know how anti-religious person I am.... But if most of people in the society share the same tradition, it's good they have official holiday instead of every-single-one-having-day-off...
You can take day-off for your personal holiday or your personal celebrations.. those which are shared by most of the society deserve official holidays.
That most of people forgot about the original tradition of Easter/Christmass is different story. As long as they wish all good to the others and do not bother me too much (last Christmass I was shocked that the "artificial christmass atmosphere" didn't touch me at all but when I was at home and we were decorating the tree and baking cakes etc. I felt the spirit finaly.. the same this year's Easter
zippyriver
07-04-2007, 08:52
...but why the hell do you celebrate? Your celebration is nothing"
I never said that. If your going to imply a quote, I would appreciate it if you don't add to my comments.
Also, I never said the celebration was naught. I DO hold close that which is true (according to my beliefs), and celebrate with remembrance the sacrifice made and subsequent resurrection. However that remembrance is not one weekend each year, but every day of my life. You state you are not a Christian. I state that I am, and I do not celebrate "traditional" Easter activities because of that. I find the acceptance and integration of pagan worship rituals into Christian celebrations offensive (Easter is not the only one). Offense not at the masses that follow "tradition", but at the shepherds of flock that should know better. When I see churches advertising egg hunts and the like, I wonder if they truly realize what they are doing.
As for my birthday, I can go with that. Say 700 years from now, people celebrate my birthday but they changed the date of the celebration to match the birthday of my arch rival, Mickey Mouse (just for you Jim :wink: ). All my life I talked about the long term negative repercussions of wearing felt hats with plastic ears, and the eternal benefits one could receive by not wearing them. But alas, 700 years later, everyone is wearing them at my birthday party. So people are celebrating on my enemy's birthday but calling it mine, and following my enemy's dress code and saying it's OK because it's "tradition". I assure you it is not. And I would certainly hope that at some point in time, someone would remind them that I did not stand for those things. However, since you specifically targeted me celebrating my own birthday I offer this. If someone walked up to Jesus and said they wanted to celebrate his birthday during the Winter Solstice and include adorning fir trees with silver and gold, amongst other things, he would have (I believe) informed them that that would be inappropriate.
If you view the holiday as a time well spent with family. A joyous reunion during which time you can relax and have recreation with loved ones, more power to you. And in that light, it does not matter if the theme is bunnies, bulls, beer or bowling. The important thing is the time spent, and you don't need a special holiday for that.
But if you invite me to your annual rodents VS clovens beer bash at the local bowling alley, I am going to decline. And it does not matter to me, on a personal level, if every single other person on the face of the planet goes out and celebrates in like manner. In such things I try to not compromise. I would however, reply to your invitation by saying "I don't celebrate that, but thank you for the offer". And if you asked why, I would tell you my reasons. In my original post, I chose to not wait for an invitation to explain why, but chose to touch on one of the many reasons for it. I didn't go into great depth regarding all of my reasons as that would have been excessive and inappropriate for the thread topic. If someone wanted, out of curiosity, to investigate it further, I placed the source of my quote.
If however, you view the holiday as a Christian holiday, I am self-obligated to my beliefs to at least try and inform you of the nature of the traditions that are being attributed to such celebrations. What you do with that information is entirely up to you.
The exact same thing holds true when I tell someone that I believe Jesus Christ was crucified for my (and their) sins, and was raised from the dead so that I (and they) could apply that sacrifice to my (and their) sins. It is information. What they do with that, is also entirely up to them. I don't bash them over the head with 50 lb Schofield, nor do I tell them all the things they have to change (which, BTW, is nothing. But that is topic best discussed elsewhere). I just give them the information, the "Good News", and live my own convictions.
As for tolerance, I fail to see how providing factual information is being intolerant. I did not say "Are you NUTS! Don't you know your going to rot in hades on a pile of intestinal parasites for doing that?! And your little dog too?!". Please.
Since my reply was not moved with the rest of the posts, I will repeat it here, and it is meant with the most sincerity. I apologize if you took offense at my original post, I was only trying to be informative.
Hint, there is a 'delete' button.
If I deleted every post I made that someone disagreed with or took issue with, I would not need a forum account. And neither would you, eh?. :) And I enjoyed your post, but had a feeling the continuation of the topic would cause a posts move. Which, is fine with me.
..one of the reasons why I find religion to be hypocritical, because most only fallow that thing to be friendlier to others, better humans, just to say the least, during that time while the rest of the year they might not even say hi.
Why be friendly/nice/get together with family,friends once or twice a year? Why not do it all the time?
Indeed :go:
... 700 years from now, people celebrate my birthday but they changed the date of the celebration to match the birthday of my arch rival, Mickey Mouse (just for you Jim). ...
Very, very good! I have to say I have not seen such a good spirited commentary by a Christian believer in a long time. (I hope it is in MM's full-bodied mode.)
I also have to add my ideas about good information on the topic.
Celebrating anyone's birthday serves as a way to mark milestones along their life's path much as cutting a notch in one's hiking staff as one passes an actual milestone on a road serves as a measure of a physical journey. That analogy makes it obivious that celebration or marking of one's birthday after one's death is really sort of a strange custom. One's birth and death dates bracket one's life for historical purposes. There are other dates within those brackets which are likely to be much more worthy of continuing, annual celebration. For example, the date when an artist's defining masterwork was published. Unfortunately, our western society has become fixated on birth dates, with death dates a secondary point.
In the case of Jesus the Religious Figure, one has to suspect that the embellishment of the various milestones of his earthly life has had to do more with improving the job security of the growing number of priests of the growing number of cults which claim him as a God.
One could posit that the two most important points in Jesus' earthly life were his triumph over death and when he left his youth and began preaching. His birth and death are very minor events in the total story of his earthly life. Yet the celebration of his triumph over death is almost drowned in a goulish, detailed examination of how he died. Indeed, the classic "cruifix" celebrates 24/7/52 a Jesus humilitated and dead rather than living, triumphant over death and evil. There are minority theological positions on the other aspects of the life of Jesus, and I will leave readers to them.
Personally, I am put-off especially at Easter by the idolatry of the "cross" as the symbol of Christianity because it is claimed to have been the instrument of Roman tortured execution. The actual historical evidence is that the Romans did NOT use a horizontal bar on their torture execution stakes or poles. Folks, get real - neatly trimmed dimension lumber was made by hand and was expensive. Who was going to waste it on executing criminals? The Romans used simple "stakes" or poles with no horizontal bars when execution with torture was required. Execution without torture involved simple hacking to death as in "beheading" as shown in sculptures.
Have a pleasant holiday thinking about how far we have come in loving one another in 2000 years.
:gogo:
zippyriver
07-04-2007, 21:03
I certainly don't have a problem with celebrating a person's birthday, be it Deity incarnate or otherwise. According to the Bible, at his birth even the heavens rejoiced and celebrated and marked the event with a new star. This is probably where the tradition of celebrating birth came from, although I do not know if such was done prior by the common man.
I do know that gift giving during a festival for worship for a number of Pagan beliefs did, as did adorning symbols of fertility gods. Some of those include rabbits, worshiped as a symbol of fertility because of it's reproductive rate, and the rabbit visited houses to spread fertility (as it was thought to be a tangible thing placed as a sign of approval from the god). Eggs, again, worshiped as a symbol of fertility and a beginning of life, were painted with brilliant colors as part of the celebrations. The fir tree as well, because of it always being green and alive, and always pointing upward in a phallic nature, was likewise adorned with silver and gold. Mistletoe was used as a drug to avert normal human inhibitions against casual, multiple-partner sexual activities.
The list of traditional Christian activities that have origins in Pagan religions is long. Very long. And following such is expressly forbidden in biblical law. Celebration in as of themselves, is not. I would dare to say that the Old Testament Israelites threw quite a bash during their celebrations, but without what is traditionally seen today.
With the closeness of dates between the resurrection and the celebrations of Attis, it certainly is understandable the conflicts that went on, and it does not take a rocket scientist to understand why the two were integrated. Although I do not agree with the decision to do so. I won't change my beliefs, even if those beliefs are uncomfortable for others. If I did, what would be the point in having those in the first place. Christmas, on the other hand, is a different situation. Jesus was not born in December, but around September. Why celebrations for his birth were combined with the numerous Pagan celebration of Winter Solstice was probably due to the sheer number of celebration going on throughout the year and December 25th was chosen as it was the closest shared date of the majority of them. Again, I do not agree with the decision but understand the reasoning behind it. We see this type of combining even today. A good example (in the US) is the combining of George Washington's birthday and Abraham Lincoln's birthday into a single "President's Day" holiday.
I do not look down on people in judgment that follow these traditions. That is not for me to decide. The Lord looks at the heart, and his forgiveness is complete. He is the only one that can say where you will spend your eternity, as he is the only one with all the facts. Each day, my first and primary goal, is to do that which I believe is pleasing to God (keeping his commandments and following the guidelines layed down by Christ). This, is all time consuming. When I approach daily situations I ask myself certain questions. Is this pleasing to the Lord? If I were Christ, how would I handle this? If this person was Jesus incarnate standing in front of me, how would I act toward the situation? My beliefs dictate how I act, not how I believe others should act. When I see Christians doing something that I believe is not pleasing to the Lord, I let them know. Non-Christians are another story. They are not obligated to consider if their actions are pleasing to the Lord of not. My only obligation there is to let them know about the remission of sin. And if they accept Christ as their Saviour, it is up to God to mold them in the way he sees fit, and he does not need any help from the penny arcade to do it.
To keep this on topic, when I celebrate milestones associated with my beliefs, I strive to celebrate in a manner that would be pleasing to the person I am celebrating. If someone is allergic to chocolate, I don't bring a chocolate cake to their party. I bring what their favorite cake is. It saddens me when a celebration becomes more about the attendees, than about the guest of honor. So I will continue to keep things of Pagan origin out of my Christian celebrations and would hope every other Christian would do the same. And when they see a person following those traditions, to remember to approach them with love and not condemnation. It's what Christ would do.
The actual historical evidence is that the Romans did NOT use a horizontal bar on their torture execution stakes or poles. Folks, get real - neatly trimmed dimension lumber was made by hand and was expensive. Who was going to waste it on executing criminals?
Interesting. Although I don't have the reference handy (the book is at my sister's house in another state), I have read the Romans used the traditional cross, in addition to a "cross" that was in the shape on an "X". And although neatly hewn lumber required the skills of a carpenter, the wood used in crucifixion was rough cut (large splinters adding to the effect of the torture). They were also naked, but you certainly don't see that on the modern Catholic Crucifix.
Indeed, the classic "crucifix" celebrates 24/7/52 a Jesus humiliated and dead rather than living, triumphant over death and evil. Which is why the Christian cross does not have Christ on it. Why the Catholic cross does, would be a question for a Catholic to answer as I could only speculate. But in that light, Catholic beliefs I think focus more so on the law and the penalty for breaking that law, than on the remission of sins made possible by the resurrection. (going to a priest for confession, vows of poverty, etc. would seem to indicate this).
If an icon is needed, I would prefer to see the empty tomb, stone rolled away used, but that comes dangerously close to having a mill stone hung around one's neck and only missing the ocean toss to complete the picture. One must be careful to not begin to worship the icon, over the Lord it is intended to represent.
Some parts of this post will surely be easily answered that are not truth. I ask those questions in order to make some of us think of the true religious virtue of the Easter, not the pagan tradition that is the medium for it, medium which was used by christian sheperds, just like Jesus used hebrew religion as medium for his message...
I never said that. If your going to imply a quote, I would appreciate it if you don't add to my comments.so I apologise
You state you are not a Christian. I state that I am, and I do not celebrate "traditional" Easter activities because of that. I find the acceptance and integration of pagan worship rituals into Christian celebrations offensive (Easter is not the only one). Offense not at the masses that follow "tradition", but at the shepherds of flock that should know better. When I see churches advertising egg hunts and the like, I wonder if they truly realize what they are doing.As I understand your words you say that it is BAD that Christians celebrate the sacrifice and return of their God on Earth the same day the Pagans did celebrate revival of nature, right?
Do you find it more important that the celebration most probably is at this certain date which is obviously wrong than remembering the return of Your Lord? Forget the religious spirit of Your Master's mercy because it is celebrated at the same time the pagans celebrated arrival of spring
Say 700 years from now, people celebrate my birthday but they changed the date of the celebration to match the birthday of my arch rival, Mickey Mouse. All my life I talked about the long term negative repercussions of wearing felt hats with plastic ears, and the eternal benefits one could receive by not wearing them. But alas, 700 years later, everyone is wearing them at my birthday party. So people are celebrating on my enemy's birthday but calling it mine, and following my enemy's dress code and saying it's OK because it's "tradition"...
If someone walked up to Jesus and said they wanted to celebrate his birthday during the Winter Solstice and include adorning fir trees with silver and gold, amongst other things, he would have (I believe) informed them that that would be inappropriate.I'm glad you believe what you say.
Isn't it important just because people (those who believe in his celestial substance) remind he was born again, no matter when and no matter how? Yes, they adopted the dressing and other traditions of others, but are those things more important that the reminder?
They should do it every day, right, but unless someone is a priest he has to think of other things and not only remember His acts every day. They should follow his example, but not all can think of his acts everyday. So at least several days a year, is it so bad?
The important thing is the time spent, and you don't need a special holiday for that.The reson of holiday is to enable it, because families are splited often houndreds of kilometres one from each other, they do need a holiday that is shared by all.
I don't know why should I need more power because my personal view of this feast is diferent from yours. Who are you to judge me? I'm very secular person, but does it make me any worse than some Christian fundamentalist?
If however, you view the holiday as a Christian holiday, I am self-obligated to my beliefs to at least try and inform you of the nature of the traditions that are being attributed to such celebrations. What you do with that information is entirely up to you.So what's wrong on the pagan traditions that celebrate that something good is re-born? That theologists added to it also meaning of reminder of Jesus Christ? If you honestly think of him and wish all good to all others, does it really matter HOW you do that if you don't harm anyone?
Or does the adoption of pagan feasts harm you? Does it harm you that Christians adopted thoughts from Judaism that were adopted from old Mesopotamian cults and mixed it with some thoughts of greek philosophy and mystics? Can you today perfectly distinguish what is unique Christian what wasn't influenced by no other cult?
Since my reply was not moved with the rest of the posts, I will repeat it here, and it is meant with the most sincerity. I apologize if you took offense at my original post, I was only trying to be informative.all religious feasts are corupted into popular feasts. Simple reason is that not everybody can be monk or theologist and think of God all day long. They do their jobs and try to think of God and his truth.. and from time to time it is god to remind them. All good sheperds knew that, including Celestial Jesus Christ, that's why he sacrifised himself - to remind his father, correct me if I'm wrong. He did it to inspire people. Is it more important if they are jews, baptized or said the Shahada or call themselves secular or atheist or that they still practice some of nice pagan traditions, or that they follow his example?
In your "informative post" you don't speak about the true spirit of Easter, why? You said you tried to be informative, but you didn't bother to say the most important thing around Easter, that Your Lord was crucified for your and our sins!
You just said that we follow pagan tradition, but you didn't say, "you are missing the virtue of the feast because it is to remind the Lord". Why?
So was the goal of your post really to inform the others of the Good News? or rather mentoring: I don't hold your pagan feasts because I am better. You showed perfect religious hypocryticism you criticized...
I believe Jesus wouldn't mind if the people remind him doing pagan rituals as long as they think of the Good News and his leadership. And those who just don't celebrate his return because the others do it in bad way and in bad day, would he be pleased? His message wasn't to stand against the pagan crowd just because it's pagan, it was "show them how be better" or not?
--
Celebrating anyone's birthday serves as a way to mark milestones along their life's path much as cutting a notch in one's hiking staff as one passes an actual milestone on a road serves as a measure of a physical journey. That analogy makes it obivious that celebration or marking of one's birthday after one's death is really sort of a strange custom.It's really weird to remind someone who is already dead, isn't it? Who cares that you loved him and he left you a message.
If you experienced a death of someone who was very close to you you'd think of him.. and you'd find it almost as need to do something for him, though his physical existence has already ended...
One's birth and death dates bracket one's life for historical purposes. There are other dates within those brackets which are likely to be much more worthy of continuing, annual celebration. For example, the date when an artist's defining masterwork was published.how such date is more important than the day he was given to the world? or the day he came to the idea? or the day he concluded how it should look like? or some other day?
Birth and death dates are common in reminder of one's life in many more cultures than "Our Western", because they frame his life, they show the days when he entered and left the world, something like mystic experience... not perfectly monotheistic, but anthropologicaly the best moments for spiritual comunication
The actual historical evidence is that the Romans did NOT use a horizontal bar on their torture execution stakes or poles. Folks, get real - neatly trimmed dimension lumber was made by hand and was expensive.The importance of Jesus was not how perfect is the evidence of his life and how exactly historicaly accurate we are in reminding him.
Was the "spiritual feel" of medieval honest Christians reminding the true virtue of Easter in middle ages, thinking of him on the "bad" cross with Roman soldiers being dressed like medieval knights worse than yours or mine?
Who cares on which day he was crucified, born or when he triumphed over death? Who cares WHEN and HOW we celebrate his life? It is important that his message is here and that people remind it and try to follow him.. better just several (wrongly dated) days than never...
zippyriver
07-04-2007, 23:22
all
As I understand your words you say that it is BAD that Christians celebrate the return of their God on Earth the same day the Pagans did celebrate revival of nature, right?
No. The date was not the point, but the rituals included in that compromise.
It is bad because Jesus hated pagans, right?
No. Jesus did not hate any person, and neither should Christians. What he did hate, is sin. The person that commits sin should still be viewed with love. (which is everyone)
So you find it more important that the celebration most probably is at this certain date which is obviously wrong than remembering the return of Your Lord? Forget the religious spirit of Your Master's mercy because it is celebrated the at the same time the pagans (who deserve no mercy) celebrated coming of spring
Again, it more about the activities during the celebration than the date it is held on. I don't need to include Pagan activities in my remembrance of the mercy and love made available to me through the death and resurrection of Christ.
And where do you get pagans don't deserve mercy? Christ died for the remission of sins for everyone. Gentile and Jew alike.
Yes, they adopted the dressing and other traditions of others, but are those things more important that the reminder?
Those dressings and traditions of other religions that were adopted are not necessary. When I see a rabbit running across the road, I am not reminded of the resurrection, I am reminded to drive slow enough to not hit it. Furthermore, keeping in the spirit of the reminder, one should try and keep that celebration pure to what it is celebrating.
Do you know anyone who's birthday also falls on a holiday, like Christmas? Do you know how they would feel and react if their Christmas presents and Birthday presents were combined into one gift? They usually feel cheated on both accounts.
They should do it every day, right, but unless someone is a priest he has to think of other things and not only remember His acts every day. They should follow his example, but not all can do it everyday.
Yes, they should remember, EVERY day, the mercy shown to them. Yes, they should remember EVERY day, to love others with the same love Christ showed them. That IS what being a Christian is about. Living your life Christ-like. You are correct on one aspect there, not everyone can do that. It takes having Christ in your heart, as without him, that kind of love is impossible. Being a priest is not a requirement.
The reason of holiday is to enable it, because families are splited often houndreds of kilometres one from each other, they do need a holiday that is shared by all.
I thought the reason for a holiday was the remembrance of something. And not just a term used so a person could have some time off. Vacation time, is what should be used for family reunions. Holidays, are for remembrance.
I don't know why should I need more power because my personal view of this feast is different from yours. Who are you to judge me? I'm very secular person, but does it make me any worse than some Christian fundamentalist?
I have no idea where that came from. I am not judging you, or any other person. What I am doing, is reminding Christians to do those things that are pleasing to the Lord and abstain from those things that are not.
And no, being secular does not make you worse than anyone else, anymore than being a Christian makes a person better than another. ALL. and I repeat ALL!, have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God. Accepting Christ does not make me better, just forgiven. Doing that which is pleasing to the Lord does not make me more "saved" than another. It only shows (to the Lord, not people) that I take what I have been given seriously, honestly, and to heart.
So what's wron on the pagan traditions that celebrate that something good is re-born? That theologists added to it also meaning of reminder of Jesus Christ? If you honestly think of him and wish all good to all others no matter if they are good or bad, your family, friends or strangers, does it really matter HOW you do that if you don't harm anyone?
I believe it does harm someone. It harms themselves. It harms their walk with God, and it harms how they view the world, and how the world views them. Funny how you mention this shortly after stating how hard it is for someone to follow a Christian walk every day.
All good sheperds knew that, including Celestial Jesus Christ, that's why he sacrifised himself - to remind his father, correct me if I'm wrong. He did it to inspire people. Is it more important if they are jews, baptized or said the Shahada or call themselves secular or atheist or that they still practice some of nice pagan traditions, or that they follow his example?
Christ allowed himself to be sacrificed so that once and for all people could receive forgiveness their sins. So they could go boldly before the throne (which was not allowed under the law as only the high priest was allowed in the inner sanctum). The penalty of sin is death (not carnal death, but eternal death). His sacrifice paid that price, even tho he himself was not guilty. The price could not be paid by someone guilty, even for their own sins. Let alone for everyone else.
It certainly is important that people follow his example, religious beliefs aside, in regards to how they treat other people. But if you truly are following HIS example, your not going to be including yourself in Pagan rituals, are you.
You just said You are pagans because you do this and that what is pagan tradition, and... So was the goal of your post really to inform the others of the Good News or rather mentoring: I don't hold your pagan feasts because I am better. You showed perfect religious hypocryticism you criticized
No I didn't say anyone was Pagan because they practiced those activities. The post was directed at the activity, not the person participating. and I never said I was better. I was displaying information about the holiday in reference to why I don't follow the traditions. I was critical about the traditional activities, but I fail to see how that is being hypocritical. I view those activities as inappropriate for the celebration. Hypocrisy would be being critical of the people instead of the activity and that is not the case.
I believe Jesus wouldn't mind if the people remind him doing pagan rituals as long as they think of the Good News and his leadership. And those who just don't celebrate his return because the others do it in bad way and in bad day, would he be pleased?
I totally disagree. I think he would mind very much, because such things can hinder their walk together.
His message wasn't to stand against the pagan crowd just because it's pagan, it was "show them how be better" or not? Now your getting warmer. :go:
No. The date was not the point, but the rituals included in that compromise. can some ritual - if done by thinking about Jesus make your celebration of him any worse? You donť need to do them, but you couldn't?
No. Jesus did not hate any person, and neither should Christians. I know that it is written about him. Re-read my post since the beggining please
I don't need to include Pagan activities in my remembrance of the mercy and love made available to me through the death and resurrection of Christ. but doing them does not make your celebration any worse, if you honestly think of him, does it? Sorry to repeat myself
Those dressings and traditions of other religions that were adopted are not necessary. When I see a rabbit running across the road, I am not reminded of the resurrection, I am reminded to drive slow enough to not hit it. Furthermore, keeping in the spirit of the reminder, one should try and keep that celebration pure to what it is celebrating. sorry, why? people like bin Laden would certainly agree with you
Do you know anyone who's birthday also falls on a holiday, like Christmas? Do you know how they would feel and react if their Christmas presents and Birthday presents were combined into one gift? yes my mother. So the point of christmass is GETTING gifts? I thought it when I was child.. now I know it is about GIVING them(apart from other more important things of course).. you GIVE gifts to your closest.. no matter how many. But in order to PURE the idea we should not, of course give enyone anything...
Yes, they should remember, EVERY day, the mercy shown to them.every day? only. Rather every second.. it is sin when you think of how to survive instead of thinking of your God, right? One has to live to be able to spread his word...
I thought the reason for a holiday was the remembrance of something.celebrate Christmass alone, think of God and forget about your family which is 100 miles away and you can't visit them because tomorrow you have to do your job - think of your God, while they can't because they earn money to feed you.. only this way you'd be the right follower of Jesus, right?
I am not judging you, or any other person. What I am doing, is reminding Christians to do those things that are pleasing to the Lord and abstain from those things that are not. You know exactly what pleases the Lord?
To quote you:
If you view the holiday as a time well spent with family. A joyous reunion during which time you can relax and have recreation with loved ones, more power to you. And in that light, it does not matter if the theme is bunnies, bulls, beer or bowling.more power to me? What?
Doing that which is pleasing to the Lord does not make me more "saved" than another. It only shows (to the Lord, not people) that I take what I have been given seriously, honestly, and to heart.But you as Christian know better than I what pleases the Lord? No pagan traditions, informating blind without mentioning the virtue.
It harms their walk with God, and it harms how they view the world, and how the world views them. Funny how you mention this shortly after stating how hard it is for someone to follow a Christian walk every day.I don't need to follow any God to be good. Is it better to die of hunger because you only think of your God or not think of him and work to feed your children?
But if you truly are following HIS example, your not going to be including yourself in Pagan rituals, are you.why not? what's bad on bunny? I like him and I know kids like him... What's bad on celebrating arrival of Spring? I wonder... Something good has come, a new hope has arrived, sunny days that make people nicer and kinder to each other. That it is reminiscence of pagan tradition? that it isn't pure enough? Was Jesus really so cold pure who didn't know what is to enjoy moments of his life? He came here to sacrifice for "us" and didn't show joy and hapiness, does it mean joy and happiness are not pure enough so we should not enjoy them?
I was displaying information about the holiday in reference to why I don't follow the traditions. I was critical about the traditional activities, but I fail to see how that is being hypocritical.You said you try to be informative, you said your critic goes from Christian point, but you didn't mention the crucial thing every true Christian should think of during the Easter. Did you really try to Help Christians or you just wanted to criticise those who are not as puritan as you?
I don't want you to answer me this question - the answer is important for your Christian soul.
I think he would mind very much, because such things can hinder their walk together.You think, I think.. what he thought. One thing is for sure: we can argue about it, but no way we can now find if he really would or wouldn't mind...
Now your getting warmer. :go:I'm warm all the time.. just you feel me sometimes colder sometimes not - depending on how you agree/disagree :wink:
--
sorry, we got bit too far from Easter in some parts of our discussion....
zippyriver
08-04-2007, 05:32
I will get back to a reply, but am only on for a few minutes and don't have the time right now. I am going to be offline for a few days (until Wednesday at the earliest).
Whoa, what happened? Looks like the thread just exploded over night...:eek:
I jsut wanted to say that I found BaldJim's post about the date very interesting...
... I just wanted to say that I found BaldJim's post about the date very interesting.
Thank you very much.
:smile3: :hug: :peace:
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