[EN]Pro-Israeli or pro-Palestinian?

[Elvain]

Once religion becomes an excuse for politics, there is a BIG PROBLEM for all sides of the conflict..

Religious people may disagree (if they want to disagree, please open another thread, do not post it here), but politics is made by humans only. It is and always was being "legalized" by some "holy texts" that speak that the nation that does agression does it because it was told by their god. EVERY religion did it.

If some people are not mature enough to grow up from this idelölogy, the only thing they deserve is to die in never-ending bloody war.
I didn't talk to Jewish radicals (personaly) But most of Jews are mature enough not to accept it.

Politics is rational (at least the leaders should be), so if it follows irational religion, it's the worst thing that can happen. One nation proclaims: the God has promised this land to us. The other proclaims the same. Which one is right? The one whose God is more right? do you want theologists whoare often out of practical reality to decide where the border should go?
Western religions claim absolute universal truth. Thogh there are 3 such absolute universal truths and many particularistic. None of them will ever assume that the other side is more or less right, they will fight untill the final destruction of one or the other. in this case Israel is in very big disadvantage, because, believe me, the God won't come and solve the problem, because both sides are his followers and both are wrong, very wrong.

[Anguille2]

they have no other choice. They really are more part of Europe than of the M.E.

Culturally they are closer to Europe (Israel being a land of immigration) but its location is the M-E...and this is the future of Israel. When you join a group of people, while keeping your identity, you need to integrate yourself. Imho, Israels foreign affairs and economy should deal the most with it's neighbours.

[Elvain]

Culturally they are closer to Europe (Israel being a land of immigration) but its location is the M-E...and this is the future of Israel. When you join a group of people, while keeping your identity, you need to integrate yourself. Imho, Israels foreign affairs and economy should deal the most with it's neighbours.
oh, yes, this is right.

I believe the original idea of zionist settlers was to bring "progress" or modernity to the region. They did it, they changed the land into a garden, and the arabs were refusing it because it was jewish invention. Now they are both realizing they are closer to each other and they need to cooperate in order to survive there (Israeli-Egyptian peace, Israeli-Jordanian peace)

They brought modernity to traditional arab societiy, you can't ask them to accept someone elses traditional society once they already are modern. And even the Arabs are realizing they have to learn from them and in many cases where it is possible they do. The thing also is WHAT will they (Israelis) and we (other Westeners who are bringing modernity there) teach them.
The loudest of the arab fraction now is political and religious radicalism. I'm under impression, that it is going wrong way. Instead of teaching them how to prevent it, the West and many Israelis accept the conception of radicalism and want to apply radical politics and radical religious ideologies. It is wrong...

[People's Republic of China]

Peace is very dear to me. For all history, Christianity has disturbed it.

The only way forward for this world is for every trace of Christianity to be erased.


It really is that simple.

Naturally, I take the opposite view. I say that enemies of Christianity should be erased. But maybe, the verbal harassment, I used to get with regularity from various very angry, very physical athiests has soured my attitude of love that my faith requires. :bash:

[Elvain]

Naturally, I take the opposite view. I say that enemies of Christianity should be erased. But maybe, the verbal harassment, I used to get with regularity from various very angry, very physical athiests has soured my attitude of love that my faith requires. :bash:
oh yes, kill all the jews (medieval pogroms and the Holocaust were good), muslims (the crusades were not brutal enough because the muslims survived in the region), paganism was successfully eliminated, now get rid of all those who don't even believe in God..

Sorry that we disturb you.

To be honest it is YOUR statements that provoke us not to speak in friendly manner as you are so radical that one has to speak up (look at this discussion, the first who expressed true christian Love was you: "get those squatters off our turf before they double-standard us into the sea!" how Christian and lovefull! all statements before were so atheisticaly radical that you couldn't even look at it and show us what christian love is about, right? or was it our peacefull discussion what provoked you for those words? I wonder. Coz before you entered the discussion with the crap of promissed land - which was promissed to both Jews and Muslims, according to what their one God is said to say - the discussion was very factual and willing to get a common agreement how it could be helped. And then you entered with your "christian love")

[Anguille2]

Ehm...at Elvain...he is a jew, isn't he?:scratch:

[Elvain]

I know he declares him to be jew (messianistic which is IMO rather a extremist christian fraction than extremist jewish fraction). I just want to illustrate how he contradicts himself :wink:

Jews were considered as main enemies of christianity, weren't they? According to his words he should have already been eliminated.

[Anguille2]

I understand.

That's actually funny...i am Christian but as Jesus was a jew, i consider myself jew as well...:wink:

[People's Republic of China]

Whoops, I think I was misuderstood. FrankishHero suggested that my faith be eliminated, naturally I took exception.

Messianic Jews are (Theology, seculars bail out) completed Jews, the Book of Isaiah mentions the crucifixtion in detail. Most Jews ignore this.
Judaism and Christianity are really the same thing. One follows tradition, and the other has the Good News.

Palestinians can stay in Israel and even stay Muslim. So long as they become Israeli. If they won't become Israeli, then off the lands. The Koran doesn't even mention Israel or Jerusalem. Only Mecca.


Elvain, yes I am Jewish, however, I understand that you're trying to make a point so I won't rip your head off for that Holocaust remark.:wink:

When I say enemies of Christianity, I mean those who are trying to destroy it. Not everyone who isn't Christian, is an enemy. I've found that conversion comes from heart not through force. so forcing people to change never works.

Take care all

I'll add more when I have more time.

[catt]

<offtopic>
I always find it funny how all Jesus ever preached was love. He even preached to love your enemies. I think Jesus would be very sad to see what all those "good Christians" out there are doing with his gospel.
In my life I have met many "Christians" who were just full of hate and I have met many agnostics/atheists, who lived much more by the rules of Christianity than a lot of its followers do. It really makes me wonder which ones Jesus would prefer.
</offtopic>

[FrankishHero]

PRC, maybe I expressed myself wrong:

ALL faiths should be eliminated. Including, but not limited to Christians, Jews or Muslims. That doesn't mean people have to die, only if they don't want to give up their misguided trust in a 'higher spirit'.

My sig = Truth.

[People's Republic of China]

Then what, pray tell me, is the point behind life?

[Kuno of Gersenau]

Guys, I guess this discussion went a bit far off topic. I seriously ask you to go back to the topic!

[Richard]

Then what, pray tell me, is the point behind life?
In my opinion the point of life is what ever you want it to be. You decide where you want to go, and where ever you go, makes you who you are/will be.
So the question you should be asking is,
" Is fearing going to a place where I will suffer for eternity because I didn't fallow god and it's church, the point of this life?" :wink:

Anyways, you can make another thrad and we can discuss this.

It seems to me that most people don't choose sides, but the poll is really close.

[Doux]

I considered myself slightly pro-Palestinian.
They lived there for ages when the (end of the) holocaust caused a mass movement. The Israeli are relatively new there and thus should be more lenient. Of course there is no option of either moving out of the area, so they will have to live by eachother. Both sides do wrong things, but I consider the coordinated Israeli (militairy) actions more wrong than the uncoordinated suicide bombing by Palestinians (or whatever far coordination terrorist organisations bring into this) and I consider Israel in a stronger position.
Concluding, Israel should in my opinion be the first and wisest by pulling back from parts of the lands and giving the green light for Palestina. Of course, the at the same time concessions have to be made by Hamas by recognising Israel.

[Xuca]

I'm only slightly pro-Israely, mainly because similar things are happening around here, but that's a different topic...

[Richard]

Here they go again
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18286081/

[People's Republic of China]

I'm only slightly pro-Israely, mainly because similar things are happening around here, but that's a different topic...

SRBIJA!!! :hello: :cheers:

[Carbon]

I pro-israeli, for multiple reasons.

- Jews have been promised land there, and it was their previous home before exodus and destruction of the kingdom

- The country was created by an agreement of the great powers, who determine post-world war II global politics

- Liberal democracy Israel is better than absolute monarchy Palestine that was planned

- Although I am pro-Israeli, I still think there should be total peace, Israel has been planned out for quite some time before it's creation, I read somewhere that every British monarch in the 19th and early 20th century had been a zionist, need to clarify that, anyone give me proof on this?

[Elvain]

I must say that I agree with most of what you said, though I'd add some comments if you don't mind

- Jews have been promised land there, and it was their previous home before exodus and destruction of the kingdomwell, to be honest. The worst thing we can do is follow religious books when doing political praxis.
Many religious authorities (including jewish and christian) have also said that the Jews lost this promise when they didn't follow orders of their God (or killed His son or didn't listen to the Final Prophecy) - it is all just matter of interpretation of books which were written for something else

- The country was created by an agreement of the great powers, who determine post-world war II global politics
very legalisticaly said
Fact is that Arabs have lived there for centuries when Jews came (back) and started to occupy it. Other fact is that the land was changed from semi-desert to green garden
Another fact is that the plan of UN and "great powers"(how relative power is) was little different: there were supposed to be 2 states + neutral zone of Jerusalem. Palestinian state was (and still largely is) occupied partly by Israel, partly by Jordan and Egypt, Jerusalem was annexed by Israel and /alestinian state doesn't exist untill now - almost 60 years after the UN promise

- Liberal democracy Israel is better than absolute monarchy Palestine that was plannedthere was not absolute monarchy planned in Palestine. Untill Palestinian nationalists around mr. Arafat and today mr. president Abbas appeared to be corrupted, the nationalists (with ability to achieve agreement with Israel and establish democratic principles in Palestine) were much more popular among the Palestinians than exptemists (Hamas etc.)
On the other side, Israel is not as liberal and democratic as european states (not even as USA). And people there know that soon they will have to decide wether be jewish (but not really democratic) state ot democratic (but not really jewish) state. Very hard to decide especially when you know that if the state would be democratic and not-jewish it will be just question of time when government of such hypothetical "non-jewsh democratic Israel" will force Jews to leave it

- Although I am pro-Israeli, I still think there should be total peace, Israel has been planned out for quite some time before it's creation, I read somewhere that every British monarch in the 19th and early 20th century had been a zionist, need to clarify that, anyone give me proof on this?I don't think it is provable. Also I think it is absolutely irrelevant because it weren't the monarchs who were doing middle eastern policy of the UK.
Some of the people were "financed" from "zionist" money, that's without any doubt. But very closely after the WWII. they were as anti-zionist as it was possible after the things that happened to Jews under Nazi occupation in Europe