3-star scar

[zippyriver]

Ok, even Ramirez told me to watch my mouth after the latest speel :eek: . But will spare you that part.

Playing against 2 hard (Igor was not invited to the party). And working on certain defensive stratigies. Nadinsky declared war a while back, and because of the massive AI bonuses easily took and maintained naval superiority (sorry, but the HP-Damage=speed not being applied to the AI is BS). However I have been able to crush all of her troop invasions so far. And lodge activities have been tit-for-tat (although her's has never failed yet :angry: )

The problem I am facing is two fold. First, even when I get military assistance from the Queen, they never make it to my island before being sunk by Nadinsky's rat pack of 8 warships. Assistance from the Queen is a exersice in futility. Second, because of that same rat pack, I can't keep any shore line buildings. Soon as I get a warehouse up, here they come. I was able to sink a ship here and there with watch towers and cannon towers, but not enough to make any difference as she can easily re-build any losses. Most of the time they run away at exactly the right time (at full speed no less) and go for repair.

I have plenty of tools and enough income for the defensive plans, however the island does not have a deep clay pit and lack of bricks are a constant problem. Because I can't keep a warehouse up, and it has been a long time since I had a visit from the freetrader (two game hours or thereabouts). It's like the SO* took me off of his route. At one point I had repelled Nadinsky good enough that I had a WH for a while, but had to endure a plague that hit ever single house (medic could not keep up with the spread). Plagues this severe should NOT hit so often (4 of 5 so far, iirc). Having a medical building is useless (game balance issues here) most of the time.

No ships from the Queen, No FT visits and no bricks. So not sure how long I can hold the line. Emilio also recently declared war which earned a 3-finger slaute(ctrl-alt-del or equivilant game exit), but thanks to an auto save I was able to go back a little bit and at least postpone his unprovoked action.

So, Any advice on turning the tide of this war would be appreciated.

[Maxie Zeus]

I don't have any advice per se, but I have a similar story and can tell you how I got out of it.

My "defensive strategy" was to max out on Citizens on a self-sufficient island. I was playing on a "Easy" level, but with the three hard opponents. Early on Igor attacked me; then Madame Horrible joined. Igor was fraternized with Tetonka, and he and Madame had both reached Merchant level. So besides invasions, I also had to deal with Revolutionaries, Demagogues, Saboteurs, and Lightning Storms. And like you, I didn't have Deep Clay Pits, but I did have three of them, at least.

Basically, I just hunkered down. Because I was self-sufficient I didn't need the Warehouse or the Free Trader, though the income certainly would have been welcome. I used a lot of my brick to build walls across all of my beaches. (If you build it right against the line, troops can't come ashore; better yet, any troops that try to land will just fall into the water as castaways. I couldn't pick them up, but at least Igor and Madame kept losing army units. But I kept losing any ships the Queen sent me.

Eventually Igor got tired and made peace and it was just me against Madame. But then he declared war on me again. Then Madame made peace. Then she declared war on me again. They kept tag-teaming this way. And I kept losing vast swaths of my city to lightning and riots.

But even though it was four steps forward and three steps back, I was able to build up my city and keep it pretty close to the 2,000 population level, and was also able to accumulate large stocks of wood, cloth, cannons, cannons, and cash.

After about five game hours of this I stumbled upon one trick that may have turned the tide. The Queen gave me a new exploration vessel during one of the pauses when Igor was taking a rest. Instead of leaving it to hopelessly wallow until Madame sank it (as I'd been doing with previous gifts from the Queen; why try to save it, I'd sourly wonder), I set it to patrol along the edges of the map and make a circuit of the archipelago. This served to draw Madame's fleet off--they went chasing it. After I saw that her fleet was on the opposite of the map, I built five small shipyards and did a crash fleet build. She managed to corner my Exploration ship, finally, by invoking the Asians' curse, but by that time I had about ten small warships. At that point, to my surprise, she offered peace. It was the first time in almost six game hours that I'd been at peace with the world.

I used the opportunity to finish my fleet and army: with that population I could build and financially support about 20 units of each. Once I had them built, I went up and exterminated the Iroquois, so there'd be no more lightning storms. Tetonka hit me with one more, though, as he left, and someone else hit me with a Revolutionary at the same time. That left me hemorraging cash, and Madame must have smelt the opportunity, because she almost instantly declared war on me. By that point, though, I had my fleet and army safely back at my island. I waited for her fleet to show up.

And here's where I really benefited from the AI's incompetence at military tactics. If she'd hit my fleet with everything she had (about 12 ships, I'd estimated), she'd have lost but wouldn't have done me serious damage; and if Igor had jumped in at that point (he'd been quiet for a long time) I'd have been knocked back hard. But instead she sent her fleet in piecemeal to attack my shipyards. I picked them off three at a time and lost only one of my own ships. After that it was (comparatively) cake to bottle her up, land an army, and exterminate her.

As soon as I had my military forces back and repaired, I went after Igor. He had helpfully put his main force (about 8 small warships) in a single place off his main island. I ambushed and destroyed him. He did have three large warships nearby, but they were no match for my 20-ship armada. It was a bit harder to knock him out of the game, as he had a huge army on his island, but a naval blockade and hit-and-run amphibious attacks wore him down to the point I could land a large force and destroy him.

Castelli had been neutral all this time; I even had a trade agreement with him. But after he hit me unprovoked with a Demagogue I wiped him out.

My suggestion, FWIW: If you're self-sufficient, both materially and financially, sit tight. I guess you probably can't seal yourself off behind walls if you're out of bricks. Fortunately, the AI seems to be almost as bad at land tactics as sea tactics. But I'd recommend you try and see if you can use the "patrol" trick to draw off the enemy's fleet. It might take a very long time--it sure did in my case--but if you've got the grit you might be able to hang on and build a stockpile that will let you explode outward and destroy one of your enemies during a pause when you've only got one of them on your neck.

[zippyriver]

I thought about that too, and on one of the Queen's handouts I got an explorer and a SW. I sent them oppostie directions, hoping to draw off the fleet long enough for at least one FT visit, but they didn't manage to even reach their respective first corner. The 8 that were hitting my island picked off the SW and the few she had near her island intercepted the Exp, and slowed it down enough for the 8 to come over and pick it off. It should have been enough time, but the FT never came by.

Emilo finally declared again, but I had been at war with prune face long enough that she was in the high red, and a successfull ingratiate :eek: spurned a peace treaty (followed by a 1500 coin demand, that I paid). So for now, she is off my back. Are there any time limits placed on peace treaties? Like she won't declare for another game hour or something, or can I expect a possible back-stab on this recent treaty?

I will try the split ship trick again next Queen gift. Emilio's pack is larger than what Nadine's was, so I am assuming it his full fleet, and might be able to draw enough of his ships away to get a delivery. I want to try this after the next unrequested ship (since that one has tools/wood). And maybe I can take a beachhead ANY where else., while the requested ships draw them off. or v-v, Depending on open beach availability.

I want to get enough bricks to build a block of CT and put a dent in his fleet. I am stuck at around 1200 ppl with 2 tobacco and 3 alcohol chains. So expanding population will be difficult, and tho I am making a profit, dropping 4-5 shipyards and building a number of ships will be coin difficult. Most of my profits so far has gone to troop replacement and attempts at keeping a WH up long enough for a FT visit. Perhaps I'll give up on the WH until I get 20K? extra :eek:

[Maxie Zeus]

Wow, bad luck on the ships.

I don't remember how much time I had between attacks. I think it was only about thirty or forty-five game minutes, though. I'd expect Madame Cruella and Signor Ratface to tagteam you like they did me, though. :(

Keep in mind I'm a noob at the game, but ...

Strategy: You mention you're stuck with a 1200 population. But as long as you've got lumber production, though, you can build pioneers, right? And without bricks you can still build cloth production. So that means you can still add settlers to your island, right? Or are you out of room? Anyway, if you can add Settlers, I'd recommend doing that. The tax and ship support they bring are not to be sneezed at.

Tactics: Why would you want to keep building the WH if you just know it's going to be instantly bombed out? I'd save the materials until you are in a situation--by drawing off the enemy's fleet, for instance--when you think it can survive for awhile.

Also, I thought you said that your cannon towers (that's what CT stands for, right?) didn't really damage Madame's fleet--sank a few ships that she could easily replace. Why would it be any different against Castelli? I'd suggest saving your coin, cannons and bricks.

Bottom-line, I don't see a tactic or strategy you can use to turn things around quickly. Of course, my inability to see an alternate was why I went for the tortoise strategy when this happened to me: lay low until you can accumulate at least 20K to 30K coin and the material to support a very large navy. Then wait for a tactically opportune moment, build your fleet all at once, and hit your enemies hard with overwhelming force.

BTW, what map number and game settings are you on? I'm curious to try the same game. (Yeah, I'm a masochist, I guess.)

[Dobber]

..................I sent them oppostie directions, hoping to draw off the fleet long enough for at least one FT visit, .................................................. ............... It should have been enough time, but the FT never came by.


Why didn't you use courier ship to get a huge supply of bricks while she was off chasing the other ships?

[zippyriver]

The CTs didn't survive the initial wave. So they were absent when Castillo started. He has started hitting some of my alcohol buildings with his ships, so I'm going to be facing a reduction in citz soon. He also can reach my last defensive block (down to two watch towers).

Yeah, I got some room for some more houses. Might have to move a hunting lodge or two (only rebuildable option. fishr get destr). If he kills my one bakery, it's over.

On rebuilding the WH, it wasn't rapid replacement. I would set up a Wh & pier, hoping to have an active Wh long enough for a FT visit. I would manage run 3 consecutively but never got the visit (before taking a break in trying). IMO the FT should come asap in this kind of situation (hope they fixed this with the patch).

I am currently replacing (as availability opens up) my pikes (more HP) with grenadiers (ranged). I have a pack of them, and used a Wh to lure the enemy fleet to the "stage" (dock and road section). I sunk two of his SW and lost 3 units before having to retreat to medic. So there is a light in the tunnel with that. Since I can't build anymore cannon or watchtowers yet (going to save up brick for a block), had to try some thing else. (ps, bring back the wood palisades from 1602! they would actually be usefull in 1701).

I likewise am in the learning stage for difficult. Even if I count this one as a loss, homeland defense tactics have improved and learned a few things. (They need to get that :censored: US patch out).

Last salute Nadinski declared again. So it's not just a tag team, it's a gang up. dat's ok. :swordfigh :swordfigh

And troops must be visually impared. Even with an agressive stance, they won't engage even if the enemy is clearly in sight. I have to multi-select and tell them to. Quite annoying.

Emilio's mexican stand off was kinda funny though. He waited for the plague to leave before attacking (he lost one ship that battle too. lol) It's what triggered the "Grenadier Berets" idea. Baseball season was postponed as all the pitchers were conscripted.

http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/6264/emiliokx8.th.jpg (http://img147.imageshack.us/my.php?image=emiliokx8.jpg)

Does anyone know if these bugs were fixed (or will be fixed when the US patch is applied?). I didn't put them in the bug thread, just curious if fixed.

Note Emilio's log entry. This happened when I caught one of his spies but the message indicates it was my lodge. Wrong penalty applied?
http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/2606/emilobugdq1.th.jpg (http://img147.imageshack.us/my.php?image=emilobugdq1.jpg)

And this is Igor about 7 seconds before declaring war. Shouldn't it degrade down a bit first? (bug, imo. Otherwise consider ingratiate and tributes broke. U pick). from a different game.
http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/1867/igorsm4.th.jpg (http://img147.imageshack.us/my.php?image=igorsm4.jpg)
**********

I'll get the map info next load. The island I took is the alcohol/tobacco one (obviously).
*********
Not sure what all you need.

Island world: large
Island difficulty: hard
Big islands, revealed, Raw material:few

Emilio and Nadasky plus bottom 7

Seed:few, no refunds, normal pirates plus bottom 5

Conditions: 500k coin, 10k ppl, 30 pcs castle. All 3 required.

Map number: 2780103

Anti-Tip: I spent a lot of brick early on developing block strategies.
Hint: Locusts are your friend.

Since the map info is there. I'll throw it down as a challange. AARs are very welcomed. Don't cheese it by sinking and AI pre initial warehouse.

[thegrindre]

Wonderful, just wonderful thread!!! Very exciting...:cheers:

[nullspace]

My strategy is to forget about defense, and do everything I can to ensure naval superiority. Don't build towers, don't build soldiers, just build ships. You said that Nadasky had 8 ships when she attacked you, that isn't too many. When I get to citizen level, I fill the entire radius of the city center with as many citizen houses as I can. Also, build more than one surgeon and cobblestone roads so that plagues don't last forever. That's enough houses to get a large enough income to build and maintain at least 8 warships. Fraternize with Liang Wu so that your ships have a mobility advantage during the big battle.

Defense is kind of hopeless. You'd have to build enough cannon towers at EACH coastal facility to beat their fleet. And those towers won't prevent your enemy from landing on other beaches, and they won't allow you to go on the offensive.

An alternative would be to try and stay at peace. Nadasky seems to be fairly isolationist until you start settling other islands. Castelli seems to be non-aggressive if you pay him for a trade agreement. But you still need a big navy as a deterrent, and use the lodge's ingratiate, and destroy the pirates to get the other players to like you.

Or if you want to be cheesy, eliminate Nadasky before she can make ships. As soon as you get to settler level, attack with militia. Or buy weapons then attack with pikemen. Even at citizen level, grenadiers + mortars + crusade + Montezuma's Revenge can defeat a well-defended main island. In that case, don't build any warships, just drop the soldiers on your enemy's island, then declare war.

[zippyriver]

Why didn't you use courier ship? Didn't follow that tech branch.

Nullspce. She attacked with 8. She still had other going round about. But 8 was enough to sink the few ships I had, and without being able to build and hold onto a single ship.... well explained all that already. And "You'd have to build enough cannon towers at EACH coastal facility ". :scratch: Costal facilities (fisherhut and such) I care less about. And although true it won't stop the AI from landing, it can put a damper on the AI plans. That's one of the challanging things about this island. Lot of beachs.
********

[nullspace]

Nullspce. She attacked with 8. She still had other going round about. But 8 was enough to sink the few ships I had, and without being able to build and hold onto a single ship.... well explained all that already.
My advice was aimed at what you should do in your next game to prevent your fleet from being destroyed. A "few" ships is no where near enough. You can build more ships if you build fewer towers and soldiers, and I think this is a good strategy because naval superiority is so important. If you had about 10 ships and used Liang Wu's special ability, you could beat her 8 ships with no losses because you can retreat your damaged ships, and destroy her damaged ships before they escape. After that, repair your ships and destroy the rest of hers.
And "You'd have to build enough cannon towers at EACH coastal facility ". :scratch: Costal facilities (fisherhut and such) I care less about. And although true it won't stop the AI from landing, it can put a damper on the AI plans. That's one of the challanging things about this island. Lot of beachs.
********
My point here was that if, for example, you had a warehouse and shipyard on one coast, a large shipyard and a pier on another coast, and a warehouse and whaler or another island, and you need to protect all three locations, then you would have to build a block of cannons that can beat the enemy fleet at each of the three locations. And you still need more towers or troops to defend landings on other beaches. A fleet is a better defense because one fleet can move to protect all of these places, so again, naval superiority is more important than coastal defense or land units.

[zippyriver]

I can certainly appreciate what your saying nullspace, and appreciate your comments and suggestions.

One of the problems I tend to run into with building an early fleet is, quite frankly, not enough houses. So far at the hard level, I end up getting attacked long before I can field 10 ships. At 2k (+materials) per SW, that's a lot of coin. I usually try and save some space for the eventual castle, and have room to support the larger population after housing upgrades (additional food, alcohol, tobacco, cloth). I had been sticking with medium island, but went large this time as I am developing single island plans.

Lately I have been trying to B-line to citizens so I can build walls to seal off those secondary beaches. I had to bump up my builds from the 35-47-65-100 plan outlined in the ten step program (which works great at normal difficulty level). But as so many have stated, hard difficulty is another animal altogether. Be it ships and yards, or troops and towers, you have more you have support (and the goods buildings to go with the higher population count).

I know there are things I can do to try for naval superiority (although still training my brain in those areas), but I also want to have a good plan to fall back on in case that fails. I know, for the time being, I am presenting my "empire" as an all-you-can-eat buffet for the AI. But perhaps that is just my play style, and Achilles Heel (always have been a come from behind conquerer). What caught me off guard in 1701 was how early in the game the hard AIs go nuts. All the more reason to develop a Brazil Nut defense plan.

As I stated, the ground invasions have been easy enough to handle, irregardless of which beach the enemy lands on. Allow me to explain.

I have twin beaches on the the NE and NW corners, and a cul-de-sac beach at the south (5 total). The NE two, where my WH is, is guarded by a couple of naked towers, the garrison, and 6-7 troops. This has proved to be enough to repel most invasions on that part of the island. The NW two are guarded by the remaining 6-7 troops and an inset block. The troops from there, when needed, also cover the south beach. With a large invasion, I converge both divisions for the repel, then re-divide and reinforce when the battle is over. Defending 5 beaches against two 3-star opponents will keep a person busy for certain. I am thinking of re-naming my island to "meat grinder".

Early on, I limited myself to Pikemen, namely because of their high HP. Switching to Grenadiers has put a heaver burden on my coin, but in a large pack, can sink ships. An equal mix of the two works good as well against ground troops but 4 Grenadiers won't damage a ship quick enough to sink it. The other key in this, is giving the AI something else to target besides your troops. Walls and towers are very good for that. Which brings up my reference to defensive blocks. The inset block is far enough inland to target troop ships but not far reaching over the water. The purpose of it is troop support and invasion counter measures. This design has worked very well this game.
WWWWWWWWW
WCWCWCWCW
WWWWWWWWW (It makes a rectangular 9X3 box). W=wall, C= either watch towers or cannon towers. When I use watchtowers, I set them so their range covers the shore, but not the water. Upgrading to cannon towers allows it to hit troop ships while unloading. In conjunction with troops, this structure has held the line the entire game. I have had to replace a wall section about 7-9 times, 3-4 watch towers and 1 cannon tower over the course of the whole game. With 23 wall sections (2300 coin) and 4 cannon towers (600 coin each or 300 each for WTs) it puts the building cost at about the same as 2 1/2 small warships. For it's effectiveness, it's a good deal imo. Very effective against melee troops, and with troop support is effective against ranged units aswell. I even stuck a surgery on the back side of the block so my damaged troops don't have to walk all the way back to town to get healed.

Inset block and NW stage. The stage would require some shore CTs to be effective though.

http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/6168/insetblockiw8.th.jpg (http://img263.imageshack.us/my.php?image=insetblockiw8.jpg)

I certainly am not disregarding your advice regarding naval superiority, but what does one do when that fails? (rhetorical).

****
Proceeding on the advice of more housing, and because the last couple of hours of game play has been fairly stagnant, I decided to go back quite a ways. The game save was shortly after the clay pit ran out and I had 16 bricks (not enough to do anything yet).

Using a diversionary WH on another island, and a corners patrol with the explorer, I was able to maintain a WH long enough to get a couple of brick deliveries. But as 20k coin was a bit far down the road, I had to use some of them for repairs (block repair and plantation replacement). I still had a respectable supply when I got hit hard internally. First was a poisoned well followed by a plague (only about half of the houses hit), in rebuilding the population I had to run at a deficit for a while. Right after the plague I got hit with a revolution and lost a number of my citizen houses. Even with getting the replacement houses up to settler, I still was running at a deficit. Not sure how to proceed. I can spend some bricks and get back up to 50 citizens (yes, I will still have a bunch of settlers), or try expanding further with settlers. But that will require another Town center and supporting buildings. Not sure how well that will play with the limited space on this island. When I get back to the game, the save I have is right before the 3 disasters hit, and most likely will repeat (speaking from experience). before quitting, I was able to get back to the 50 Citz, but it cost me the bricks I had. And not sure if I want to do that again.
With the deliveries I had got, before the trio of problems, I was able to seal off two of the beaches completely (minors of the twins), and half wall another (with plenty of brick remaining, but needed more coin). A wall plan was working until the financial hit from the attacks.

Of course, I will have to wait for the Queen to give me another explorer (with tools and wood) before I can drop another diversionary Wh and Wh on the main island and repeat what I did before. And hopefully I will get a nice brick delivery. Then I will have the option of either walling the remaining beaches, followed by CTs behind them; or dropping a number of shipyards. The walls will be a little cheaper coin wise. And not sure how well ships will do as the AI is starting to field LW. I would be quite miffed if my new fleet and shipyards get decimated soon after building them.

Battle report: With about 8 Grenadiers on the NE stage, I dropped down a WH and 2 cannon towers and waited for the enemy (not a long wait either lol). The shore line battle was intense. First to fall was the Wh, but with extra market coverage the towers were still active. I had to replace the towers during the battle, but was able to keep pressure on her fleet. The combination was effective. When the smoke cleared, Nadine's fleet, with the exception of maybe two run-aways was decimated. I lost a couple of troops,the Wh, and the 4 (total) CTs. This should buy me enough time for at least a couple of brick deliveries, and move the AI up the bar enough to ingratiate and get peace. It was a point in the game things could have turned around nicely. But nooooo. Emilio decided to declare again, so it was back to swatting down invasions and waiting for an opportunity to run a Wh for a while. sigh.

I did get a bit annoyed at one thing. Soon as Emilio declared war I requested help from the Queen and got the blank stare (I think I got my request in first). About a half a min or so later I got the message the Queen has come to the aid of Emilio and right after that the pop-up box telling me she denied my request. Too bad the game does not limit naval assistance to the weaker combatant. He didn't need any help, and got it. I did, and was given the left hand of fellowship. TYVM :angry:

I will say this, if not for the lack of bricks, I would have gained an upper hand already. Be it bricks or tools(and cannons), a deficiency in either area makes nutting very difficult. At least bricks are cheaper to buy. If I had to choose, I would take a deep ore mine over a deep clay pit, even with the troubles I am having this game.

[Maxie Zeus]

Well, I launched that map/game on my computer. My first reaction: What an impressively crappy island. Poor clay reserves, as noted. Also very small, so that it can only support about 96 Citizen houses (and supporting chains); weird shape, so that you have a hard time squeezing stuff in; littered with rocks that mess up building placement; and a lot of long, curved beaches for enemies to land on. If the question is "How do I play this island?" I'd be tempted to reply, "Look, just don't play that island!" Whoever settles there is basically pinning a "Kick Me" sign to his back.

(Or maybe I'm just picky. Hey, why should the Aristocrats have all the fun of being demanding?)

Anyway, two hours into the game I've managed to build 96 houses and upgraded the 81 I can upgrade to Citizen. I've also got 3 bakery chains, 5 alcohol chains, 5 cloth chains, 3 (or is it 4? can't remember) tobacco chains, and an ore-smelter-tool-weapon chain. Clay pit is exhausted, so I don't have a brick chain anymore. I also had four lumber going at one point, but I've dialed that back to three. Forewarned is forearmed, so I invested aggressively in bricks, so that I have walls along all my beaches and a stockpile of bricks left over. I have a spare fisherman (left over from early in the game), a surgery, and a garrison building with 8 troops (4 pikemen and 4 grenadiers). I'm also running a healthy surplus, although building and brick-buying expenses have kept me hovering below 3000 coins. As I've been anticipating an attack, I've spent no money on ships or shipyards.

Still to do: Move the surgery and build at least one fire house. I will build a cannon foundry later in the game.

Foreign relations: Fraternized with Tetonka (though that won't last; see below) and have excellent relations with the Indians. I paid the Ice Queen off (800 coin) when she made a demand. I've run every errand the Free Trader has asked, and I have the courier ship. Castelli is fraternized with the Aztecs. I have no off-island colonies.

The situation as it stands now:

At the 2:02 mark Madame Snowbritches declared war, and I saved the game. Less than a minute later Castelli attacked me. Ten minutes later, the game crashed.

So is it worth mentioning what happened? Probably, since it will probably happen again.

I got one last lightning strike in on Jadis the Creepy before Tetonka dropped me and allied with her. I allied with the Indians and hit her back with locusts. So, I at least got to hit her with two plagues in short order.

Meanwhile, my Explorer ship had been sailing for the Free Trader with a mission cargo when war broke out. It was chased by warships but made it to his place, where it was cornered and sunk. But at least I got the cash.

I invoked the Queen's aid and she sent two ships, one with a 5-unit army. They entered on a map edge near an island where both enemies had colonies, so I landed the army there then sent the Small Warship and the new Explorer ship off in separate directions with orders to patrol the map edges. I don't count on them lasting long, but I hope they'll distract the enemy for a little while.

Shortly after destroying my original Exploration ship the enemy laid alongside my Warehouse and bombed it to rubble. No point in rebuilding, so I demolished the ruins and closed up the rest of the beach with a wall. At some point someone tried landing troops against one of my other walled up beaches, and they all fell in the water as castaways. Man, that never ceases to be hilarious.

Tetonka hit me with a lightning storm. Pretty severe damage. When I relaunch I will make the two fire stations a priority.

Elsewhere, my army managed to destroy Nasty's colony (two tobacco chains, a marketplace, and a warehouse, plus assorted watchtowers) before galloping off to hit Castelli's place. It was as they began closing quarters there that the game crashed. One Lancer had been knocked around pretty good, but the rest were mostly fresh. If I'm able to repeat this part of the game, I'm hoping enough of that army and my Exploration ship are in good enough shape that I can pick them up and do another attack elsewhere in the archipelago.

My strategy now: Total turtle mode until I get at least 25K and sufficient cannons/wood/cloth to think about launching ships. Then wait for at least one enemy to make peace and do a crash navy build.

EDIT: zippyriver, that sounds a lot like the game I described yesterday. X steps forward, (X-1) steps back. Lack of bricks makes it very hard to rebuild after riots. BTW, who is Tetonka aligned with in your game? If you're escaping lightning strikes, that's good.

Very glad to hear about the results of that battle!

[zippyriver]

What an impressively crappy island.

She's a real beauty, eh? :rofl: :lol: :rofl:

I figure if I can turn things around on this map, a nice island/map will be a cake walk. And in MP (can't go there myself, but so what) you don't always get the chance to get the primo starting island. If you really want a good laugh, consider this was the best island out of 4 map starts.

Great read! Good luck with the shiyard drop. Only native curse I have had to deal with is flat sails. I am glad the Queen's mother-in-law didn't frat with Tetonka. I laugh at the flat sails when I don't have any ships. I honestly can't recall if Needle Nose has made a frat yet. I don't think he has (odd, now that you mention it).

{edit] I will say this, the flat sails makes decoy patrolling much harder.
Emilio is frat with the Aztecs, but if he has attacked that way, it's been unnoticeable. Nadine is frat with Lang Wu and I am frat with Amin Sahir. Tetonka doesn't have anyone to play with. awwwww.

Reload options: 6:44, no bricks, 2200 in debt or 5:32, 114 bricks and a bunch of nasty stuff comming. hmmm

Anti-tip: I recieved a small warship and an exploder, with troops on both. I had room on the explorer for the troops the SW was carrying so I pitched them over the side for the other one to pick up, and both would split directions. I was already my troop limit before the Queen's gift so I was not able to pick up the 3 mortars floating in the water :bash: [/edit}

I hadn't played a brick-deficient map before (multiple islands at normal, noob to hard). I usually have enough brick to pave Australia. Had I known the extent of the impact, I would not have wasted any.

[Maxie Zeus]

I figure if I can turn things around on this map, a nice island/map will be a cake walk. And in MP (can't go there myself, but so what) you don't always get the chance to get the primo starting island. If you really want a good laugh, consider this was the best island out of 4 map starts.

Gah! Well, I guess them's the breaks if you want a Grain-Rum-Tobacco island. Still ...

sweet Gr-R-T combo island. Giant island with a vast, rockless central plain: I was able to build and support a 126-house settlement that was entirely self-sufficient at the Citizen level, and everything except the WH (naturally) was out of bombardment range. In fact, there were parts of the island that were outside of Marketplace range even after I'd built all my Citizen-supporting chains.

The only downside: it squatted in the middle of hurricane alley. It got hit by twisters a half-dozen times, tearing the guts out of my production chains each time; one roared through the middle of my city and took out a quarter of the houses.]

Anyway, I've been rereading and digesting your remarks about cannon towers. Very interesting. I have to stockpile bricks against the inevitable lightning strikes, or I might build a few cannon towers on my beaches and see if I could sink some ships. In fact, I might build them anyway: If I see that my ships have drawn off the enemy to distant parts of the map, I'll see if I can sneak a WH in and get a big batch of bricks.

On the anti-tip: Oh, that situation is surely worth a reload. Even if you have to Gilligan those units on some deserted island.

[Eagleclaw]

This is a vey interesting thread. Thank you zipporiver.

Basically my evaluation of the difficulties of games at the hard single player level with big islands is:

A) Map revealed, Queen present, Free trader present, Free trader assignments possible: Easy
B) Map not revealed, Queen present, Free trader present, Free trader assignments possible: Easy
C) Map not revealed, Queen not present, Free trader present, Free trader assignments possible: Easy
D) Map not revealed, Queen not present, Free trader present, Free trader assignments not possible: Interesting
E) Map not revealed, Queen not present, Free trader not present: Impossible

This is based on game settings with:
Igor, Nadasky and Emilio
Large island world
Hard island difficulty
Few raw materials
Few seeds (15.000)
No refund
Strong pirates

I will admit that strong pirates can make the game easier because trong pirates make a better alliance partner. The pirate fleet is certainly stronger than the queens fleet.

I had never tried playing against only two opponents before. Normally I start out attacking Igor right away. Sometimes I simply take his island, sometimes I earn some money by letting him declare war and pay for peace a couple of times. An advantage by letting a weak Igor stay in the game is that Nadasky and Emilio will attack Igor and not you. On the other hand you can gain valuable ressources if you are prepared to manage two islands during the game.

With a revealed map there are really no problems in winning. Without revealed map you will have to buy 3 or 4 maps of the big islands to start with. Otherwise you risk not finding Igor before he gets too strong.

Without the queen you will develop a bit slower because you will miss about 10.000 at the settler level. You will have to buy wepons and build a small army before you attack Igor. This takes a bit longer than when eveything is not given to you freely by the queen. It is still not difficult.

Without free trader assignments your budget is tight and you hope for maps with good islands but you can still win.

Without the free trader your development is too slow and you will be overrun by the computer players because they do not need to produce
tools.

When I first read this thread I said to myself: This is situation A where we do not have to destroy Igor. We can even save 4.000 to maps. This should be an easy win. Then I saw some of the other players comments on the island and the brick situation. I then decided to play the game. There were a couple of things that I did not quite understand:

Island world: large
Island difficulty: hard
Big islands, revealed, Raw material:few

Emilio and Nadasky plus bottom 7

Seed:few, no refunds, normal pirates plus bottom 5

Conditions: 500k coin, 10k ppl, 30 pcs castle. All 3 required.

Map number: 2780103

What is bottom 7?
What is bottom 5?

Since the map info is there. I'll throw it down as a challange. AARs are very welcomed. Don't cheese it by sinking and AI pre initial warehouse.

What are you saying here? I do not understand a thing. Please write it again. I am not English and do not understand. I included strong pirates instead of normal ones - just in case.

After 13 minutes I had 2 brick works and 2 tool smiths working. I was buying bricks and tobacco at the Indians and selling tobacco to Tetonka where I bought wool and food (I continue to do that during the entire game). I have bought 30 tons weapon.

After 33 minutes I have 535 inhabitants, Nadasky has 420 and Emilio 412. I have one ship, they have two. I have a warehouse and a market
building on the first island to the north. I will use it later to get whale oil. Unfortunately I do not secure the island in time. Later Emilio will take the rest of the island.

After 1:42 I have 1665 inhabitants, Nadasky has 1152 and Emilio has 1560. I have a trade agreement with Emilio.

After 1:50 I built a garrison in order to resarch in cannons. I have no soldiers and only my explorer ship. I am selling lamp oil and ambra and have started to earn serious money. I have build a second iron ore mine and a second ore melter.

After 2:00 I build a small wharf and a small war ship.

After 2:32 I have 8 small war ships and think I can start feeling secure. I have no soldiers, no watch towers and no canon towers.

During this time I have been paying tribute to Emilio and Nadasky. They still have more ships than I do but I think the game is won now. I can afford to build small warship as fast as I can produce the guns.

The most important thing is to avoid war against Nadasky and Emilio untill you are stronger than they are. They will not declare war if your economy is not far worse than their economy and you do not provoke them (That is why you always want to destroy Igor right away - Igor is inpredictable and dangerous). You also have to pay tribute to Nadasky and Emilio when they ask for it. Just pay what they want. Pay more in extra tributes to them. Make them happy. Normally I build a lodge and use ingratiation a lot. For this game I have not build a lodge yet. I will before I start the war.

Thinks can be different in your games. In my game Emilio has settled on the north western island and Nadaski on the south western island. She seem to have some difficulties there.

A faster way to win this is to attack Nadasky right away but I my undestanding is that such an attack is not allowed in this game?

By the way I have my warehouse on the south coast in the small bay. If necessary it can be guarded by canon towers and will not easily be destroyed by enemyships.

[Maxie Zeus]

Well, the two guys doing the most talking--me and zippyriver--have admitted to being noobs to the game. So we probably do look like total idiots.

I think zippyriver has made clear he's interested in exploring defensive strategies, which is something that I've also been experimenting with lately. The strategy you've pursued is the opposite: highly aggressive. If I understand you correctly, you limit yourself early in the game on the food and wool production. Am I right? You only have weaver huts to process Iroquois-produced wool, and you also get your food from them? That would mean you have extra money to devote to the advanced manufacturing, whose profits can then be later recycled to put your island on a more self-sufficient basis?

Well, I am still feeling shy about trying such a strategy--I've not seen it discussed in depth on these forums, and I'm very leery about relying on foreign cultures. Unless one can get and maintain naval superiority early in the game, it would seem to me that you risk being easily destabilized and starved out.

But it's very interesting, and it's one reason I'm grateful for this thread. Suggestions like yours and nullspace's about what to do in a concrete situation (like this game world) are very helpful to a newbie like me.

What is bottom 7?
What is bottom 5?

I think he just means that the other entries on that screen (which for "bottom 7" would be "Queen, Free Trader, Ramirez, the four foreign cultures) are checked "on."

Since the map info is there. I'll throw it down as a challange. AARs are very welcomed. Don't cheese it by sinking and AI pre initial warehouse.

What are you saying here? I do not understand a thing. Please write it again. I am not English and do not understand. I included strong pirates instead of normal ones - just in case.

Okay, at least you admitted you didn't know what he meant. I'm a native English speaker, and I don't know what he meant either, but was too shy to ask :blush:

EDIT: if you haven't built the lodge, how do know the AI's population levels?

You know, the CivFanatics forum has a "Game of the Month" feature (or had; I haven't looked in a long time) where mods would post a game for download, and then people would play it and compare notes on what they did and what happened during the game. That might be a fun thing to do with this game and might be quite educational too. (It wouldn't even have to be downloaded. Just note a map number and the settings and let people fire it up themselves, right?)

[nullspace]

Eagleclaw knows what he's talking about. The combat in this game favors the aggressor. Build a decent number of ships, then ambush your enemy's ships before they group up into one big fleet. After that, you can just blockade them and they'll never be a threat again. You can win the entire war with no troops, no towers, and slightly fewer ships than they have. This works against Igor, too.

I played the map number that zippyriver posted, too. The island isn't bad. It's small and only has one clay pit, but Amin Sahir is nearby to buy bricks from, and tobacco and sugarcane are great for warring at citizen level, since you don't have to protect any other islands or trade ships. Also Liang Wu is nearby so it's easy to fraternize with him so I can use his power when the shooting starts.

The game went like this:
1: Fill the entire town radius with citizen houses. At this point, the entire island was nearly full of production buildings.
2: Build about 10 warships and fraternize with Liang Wu.
3: Crush Castelli's fleet and destroy coastal buildings on his main island.
4: Do the same to Nadasky. They were both crippled soon after they got to merchant level.

I didn't colonize any islands, so Nadasky did not dislike me. Well, I did colonize one island to get a treasure for the free trader. I didn't bother with the lodge or paying tribute because I knew I'd be fighting anyway. I didn't build any soldiers until after my ships had sailed to battle. I didn't build any towers until a few of Nadasky's ships started shooting my warehouse when my fleet was on the other side of the map.

That is an aggressive strategy, but aggression has the advantage in this game. If you really want to play a defensive strategy, I think diplomacy and deterrence is the only hope. A fighting defense really doesn't work well. Turtling on one island may keep you alive, but you'll never be able to get to aristocrat level and win the game. Once you spread across several islands, you'll need a dominating fleet to protect your shipping. But you're still better off preemptively declaring war than waiting for them to attack you.

I think an effective defense strategy would be based on convincing the opponents to never declare war on you. Ingratiate, pay tribute, pay for trade agreements, colonize as few islands as possible, leave room on your islands so an opponent can colonize if they want that island, kill off the pirates, and build a big deterrent military. Maybe building cannon towers would be a cheaper deterrent than building ships. But the problem is that if you spend money and resources on all this and someone does declare war on you, then you're screwed. You don't have a military that can protect you.

[Eagleclaw]

Thank you Maxie Zeus for your interpretations of the buttons.

You have some questions.

I think zippyriver has made clear he's interested in exploring defensive strategies, which is something that I've also been
experimenting with lately. The strategy you've pursued is the opposite: highly aggressive. If I understand you correctly, you limit yourself
early in the game on the food and wool production. Am I right? You only have weaver huts to process Iroquois-produced wool, and you also get your food from them? That would mean you have extra money to devote to the advanced manufacturing, whose profits can then be later recycled to put your island on a more self-sufficient basis?

Well, I am still feeling shy about trying such a strategy--I've not seen it discussed in depth on these forums, and I'm very leery about
relying on foreign cultures. Unless one can get and maintain naval superiority early in the game, it would seem to me that you risk being
easily destabilized and starved out.

Well my strategy IS agressive against the computer players. We human layers have the advantage right after start where the computer players
are just sitting and waiting. Igor is unreliable so why not remove him from the game right away. You then end up in a game like this with only Emilio and Nadasky present. They can both be dealt with peacefully and you have an easy win.

No I do not limit my wool production. I just need a lot of wool for ship building later and Tetonkas wool is cheap. I delay my food production because I need to produce bricks and tools as soon as possible. I need at least two brick works and two tool smiths at the settler level. In addition I buy tools passively from the free trader and bricks actively from the Indians. When I have my brick works and tool smiths THEN I start producing food.

As soon as I can I build more iron or mines and clay pits. You need to develop very fast in order not to fall too much behind Nadasky and
Emilio. If you keep a good pace there is no need to a defensive or aggresive strategy - you simply keep the peace until you are stronger than them. You can then chose to attack as I do and finish the game fast or continue to trade and buld castles if you like. Before reaching the Aristocrat level I like to have 3 - 5 tool smiths and at least 4 brick works. Othervise your development are are too slow. Dividing one ore melter between a tool smith and the weapon production will make you fall behind in economic development very fast and Nadasky and Emilio will declare war on you very soon.

As far as I can see from your communication it is not mine but your strategy that is extremely risky. You spend a lot on military and fleet
very early and fall behind economically resulting in a war you can very easily lose. I keep my peace with Nadasky and Emilio for a very long
time (and you call ME aggressive :wink: ).

The main risk is that you may expand your production in a way that will not give a return very soon. Then you are lost.

There is only one way to get naval superiority very soon and that is to attack at the beginning and sink the opponents one or two ships. When the computer player builds a ship yard you will probably not regain naval supperiority untill the Aristocrat level (unless you are on the island and simply capture the shipyard for yourself).

The trade with the foreign cultures speeds up the creation of a sound economy remendeously. It also helps you getting closer to fraternization. As soon as the brick and tool production is secured I produce my own food, so the reliance is of short duration. At that stage I continue to buy food from Tetonka and sell it. If you can develop fast enough to support more people than the computer players you are winning.


EDIT: if you haven't built the lodge, how do know the AI's population levels?
I use the poor mans spy (Escape - End Game) and look at the statistics. Then simply return to the game.
That is much cheaper and more reliable than using the spy. The information about ships is better then the information supplied by the spy.

Here you can also see if Nadasky or Emilo is going to attack soon (If you are at the buttom of the list and there is a clear gap between you
and the player above you).

[zippyriver]

I think he just means that the other entries on that screen (which for "bottom 7" would be "Queen, Free Trader, Ramirez, the four foreign cultures) are checked "on."
Correct.

1.Since the map info is there. I'll throw it down as a challange. 2. AARs are very welcomed.3. Don't cheese it by sinking and AI pre initial warehouse.
:lol:
1> Maxie Zeus had asked for the map info. I was also inviting others to play the map/island. Not unlike the "map of the month" contest.
2> AARs : After Action Reports. Your story on that particular game. How it progressed for you, Interesting battles, Lucky breaks you (or the AI) got, Dumb moves.. No real guidelines for an AAR, just your story.
3> If your going to destroy an AI before they have a chance to at least get established, I fail to see the point in adding them in the game settings in the first place. Which is why I didn't include Igor, and made that statement. Developing your island with only one AI to worry about is different than when having to worry about two (or 3).

Sorry for the confusion.
**********************

It's interesting reading on others initial strategies. Initial housing numbers still make me go :eek: . Filling a city center with housing only is something not in my style (don't take that wrong). I have been trying to determine development and building placement going on the concept of a core block of support building, and city centers around the outside VS the tight packed houses and support buildings around the edge. I see screen shots with 3 senates, 3 this, 3 that. A city center is only 15 coin support so having a number of those would be cheaper than having a number of each of the other support buildings X each type. But I have not gotten an oppertunity yet to make any concrete decisions on that yet. So when I say not in my style, keep in mind my "style" is a fluid thing at the moment.

I likewise am leery about relying on foregin cultures for early needs. Before reading the above AARs, If you had asked me if you could support a town center full of houses with food only from the natives, I would have expressed serious doubt. Early food concerns, has been one of the factors for my reluctance to massive expand housing early on. I like to get to 500 citizen (for the bakery chain) before exploding. The thought of trying to support a large population with butcher shops and fisherman huts make me cringe. But not as much as the idea of building a bunch of those, only to tear them down a short period later because you had grain open up. It just seems too wastefull.
And with starting out building fewer houses, it's easier for the AI to get a stronger economy.

I was not sure of the AI war triggers. I thought it might be certain game milestones, like: after so many hours of play, after reaching a certain developmental stage (X# settlers/citizens), X# free trader quests completed. I never considered the trigger was just the size of the economical gap, as with all the bonuses the AI gets I figured that was inevitable anyway. Kind of a cheesy trigger imo, but won't go into that pointless rant. It is what it is.

One of the things I see mentioned often is "pay the tributes when demanded" which made me go :scratch: . I would pay them if they asked for it, but most of the time I rarely get a single tribute demand before the AI declares. The AI just flatly declares war without giving a chance for butkiss diplomacy. And many times I have given tribute and paid demands only to have the AI declare war soon after that anyway. Economy VS economy. I should have caught that. :bash: Thanks.

I do find it frustrating when I give tribute or try to ingratiate and it fails. Lose the coin, or have to wait such a long time to try and ingratiate again. I only hit sucess with those about 50% of the time. Ya'll make it sound like you have a 100% sucess rate with those :lol: . I wonder if the sucess rate is also tied to the economic gap.

I think zippyriver has made clear he's interested in exploring defensive strategies
Indeed. But that is not at the exclusion of AARs on avoiding a come from behind situation. All strategies are of course welcome and open to discussion. :cheers:

edit: Early mass production of houses and supporting with native food; and sealing off all beachs with walls (total turtle), have been two of the most thought provoking concetps so far for me.

Going for the challange, not the win per-se.
If the hard AI is too easy using an early ship rush, impose self limits. Like only attack if attacked (never declare war yourself), etc.. So if you didn't use an early ship rush, how would you proceed? Obviously, very early agression works. But is that the ONLY way to win at hard? Surely other options can be developed (I would hope, anyway).

I will admit that strong pirates can make the game easier because strong pirates make a better alliance partner.
Oh yeah. I was thinking about this too. I know that if you pick on the pirates, it has a positive effect on the AI. But since that is not an option for me in this one, and getting an alliance with him is approaching, I have given an alliance there some thought. It might be the key in turning this one around. If I do get an alliance with Ramirez, will that kill the Fraternization with the Indians? Or can you be allied with both?
--
********
Dividing one ore melter between a tool smith and the weapon production will make you fall behind in economic development very fast and Nadasky and Emilio will declare war on you very soon.

Interesting. I guess that goes hand in hand with the number of early houses. I have not had a problem with tools this game, and maybe that is the problem.

My smelter currently supports all 3 (1 tool, 1 cannon, 1 weapon). When I don't need the weapons and cannons, I shut those two down and continue with tools as needed, and with only running one building that requires "raw iron", allows raw iron to stockpile for the times I have to run all 3 at the same time. I also like to have a warehouse stock of iron ore, so I can still run the smelter if needed with the mine shut down during times of cash stress (post plague, riot, goods expansion etc.)

[Eagleclaw]

Thank you for the clarification. It is a great idea to share this.

If I do get an alliance with Ramirez, will that kill the Fraternization with the Indians? Or can you be allied with both?

Yes alliance with Ramirez will kill fraternization with the other two cultures (you must destroy the other two in order to impress Ramirez).

The cultures you destroy will be the allies of Emilio and Nadamsky.