"I'll Lead" Battles

[chavenduka]

Okay, I just started fighting battles personally instead of letting the AI handle them. I've noticed some pretty remarkable things, and I wonder whether I am misunderstanding them and/or whether others have noted the same things:

(1) There is a HUGE difference in casualties between fighting the battle personally and letting the AI handle. In other words, there are some. When AI fights and you have a winning-type army then you tend to receive VERY few casualties. This disrupts the flow of the game because of no need to replenish your troops in the field.

(2) In a castle assault, it seems to me there is no benefit to a defender having a palisade. Attacking with no siege weapons, I marched my troops right through open gates.

(3) Different battle, this time I'm defending a castle. I had 2 lines of defense. The first line consisted of 4 units of castle guards, which I intended to use to hold the enemy lines in place while my second line outflanked the enemy and reinforced the front line as needed. However, as soon as the enemy hit one of my guard units the entire line (which I had grouped if that matters) surrendered and evaporated, after taking barely a casualty. WTF was that?

Now I am used to playing RTW and realize I should not expect the KoH battle engine to be as robust. But losing an entire line of 4 units, 3 of which had not even engaged yet, blows me away. Granted, this is only one sample and perhaps I hit a fluke, which is why I am making this post.

What are the observations/experiences of others?

Thanks.

[Elvain]

2) sometime this happens, but not usualy. It happened to me in very few cases...

3)maybe the enemy marshall had dread skill and you had some morale penalty (being orthodox?). But to be honest I too don't understand why castle guards did that, they don't have any special morale penalty.
However, morale plays very important role in the game. Army of fresh peasants can destroy army of templars or feudal knights who had no rest for long time and have low morale...

[Angryminer]

1. When I was new to KoH I experienced the same as you. But by now my capabilities have increased and I lead about all batkes myself because I take by far less casualties when I lead the battles myself.
2. This happens when the AI wants to move out of the gates. Is you game patched (or NorthAmerican version)? In the patched version the AI moves very very seldomly out of the castle.
3. Until today I never observed fleeing townguards (in 200 hours of gameplay (yes, twohundret, no typo) and loads of battles). I guess in the same direction as Elvain.
Another questions: Did your town have food in stock before the castle was attacked? If not: Of course starving troops surrender!

Angryminer

[Da Bomb]

When I let the computer lead the battles (which I always do because of the time factor) it can be hard to capture an enemy town with one army (or even two full feudal knights armies sometimes) so would you recommend leading them to help? And what marshal skills should I use?
Also, why do I sometimes siege someone to have it say "Winning decisively" and just slowly go down to balanced then losing, and so on...?

[Angryminer]

It is not very wise to lead a cavalry army against townguards, because they are armored, and have very big and evil halberds that count as spear-weapons. In other words: Cavalry will be plainly slaughtered like peasants.

The "estimated" result is just estimated. That means when you lead high-quality troops against low-quality troops into battle you will propably win, but as fortune wants, the word "propably" isn't a reliable friend and you may end up with your high-quality troops dead because the other marshal did something wise.
But I don' think you want me to explain why war isn't calculateable, do you?

Angryminer

[Mantis]

I'm having the same problem. I played as Ulster my first game, and tried to invade a province just below me. I got decimated. So - I reload the game, and build up a second marshall. Both of them have 4 ladder units (siege workshop), and a full 9 slots (3 bow, 3 sword, 3 spear). I go back and attack - I get decimated.

I reload the game, and start burning villages, etc. He leaves the castle to chase me, I start to seige with the 2nd marshall. I'm winning decisively. He returns to join the defence, and it is balanced. I join the 2nd Marshall in, and I'm winning decisively. Then slightly. Then balanced. Then I start losing, until I am decimated again...

:scratch:

[Elvain]

you have problems with army morale. Get leadership and conqueror skills...

the enemy marshall probably (I am almost sure) has dread skill which decreases morale of your armies

[Angryminer]

As far as I know in the sieges the actual number of soldiers is used to estimate the siege's result. But the defensive-modifiers are not. That means Leinster (the southern kingdom) propably has a trench or some other defensive building that enables their troops to endure a siege longer than they would normally. That is why the calculation is wrong.
Also, it may be possible that your troops run out of food during the siege. If that happens the siege-attrition become very big and your soldiers die fast of starvation while the people in the sieged castle still have plenty of food.

Angryminer

[Mortimer]

Also, why do I sometimes siege someone to have it say "Winning decisively" and just slowly go down to balanced then losing, and so on...?

It sounds to me like you had the better army to start, but in time you ran out of food and they straved to death, when you do a seige you will see an icon with a green line that slowly decreases, that is your food. When it drops to 0 it will start flashing, and your troops start dying. you should click on the town and press the assult button if this happens, or ideally before it happens, that means they stop the seige and actually attack. in a seige your army is just camping out starving the city and keeping them from recieving food, not really fighting. also if they have balastia towers you are being shot at as you are waiting in a seige so that will kill you over time.

Personnally I almost always seige first, then assult if needed sometimes you do win without fighting, and siege equiptment helps

[chavenduka]

Thanks for the feedback everyone...I will continue to experiment instead of giving the game (or at least "I'll Lead" battles) up as a lost cause.

In reference to my #3, however...as I said, 3 of the 4 squads that surrendered had not even engaged an enemy yet. Is that typical? Could it possibly be because I had grouped the 4 squads together for control purposes? Also, food was not an issue as this was a brand new marshal I had hired seconds before the battle, and there was no siege before the assault.

[Angryminer]

When two squads stand side-by-side and both are scared like hell and one of the squads flees the battle the second one will also run. If there is a third in the vicinity it will see two squads fleeing and also run away (if it was scared before).
I use this feature quite often in battles. When I find a weak spot in the enemy's formation I concentrate my forces there, make them flee and drive them directly through the other squads, scaring the hell out of them.

All of your friends shouting "Run for your lifes! There is no hope! We are all doomed!" doesn't exactly make you want to fight... :wink:

Angryminer

[chavenduka]

I agree, your fleeing/surrendering neighbor should have a profound effect on your own morale. But in this case all 4 squads went simultaneously. Is that normal?

[chavenduka]

Turns out I had saved just prior to the battle so I was able to recreate what happened. Same exact thing, so I reloaded again and checked out squad morale. Sure enough, the town guard all had 1 red vs full green for all my other squads. So I guess the next question is why would that be? What causes a town guard's morale to be as low as possible as the battle begins? Something that would not affect the other squads?

Enemy marshal did not have Dread, nor any other skill for that matter. Food supply fine. Castle was one that had been in my kingdom long enough to have no nostalgia.

Any thoughts?

[OddjobXL]

Just a point of clarification, Angryminer. You mention AI formations? I don't think I've ever seen the AI form his troops, as in his whole army, up into a line or any kind of formation. They tend to just come at me as a horde.

[Angryminer]

chavenduka: That's strange indeed. Did you modify your KoH?

@OddjobXL: The AI moves to you, so it takes the disadvantage of having to lead the moving soldiers to leave the nice "I wait here in formation"-feeling to you to make you feel better. But it keeps a structure during the march. Infantry is usually mixed with the archers, cavalry by the side, the marshal behind that. That way the AI's archers can shoot arrows early, the infantry is near to intercept attacks on the archers and the cavalry is usually used to flank your army while the marshall is protected by the army yet near enough to be protected by his soldiers.

Sometimes I find some archers unprotected by any infantry in these lines and then I use this weak spot to do away with them and drive these terrorized archers fleeing through the whole enemy army.

Angryminer

[Illuminatus!]

I found something similar...I was defending Marakesh in a siege...I had just run out of food and then the attackers decided to assault the town - I decided to lead the battle myself to see if the situation was salvagable. My garrisonned units (six units of cataphracts) were all at full squad strength and morale while my town guards were down to one man per squad, with one or two exceptions, and all of the town guards had one bar of morale. Shouldn't the cataphracts have been in a similar situation as the town guards? Or does the siege/starvation engine go through the units and starve them, one by one, like some sicko stalker/serial killer ( :plot: )?

[Mortimer]

@OddjobXL: The AI moves to you, so it takes the disadvantage of having to lead the moving soldiers to leave the nice "I wait here in formation"-feeling to you to make you feel better.

that detracts me from the game a little, all you have to do is stand there and wait then let your archers fire some before charging, everything nice and neat until the charge. I think it would be great for a patch or a mod to make the enemy stand and wait when defending. the only time they remotly wait is when in a walled city. but realistically if you are attacking an army you should be forced to be on the offencive, not a "I am attacking you now come and get me" type attitude.

[chavenduka]

That's interesting that you experienced that, Illum...it shows I am not the only one. However, there is a big difference which is unexplainable to me. In your case you were sieged and ran out of food, so the unit damage and morale drop are logical (although I agree, it seems unsual that it did not affect all of your troops). But in my situation I had no palisade so the assault happened immediately and with full food supplies.

Angry, yes I have modded. I am using your very good GoG 1.6 with changes--ironically, to make castle guards tougher. I upped their defense, attack, and damage ratings. Following this occurance I also upped their morale, although I am uncomfortable leaving it at that and would feel better if I had some idea why they were so low on morale.

[Angryminer]

You are free to move towards the enemy while he is moving towards you.
But I bet you never did because you didn't want to?

Angryminer

[theoverlord3]

i find battles very easy, all you need is

a=archer
I= inf
G=general
B=bastials

G
I I I
AAAAAA
B B B B

the enemy will no now try to attack my gen as he is infront, i then just move im back past my army allowing the archers to kill every thing, oh bastalis kich arse, usally kill 10-20 men each.

seiges are the same, i dont think i have ever lost using this tatic, unless the at the end when my gen attacks the enemys i lose some how.