johanan
01-03-2006, 10:51
I'm sorry because i don't know where to place this new tread. It concerns "modding" but its also some thoughts about "gameplay"...
I have had a look on Elvain's work on new and more accurate provinces. If you make historical division of province or county u face some true problems. Because u come deeper in geographical reality u meet the political problem of this time : anarchy and division.
Europe changes with Bararian invasions
The fall of roman empire have let many tribes, cities and territories on his own. With that barbarians invasions alloyed new peoples and their chiefs to take over and control territories occupied with other peoples.
In fact the only roman country that will be somehow preserved from germanic invasion is Ireland in western Europe, from where christian culture will spread again trough monastic, schools (for prince and aristocratic eduation) and missionaries efforts.
Rome and Bysance are also old empire centers that will have also great cultural and political influence in this time.
Rome is still the town of religious roman administration that makes Germanic Imperators, and Bysance is the real survival of Eastern Roman Empire until 4th crusade.
The wish of Catholique Church is to reform the political and religious unity of Roman Empire but enter in conflict with alternative religious cultures and 'pre-national' policies. (Islam, 'heretics', temporal authorites tentatives for bishops or pope nominations, diversity of monasterical orders, etc)
vassality vs royal administration : authority conflict for county or provincial leadership
In a new mod, if u have to keep the political organisation with 9 knights basis, (that is reasonnable because its the size of a 'royal house') u will realise quickly that u cant hold surrelly more than 20 or 30 provinces.
In his new "region of medival Europe" province concept Elvain found out that a province like Aquitaine have 22 counties and whole France 110 counties !
I'm agree with that but how can u keep this much people and find forces to overcome other countries ?
With that u don't even has neccesity or utility to higher marschal fees, (u will need them all !) even to make rebels harder : With quite few chance to survive until next war...
This comes from a confusion between direct royal administration and feodal reality.
In fact around 1200 in Kingdom of France the King has few territories/counties under his 'direct administration'. And Royal power then is all but a dictature because other surrounding counties and provinces are owned by 'Vassals' that have as much power on their own land that King has on his one.
And the only means to expand king direct influence are two kind : marriage or conquest.
But conquest has a main inconvenient : because all feodal organisation is based on 'fidelity', if the king begins to make war to his direct vassals to gain their famillial patrimonies/properties... even his army composed with 'vassals' duke, count, barons/mens will disband !!! And all vassals will turn against King and design one other more respectfull of feodal laws !
Terms definition
In consequence i observe that 'vassality' relation we have in game is 'historitically wrong' !
Vassality is much more stronger than 'alliance pact' and concerns the 'national' provinces, not conquered other countries.
It designs the situation of feodal administration : when King needed army forces he could ask his vassals to join him on war. Each one under his own flag !!!
'Royal domain' is the territory that the King could Tax as he wishes... until people rebellion (of course) or democratic organisation which with province or county parliement or local/town commune realise evolution toward modern state, with 'charter organisation' and against feodal system. A king then will manage to put appart 'vassals' to sign 'charter' with town/county or province parliement that will substitute to feodal laws.
'Tribute' its situation of conquered or non-indépendant countries. That are allies or tribute payers that could be high level on a non-permanent way...
Its may be relative to counterpart given as security, loyalty, etc. (?)
(I don't understant wat they say in game that some 'town' pay 'tribute'... Real term is 'Tax' i mean.)
Political alternatives and new strategies
What would be nice is to have ability to conquest province from 'felon' or 'dishonourable' barons... but county after county...
That means that one CAN'T come over a province by conquering only one (!!!)castle/main town but has many as there are counties/castles in a province.
And at least, when u conquered all counties and defeated the 'bad' lord (except this lord can propose again 'allegeance'/'vassality' and he can have his province back or only one or more counties) u have the choose :
1. to delegate another 'lord' from ur court (merchant, spy, marshal, builder, landlord with specific priorities in province dev.) and he become the legal owner of the province (as a spy became king another country) but he has to ask your permission for marriage or alliance with others kingdom...
But one time he is ordened as 'duke' or 'count' he do not belong anymore to ur court and u cant replace him from his new assignmentcounty
2. to take the new province under direct royal administration...
It is quite the actual game possibility
We may consider that u can hold a new county alone aswell but with risk that it will ask its rattachment to its original province soon... nostalgy ? rebelion ? spy tactic ?
3. to reconize democratic rights and give 'charter' to a province or county ...
This third alternative will gave avantages but with some inconvenients.
Sign charter with a province or county will mean :
(+)
- less difficulty to impose royal authority ;
- less revolts or rebeles in territory ;
- no or few political initiative in diplomacy by province authority (except the royal honor very bad or far away) ;
- raised economic or business incomes,
- better demography...
(-)
- autonomy of economic choices (no King spending for economic buildings);
- less possibility to higher taxes
- less or more ability to raise food or town milicians/army forces depending of king honor or national danger...
- a province may recognize another king children as 'legitime heir' (!!!)
A 'charter' province can accept or refuse 'royal marshal/military' access to town (enter city, raise troops, or furnish food to army)
A 'Charter' county/city can 'give keys' to military forces with or without siege or fight until last man against foreign invasion.
I have had a look on Elvain's work on new and more accurate provinces. If you make historical division of province or county u face some true problems. Because u come deeper in geographical reality u meet the political problem of this time : anarchy and division.
Europe changes with Bararian invasions
The fall of roman empire have let many tribes, cities and territories on his own. With that barbarians invasions alloyed new peoples and their chiefs to take over and control territories occupied with other peoples.
In fact the only roman country that will be somehow preserved from germanic invasion is Ireland in western Europe, from where christian culture will spread again trough monastic, schools (for prince and aristocratic eduation) and missionaries efforts.
Rome and Bysance are also old empire centers that will have also great cultural and political influence in this time.
Rome is still the town of religious roman administration that makes Germanic Imperators, and Bysance is the real survival of Eastern Roman Empire until 4th crusade.
The wish of Catholique Church is to reform the political and religious unity of Roman Empire but enter in conflict with alternative religious cultures and 'pre-national' policies. (Islam, 'heretics', temporal authorites tentatives for bishops or pope nominations, diversity of monasterical orders, etc)
vassality vs royal administration : authority conflict for county or provincial leadership
In a new mod, if u have to keep the political organisation with 9 knights basis, (that is reasonnable because its the size of a 'royal house') u will realise quickly that u cant hold surrelly more than 20 or 30 provinces.
In his new "region of medival Europe" province concept Elvain found out that a province like Aquitaine have 22 counties and whole France 110 counties !
I'm agree with that but how can u keep this much people and find forces to overcome other countries ?
With that u don't even has neccesity or utility to higher marschal fees, (u will need them all !) even to make rebels harder : With quite few chance to survive until next war...
This comes from a confusion between direct royal administration and feodal reality.
In fact around 1200 in Kingdom of France the King has few territories/counties under his 'direct administration'. And Royal power then is all but a dictature because other surrounding counties and provinces are owned by 'Vassals' that have as much power on their own land that King has on his one.
And the only means to expand king direct influence are two kind : marriage or conquest.
But conquest has a main inconvenient : because all feodal organisation is based on 'fidelity', if the king begins to make war to his direct vassals to gain their famillial patrimonies/properties... even his army composed with 'vassals' duke, count, barons/mens will disband !!! And all vassals will turn against King and design one other more respectfull of feodal laws !
Terms definition
In consequence i observe that 'vassality' relation we have in game is 'historitically wrong' !
Vassality is much more stronger than 'alliance pact' and concerns the 'national' provinces, not conquered other countries.
It designs the situation of feodal administration : when King needed army forces he could ask his vassals to join him on war. Each one under his own flag !!!
'Royal domain' is the territory that the King could Tax as he wishes... until people rebellion (of course) or democratic organisation which with province or county parliement or local/town commune realise evolution toward modern state, with 'charter organisation' and against feodal system. A king then will manage to put appart 'vassals' to sign 'charter' with town/county or province parliement that will substitute to feodal laws.
'Tribute' its situation of conquered or non-indépendant countries. That are allies or tribute payers that could be high level on a non-permanent way...
Its may be relative to counterpart given as security, loyalty, etc. (?)
(I don't understant wat they say in game that some 'town' pay 'tribute'... Real term is 'Tax' i mean.)
Political alternatives and new strategies
What would be nice is to have ability to conquest province from 'felon' or 'dishonourable' barons... but county after county...
That means that one CAN'T come over a province by conquering only one (!!!)castle/main town but has many as there are counties/castles in a province.
And at least, when u conquered all counties and defeated the 'bad' lord (except this lord can propose again 'allegeance'/'vassality' and he can have his province back or only one or more counties) u have the choose :
1. to delegate another 'lord' from ur court (merchant, spy, marshal, builder, landlord with specific priorities in province dev.) and he become the legal owner of the province (as a spy became king another country) but he has to ask your permission for marriage or alliance with others kingdom...
But one time he is ordened as 'duke' or 'count' he do not belong anymore to ur court and u cant replace him from his new assignmentcounty
2. to take the new province under direct royal administration...
It is quite the actual game possibility
We may consider that u can hold a new county alone aswell but with risk that it will ask its rattachment to its original province soon... nostalgy ? rebelion ? spy tactic ?
3. to reconize democratic rights and give 'charter' to a province or county ...
This third alternative will gave avantages but with some inconvenients.
Sign charter with a province or county will mean :
(+)
- less difficulty to impose royal authority ;
- less revolts or rebeles in territory ;
- no or few political initiative in diplomacy by province authority (except the royal honor very bad or far away) ;
- raised economic or business incomes,
- better demography...
(-)
- autonomy of economic choices (no King spending for economic buildings);
- less possibility to higher taxes
- less or more ability to raise food or town milicians/army forces depending of king honor or national danger...
- a province may recognize another king children as 'legitime heir' (!!!)
A 'charter' province can accept or refuse 'royal marshal/military' access to town (enter city, raise troops, or furnish food to army)
A 'Charter' county/city can 'give keys' to military forces with or without siege or fight until last man against foreign invasion.