Crusade

[Siena]

Originally posted by Frujin
Ok. There units which are common in entire Europe as simple swordsman or peasants. Or archers. There is another groups of units which are available in specific regions only if you own that region with specific Kingdoms. It is not only religion counted.

Just imagine France accpeted Islam. Than what? What units they can made in Paris?

Or Seljuks taking Ortodox Christianity. Than what? Or even more interesting - Seljuks changing to Ortodox, than conquering Paris. What units thay can make in Paris?

Instead of explaining I'm asking questions just to point out that it is a bot more interesting than simple Arabian-European unit sets.

But please give us some time and we will explain all this in a special article.

It seems to me, that Paris would always be able to make only certain local units - no matter who conquered and of what religion conquerors would be.
Religion only affects certain - zealot units. Like monks-knights (Templar, Teutonic). Also, Seljucs could not build turk units in Paris. And whether Seljuct are Muslim or Orthodox - does not affect what units they can build in Paris.
Paris can produce only its local units.

Same - if France conquers Egypt. They cannot start building European units there. There are only local people there. Zealots would never fight for conqueror, but local people just might - if given good incentive. But their armorment would always be local.

Unless we consider colonization or something like that. But that takes a long long long time. Especially with different religions and cultures.

The gameplay issue is - that if you can build same units everywhere no matter what faction you play - then game would seem the same each time you play.
But it is not really so, since factions are made unique not only by units, but their location, enemies, economy and so on.
Also, each faction could have a unique unit that only that faction could build...

For example - lets say Lithuania starts the war with Rus and conquers a few provinces. What can it build in those? It cannot build Lithuanian units in Russian provinces. Ir can build only local - Russian units. If they happen to be the same - swordsmen, light cavalry - then it is simple (however to remind the point - that Lithuanians had a bit different cavalry from Russians). Also, it would be logical, that while Rus still has its own provinces - the units that conquerors build in Russia could be made a little bit more expensive for them - inhabitants don't want to fight for new conquerors for nothing. And if Russia does not exist anymore - price for units that conqueror builds in Russia goes down to normal.
Also, if Lithuania conquers all of Russian provinces - it could be allowed to build Russian special unit also. That could be incentive to get all provinces of same country. But that is optional...
Also - if Lithuania remains pagan - it can never build some Russian orthodox units - if such exists.

Well, some ideas anyway :)

[Bora]

Originally posted by Siena
you could not really "powerup" units in MTW. The research would simply let you build stronger units of the same class. Or you could "rebuild" the same unit with better attributes (armor, weapons) if you had researched those.
What I mean is - that research would not change your existing units - you would have to build them again, anyway.

So it really does not matter if you build a "powered up" pickemen, or you just build a new unit with better attributes, that has same statistics as "powered up" pickemen.

However - this making it possible to build stronger units with research - has its flip side. You reach a point when your army consists solely of super-units, that nobody can beat.
And at that point the game ceases to be interesting. You will win every battle anyway...
So game is interesting only to the point that you build up your super-units and then defeat enemy a few times - later the pattern becomes too familiar - and too boring.

I think - the more gambling you have to do in the game - the more interesting it is. You don't really need tons of units, and super-units for that.
There is no gamble in the battle, when you know that your units are unbeatable.

in MTW the units where new ones of course. but at the bottom line is nothing else then a upgradet version. so thats why i wrote so. if you have seen the actual unit list it doesnt seem very much.
and KoH steps in the fodsteps of MTW, if they want so or not, and MTW had definitly more units.

and we are talking here about crusades. so to come back to my mainthought: the game needs more typical units for both sides, arrabic and western world. if the differnces are not that big (specialy religion) then crusades seem senseless.

[Angryminer]

"and KoH steps in the fodsteps of MTW, if they want so or not" :confused:

Frank Fay already said that they will change the unit list.

Angryminer

[Bora]

Originally posted by Angryminer
"and KoH steps in the fodsteps of MTW, if they want so or not" :confused:

Frank Fay already said that they will change the unit list.

Angryminer

yes i know, but i wrote it cause some things got miss understood.
i think even the thing with the fodsteps. but as we all know the only medieval RTS Game before KoH is MTW. thats why i wrote so. and i think the KoH team know pretty good that KoH will
often be compared with MTW.
but i am also pretty suree taht they also know that they have the chance to make the best medieval RTS game ever and also make KoH one of the best known and often played RTS games ever.
and as more infos and improvement i know from the game as much i have in my mind to buy it and leaf RTW in the shelf.
one reason is that the roman age is almost uninteresting for me. (doesnt matter how good the engine is and looks like)
and the medieval is more intersting for me.
but to be honest: if the programmers of RTW would produce a 2nd MTW with they engine they use for RTW, instead of RTW, i would not even look at KoH,... i think

[Siena]

My point was, that the number of units does not make a game. You can have a tons of units, but if game will be boring - you will not even try them out.
Also, to be interesting game does not necessary need to have tons of different units.

There has to be just enough units to differentiate different regions, factions and fighting methods (archer, spearman, cavalryman, swordsman...)
Of course - more units does not hurt if it does not become too confusing to understand what to use given unit for...
Also, units have certain toy-appeal. You can pick and chose units - which ones you like, which ones you do not. Although their use can be exactly the same.

In the end though - the gameplay makes or brakes the game. Well made game can be interesting with comparatively few units, and also - the tons of units does not automatically make the game, like I said.

On the other hand - to sell well - the game probably needs bunch of different units. It has its important toy-appeal. And it is very important for marketing.

From my game-playing experience - the best games have unpredictable gameplay, where you have to guess, think and make decisions - to gamble - in other words. Where you do not know the outcome with certainty.
:)

[Bora]

topic: crusades :)

[Siena]

Originally posted by Bora
topic: crusades :)

:)
well, not really. The title of the topic is "Crusade", but the topic is about units in first post :) and all others :)

[Bora]

Originally posted by Siena
:)
well, not really. The title of the topic is "Crusade", but the topic is about units in first post :) and all others :)

well, read the very first post and the topic and you know what it is about :rolleyes:

so i wanna come bakc to topic, not like other guys, who start to spam ;)

ok, frank wrote that anotehr religion since the last improvement. i just wonder if it s moslem and if they have the half moon as ico, would be logical. then the crusades can start as we know them. i am not a fan of crusades or tschihads, but they are part of medieval. :cheers:

[Siena]

:) ok, I guess there are two topics in this thread :) and in the first post :)

I am pretty sure that another religion is moslem. There is also an orthodox religion that I understood from other post.
I wonder if there will be native, pagan religions too.

However, there 2 topics in this thread, so comments about units would also be appreciated :cheers:

[Bagpipe]

My suggested religions:
1. Catholicism
2. Islam
3. Orthodoxy
4. Paganism

[Bora]

Originally posted by Bagpipe
My suggested religions:
1. Catholicism
2. Islam
3. Orthodoxy
4. Paganism

yes. CAN be so. but to make crusades work you only need to.
its more realistic to have all the religions who where known in the medieval. but as long as the arrabic nations have something else then christian religion with cross as syxmbol, i am fine :)

[Elewyn]

Originally posted by Bagpipe
My suggested religions:
1. Catholicism
2. Islam
3. Orthodoxy
4. Paganism :cheers:
That's exactly what I suggestes some time ago somewhere else :D

[Frank Fay]

Here you go, these are they :)

[Henrik]

Originally posted by Frank Fay
Here you go, these are they :)

Just so i'll also understand it :blush:

Do you mean that these suggestions to religions by Bagpipe, are these the ones which will be in KoH :confused:

Originally posted by Bagpipe
My suggested religions:
1. Catholicism
2. Islam
3. Orthodoxy
4. Paganism

I'm kinda slow i know that :rolleyes:

[Frank Fay]

yes that is what I meant :)

Happy ?;)

[Bora]

Originally posted by Frank Fay
yes that is what I meant :)

Happy ?;)

only if the symbols also fit to the religion :D

[Henrik]

Originally posted by Frank Fay
yes that is what I meant :)

Happy ?;)

:hello: YES ! :hello:

[shagrath_the_dead]

PAGAN ARMIES ARISE :D

[Bagpipe]

Originally posted by shagrath_the_dead
PAGAN ARMIES ARISE :D

Shagrath, it's not a 3 word game.:D

:cheers:

[Jarlabanke]

:D