Karl Erfurt
24-04-2004, 09:54
Anguille2,
This is a good post. Fortunately, since I am somewhat of a history buff, I already knew about most of the historical background that you mentioned.
I agree that terrorism in general cannot be automatically classified as stupid or ignorant, because it depends on the specific situation. I cited the 9/11 attacks as an example of stupidity because of the particular tactics that the attackers used. Instead of attacking a military target, or using non-violent strategies (such as those used by Mahatma Gandhi in India vs. the British), they chose to attack into the U.S. homeland and kill civilians who had nothing to do with any occupation of the Middle Eastern countries. This was a foolish mistake because it simply made Americans very angry, and made it much easier for the U. S. government to use the attacks as an excuse for more heavy-handed interventionism (such as the current invasion/occupation of Iraq). Therefore, the attackers hurt their own cause because now it will take them even longer to get the U.S., British, etc. out of the Middle Eastern regions.
I think that you may be partially correct in saying that the reasons for 9/11 did not really have to do with Allah, at least not directly. I also do not believe that our "way of life" had anything to do with it. There were political reasons as well, but it is important to remember that religion seems to play a much greater role in the lives of the Arabs than it does for most people in the Western countries. Some of the more radical Islamic sects take the idea of jihad (holy war) very seriously, just the same as many people in Europe viewed religious struggle as a cause for war during the Middle Ages. Regardless of their specific reasons, however, the attackers should have used a different strategy in trying to deal with U.S. or British intervention in the Middle East.
Also, there should not be anything wrong with making longer posts. The longer posts are often more interesting to read, as opposed to the very short posts that are often designed just to increase the person's post count. They also provide more information to the reader and make people think more, which is a good thing because it will help us alleviate the problem of ignorance.
You may believe that american way of life is not the reason, but you can only believe, nothing more. If many Europeans, so members of the West as well, are angry with it, what statement do you think muslims can have?
Religion is much more important for them than for Americans and for many Americans it's far more important than for Europeans. We went through religious wars in 16th and 17th century between conffessions because there was no such power outside. By religion, Arab world is in 15th century, of course with touches of other world which is far more developed in industry and warfate.
Catholics in 17th century feel justified to protect the right belief by weapons and they were strong enought to fight state vs. state (league of states vs another). But muslims now are not powerfull enough (in industry and warfare). They only have money from oil and feeling of necessary protection of their belief. Not ALL muslims, ofcourse. But those who want protect the right belief (which is in many ways desinterpretation of the Koran, like 16th cent.catholicism was far away from words of Jesus and the Bible) want to do it by every way possible. They cannot face the West as equal military partners, so they use another weapon to threaten the West and stop their "cultural/religious" expansion into their homeland. WE may see it as help in economy and living standards, THEY may see it as a way how to destroy the RIGHT way(their). None of this is true, because it is somewhere between. It's an attempt to help them, improve their economy and society, but it goes hand in hand with bringing OUR opinions, OUR ireligious/christian-rationalist way of life, which to the people who are sure they follow the right way must cause desire for protecting it.
Macchiavelli in 16th/17th century said thet the purpouse is more interesting than way how to get it.
Yes, muslim world should learn from us, but we should learn from muslim world as well. At least the situation which is in muslim world and compare it (but ofcourse not too much) with our own history.
PS: SOMETIMES (not in every case) short and brief speach is much better them looooong one repeating always the same. Please, keep in mind, that many peole here are here not to have philosophical disputations, but to have fun. Theyshoiuld respect you and you should respect them.
When I come across such long posts as you do here, I more likely don't want to read it whole. Then, when some interesting replies come, it encourages me to read it whole (like this one), not the case of Frank's and Frujin's posts :)
I found very unlucky to send so long post as the beggining of topic, however it provedit's good topic.
Karl Erfurt
25-04-2004, 01:22
Emhyr var Emreis,
Yes, there are many Americans who do not understand much about the "cultural mentality" of other countries. Unfortunately, ignorance is still a major problem in America, especially in the areas of history, geography, and cultural studies (or what is generally referred to in America as "social studies"). For example, many Americans do not realize that the U.S. goverment actually supported Saddam Hussein in Iraq during the 1980's, nor do they really understand the origins of the conflict in Israel/Palestine. Many Americans seem to be geographically challenged as well. Most high school/college students cannot even locate the 50 states of the U.S. on a map, and they have even more difficulty locating European or Asian countries. It is especially embarrassing when they cannot even locate their own state or city on the map (yes, this sometimes happens!).
Some of the problem with the lack of understanding different cultures has to do with simple ignorance, but I have noticed that in some cases, stubbornness and inflated egos are also contributing factors. Some people seem to believe that our culture is superior to all of the others, so other cultures are essentially irrelevant (from their point of view). Still others seem to subscribe to the "ignorance is bliss" theory. These are people who think that since they are content with their lives as they are now, there is really no need to learn about other countries or cultures. Fortunately, there are still enough people in America (like me :)) who are willing to learn about other countries, cultures, etc. that we can still sustain our civilization overall.
Karl Erfurt
25-04-2004, 11:16
This post is simply for making corrections to various "bugs" that I have found throughout the thread, including spelling/grammar mistakes, historical inaccuracies, etc. It is designed to inform people who may not know about proper English spellings, etc. about the correct spelling of these words. Hopefully, this will make everyone's posts easier to read and understand. Also, by gaining this knowledge, we will reduce the amount of ignorance in America and other parts of the world. :)
__________________________________________________
- Words such as hopeful, peaceful, powerful, etc. that have the suffix -ful are only spelled with one "l" at the end, not two as in the word "full".
- Words that are names of countries, nationalities, religions, languages, or ethnic groups are always capitalized. These are words such as Arabs, Arabic, British, Islam, English, Czech, etc.
- "first off" = first of all
- "controll" = control
- "unprecise" = imprecise
- "sbdy" = somebody
- "sth" = something
- "braveness" = bravery
- "schocked" = shocked
- "fanatism" = fanaticism
- "Irak" = Iraq
- "who's" = whose
- "speach" = speech
- "desinterpretation" = misinterpretation
- "disputations" = disputes
- "divide to rule" = divide and conquer
- "historician" = historian
- "citates" = cities and states
- "south-american" = South American
- "she were" = she was
- Machiavelli actually lived in the 15th/16th century (1469-1527). The idea that he is famous for is "The ends justify the means".
Disclaimer: This post is for informational purposes only. It is not intended to be a personal criticism of any particular poster.
oh. Yes. I don't know it in english. I know the czech way and I'm not so well educated to learn all famous citates in czech and english :)
And I do't think that it's so important when Macchiavelli lived, the main point were his words. (I as historician feel embarassed that I moved his life 100!!! years lated, normally I do it by less then 50 :))
I think you noticed that this thread is international, so most of us are not natural english speakers so to use only me as example, very often I fight with meanings of words so some little mistakes (if don't change the meaning) are not so important HERE.
To your last post. I like that you want to learn more about other countries. I know it's embarassing to be unable to find my own home town, but why not if it's not important.
However the geography is the thing Europeans blame Americns very often. But, to stay as objective as possible, how many Europeans know the right location of American states (not only in USA, but in whole Ameriva, especially central, the same with Africa. Sometimes it seems to me thet Europeans want everybody to know where European states are, but many times they don't know where their partner is from. Why should everybody know where Czech rep./Croatia/Lichtenstein/Moldova/Belgium is?
They should know at least it's in Europe, better if know central, western or eastern, but Europeans should know the same to about american/asian/african states!!
I hope my opinion is clear.
(sorry for long post)
It's little different to LEARN AT SCHOOL and REALLY KNOW.
Here in Czech republic we learn it too. But if you ask ordinary German or Czech, I doubt he'll be able to tell you where f.e. Honduras or Burundi are.
But yes, I am almost sure that hey will know almost all european states, some middle eastern, some asian and some US and American.
One "joke". One girl in my high school class(yes, she were very silly and left the school after 2years) wrote to a test that London is in USA :D
Karl Erfurt
26-04-2004, 03:19
In addition to the problem of ignorance about areas such as history and geography, many American politicians combine ignorance and stupidity (and probably some other dubious qualities as well) to create lots of silly laws that either do not make much sense or are not really practical to enforce. Otto von Bismarck once said, “Laws are like sausages. It is better not to see them made.” Judging by the sheer number of silly laws that we have in this country, he may be right. Some of these laws are also listed on the dumblaws.com site, which can be found here:
http://dumblaws.com
Many of these laws represent attempts to regulate some of the most trivial behaviors, including those that are not likely to happen anyway. I know that the list seems rather long, but many of these laws are very funny, so I wanted to get them all posted so that everyone can read them.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
· In Atlanta, Georgia, it is illegal to tie a giraffe to a telephone pole.
· In San Francisco, it is illegal to pile horse manure more than six feet high on a street corner. (But if it’s only five feet high, that’s OK.)
· Also in San Francisco, it is a crime to clean your car with used underwear.
· Yet another San Francisco law makes it illegal for elephants to walk down Market Street unless they are on a leash.
· In McLough, Kansas, it is illegal to wash your false teeth in a public drinking fountain.
· In Bexley, Ohio, it is illegal to install slot machines in an outhouse.
· In Salt Lake County, Utah, it is illegal to walk down the street while carrying a violin in a paper bag.
· In New York, it is illegal to knit while serving on jury duty.
· In Hawaii, it is illegal to insert pennies into your ears.
· In Champaign, Illinois, it is illegal to urinate into a neighbor’s mouth. (Apparently, they don’t want to give new meaning to “A Taste of Champaign”)
· In Trout Creek, Utah, it is a crime for a pharmacist to sell gunpowder to cure headaches. (However, it is still legal to sell aspirin to fire a gun.)
· In Florida, it is specifically against the law to have sexual relations with a porcupine.
· In Willodale, Oregon, it is illegal for a husband to “talk dirty” during sex. (But I guess it’s OK for wives…)
· In Newcastle, Wyoming, it is illegal to have sex while standing in a store’s walk-in meat freezer.
· In Bozeman, Montana, there is a law that bans all sexual activity that occurs in the front yard of a home after sundown. (Hmmm, I guess this means that we are supposed to have more sex in the daytime.)
· In Liberty Corner, New Jersey, couples can actually go to jail if they accidentally sound the horn while having sex in a car. (This seems to be designed to cut down on excessive horn-iness.)
· In Tremonton, Utah, it is a misdemeanor to have sex while riding in an ambulance.
· In Iowa, it is a crime for a kiss to last more than five minutes.
· In Los Angeles, it is a crime for dogs to mate within 500 feet of a church. (Yes, you read that right- it says DOGS, not people.)
· The California legislature has made it illegal for ANY animal to mate within 1,500 feet of a church, school, or tavern.
· In Fairbanks, Alaska, it is illegal for two moose to have sex on city sidewalks. (However, it is still legal for three or more moose to do it, so they can still enjoy group sex even if they are on the sidewalk.)
· In Meadville, New Jersey, it is illegal to offer cigarettes or whiskey to animals at the local zoo.
· In Zion, Illinois, it is illegal to give a lighted cigar to a dog, cat, or other domesticated animal.
· In Chicago, it is illegal to give whiskey to a dog.
· In Oklahoma, it is a crime to get a fish drunk.
· In Natchez, Missouri, it is illegal to give beer or other intoxicants to an elephant.
· In Palm Springs, California, it is illegal to walk a camel down Palm Canyon Drive between 4:00 p.m. and 6:00 p.m.
· In North Carolina, it is illegal to plow your cotton fields with an elephant. (Oh darn, I have always wanted to see somebody do that…)
· In Oklahoma, you can be arrested for making ugly faces at a dog.
· In Texas, it is illegal to put graffiti on someone else’s cow.
· In Excelsior Springs, Missouri, it is illegal to “worry” a squirrel.
· In Hayden, Arkansas, it is a crime to bother bullfrogs.
· In Alabama, it is against the law to try to teach a bear to wrestle.
· In Galesburg, Illinois, there is a $1,000 fine for killing rats with a baseball bat. (But you can still use rat poison.)
· In Pacific Grove, California, there is a $500 fine for molesting butterflies.
· In Newark, New Jersey, it is illegal to buy ice cream after 6:00 p.m. unless you have a note from your doctor.
· In Kentucky, it is illegal to carry ice cream in your back pocket.
· In Carmel, California, is WAS illegal to eat ice cream on the sidewalk, but Clint Eastwood managed to get this law repealed after he became mayor of the town.
· Eating ice cream on the sidewalk is still a crime in Lexington, Kentucky.
· In Memphis, Tennessee, it is illegal to take an unfinished slice of pie home from a diner.
· In Oklahoma, it is illegal to take a bite out of someone else’s hamburger. (This is known as the “Hamburgler Law”.)
· In Ocean City, New Jersey, it is illegal to slurp your soup in a restaurant.
· In Arizona, it is illegal for bathtubs to be used as a sleeping place for donkeys.
· In Arkansas, it is illegal for bathtubs to be used a storage place for alligators.
· In Baldwin Park, California, it is illegal to ride a bicycle in a swimming pool.
· In West Virginia, it is a crime to whistle underwater.
· In Logan, Utah, it is illegal for women to use “swear words”.
· In Long Beach, California, cursing is banned, but only on miniature golf courses.
· In Texas, it is a crime to curse in front of dead people.
· In Burlingame, California, it is illegal to spit anywhere, except on a baseball diamond. (This makes you safe from the state’s “three strikes” law.)
· In Santa Monica, California, it is illegal to play percussion instruments on the beach.
· In Salt Lake County, Utah, it is illegal for a trombonist to advertise at a public auction.
· In Cicero, Illinois, it is even a crime to hum- but only on Sundays.
· In Utah, it is a crime to catch fish from horseback.
· In Kansas, it is illegal to catch fish with your bare hands.
· In Tennessee, it is illegal to use a lasso to catch a fish.
· In Chicago, it is illegal to catch fish while sitting on a giraffe’s neck.
· In Tucson, Arizona and Sidney, Illinois, it is illegal for women to wear pants.
· In Merryville, Missouri, it is a crime for a woman to wear a corset.
· Meanwhile, in Norfolk, Virginia it is illegal for a woman to appear in public without a corset.
· In Cleveland, Ohio, women are banned from wearing leather shoes.
· In El Paso, Texas, it is illegal for a woman to wear a “lewd dress” in public. (Naturally, they do not define exactly what a “lewd dress” is.)
· In Carmel, New York, it is illegal for men to wear trousers and pants that do not match.
· In Blythe, California, it is illegal for men to wear cowboy boots unless they own at least two head of cattle.
· In Nogales, Arizona, it is illegal for men to wear suspenders. (You can uphold the law, but not your trousers.)
· In Houston, Texas, it is illegal to sell Limburger cheese on a Sunday.
· In Port Arthur, Texas, it is against the law to emit “obnoxious odors” in an elevator.
· In Alexandria, Minnesota, it is illegal for a man to have sex with his wife if he smells like onions or sardines.
· In Gary, Indiana, it is a crime to get on a streetcar within four hours of eating garlic.
· In Evanston, Illinois, bowling has been banned.
· In Purdy, Missouri, dancing has been banned.
· In Sidney, Illinois, kite flying has been banned.
· In Washington state, lollipops have been banned. (The Lollipop Guild voiced strong opposition to this.)
· In Lodi, California, Silly String has been banned.
· In Acworth, Georgia, every citizen is required to own a rake.
· In Joliet, Illinois, there is a $5 fine for mispronouncing the name of the town. (It is pronounced Joe-lee-ETTE, not Jolly-ETTE.)
· By federal statute, it is illegal anywhere in the United States to give a false weather report.
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