what do you fear

[the knightly sword]

to fear those how fear!!!

[Redback]

Growing too old to use a Computer

[Dobber]

@the knightly sword

I posted "I fear those who have no fear!" meaning I do not want to run upon someone who has no fear because there is no telling what they might do. It is most difficult to defeat a man(who has no fear) in battle. A man who is not afraid to die is highly unpredictable.

[Drake Maethor]

Originally posted by Teutonic_Knight
The using of Lucifer to describe Satan or the Devil is kind of an oxy-moron in my belief. Why, Because God is Lucifer if you look at what the original translation of the Old Testament. Lucifer means first light or morning star according to the First testament which is exactly what God/Jesus is.

As far as how can angels be “bad” considering they are pure is simple. Angels, like man, were created by God and have their own personalities and are not mindless drones that do as they are told. Some Angels do and will fall from grace but unlike man they were made into grace where as we have to gain grace.

And that is exactly what happened with Lucifer.
He was the FIRST among the ANGELS. Does the name "First Light" make sense now?. He was the greatest of them all, but them he revolted.
By the way did you ever read "The Silmarillion" by JRR Tolkien? Do you know the story of Morgoth, once called Melkor? ;)

@Dobber
There are three Arch Angels:
Raphael, Gabriel and Michael.
Michael means "Who is like God?" or "Nobody is like God" and he is the Commander of the Celestial armies.
Gabriel means "God is my protector" and as you say he is the Messenger of God. He announced to Mary the Incarnation of the Son of God.
And Raphael means "Medicine of God". And he is like Heaven's Chief Physician :D

[Dobber]

@Drake Maethor, I beg to differ concerning Archangel(s). The Bible only mentions the Archangel twice, once in Jude verse 9, [But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses,], notice it says "the archangel Michael" and the other reference is in 1 Thessalonians 4:16, [For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.], notice here it also says "the archangel".

On to Gabriel, in Luke 1:19 , [The angel answered, "I am Gabriel. I stand in the presence of God, and I have been sent to speak to you and to tell you this good news.], notice it says "the angel(Gabriel)" and Luke 1:26, [In the sixth month, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee,], notice here also "the angel Gabriel"

Now to your Raphael, there is no mention in the Bible of an angel named Raphael. However an internet search on Raphael does turn up a Raphael who painted a picture he entitled "The Archangel"


Also the term Archangel signifies "chief messenger" and there can be only one chief messenger, and who other than Michael "Who is like God"!

[Drake Maethor]

Allright!
Let's ask the Pope! :D

Catechesis on the Holy Angels by Pope John Paul II, given at 6 General Audiences from 9 July to 20 August 1986.
(http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2ANGEL.HTM)
:cool:

I extract the part that speaks of the three Archangels:


The first is Michael the Archangel (cf. Dan. 10:13-20; Rev. 12:7; Jude 9). His name is a synthesis that expresses the essential attitude of the good spirits. "Mica-EL" in fact means: "Who is like God?" In this name, therefore, we find expressed the salvific choice thanks to which the angels "see the face of the Father" who is in Heaven.

The second is Gabriel: a figure bound especially to the mystery of the Incarnation of the Son of God (cf. Lk 1:19-26). His name means: "my power is God" or "power of God," as if to say that the culmination of creation, the Incarnation is the supreme sign of the omnipotent Father.

Finally, the third archangel is called Raphael. "Rafa-EL" means: "God heals." He is made known to us by the story of Tobias in the Old Testament (cf. Tob. 12:15-20), etc.). which is so significant for what it says about entrusting to the angels the little children of God, who are always in need of custody, care, and protection.

If you read you'll see that your Sanctity calls Michael as you do: "Michael the Archangel".
However see that he refers to Raphael as "the third archangel". So you can assume that Michael, Gabriel and Raphael are archangels all three, at least to the Catholics.
Michael is called "The Archangel" because he is the first and maybe the most important of them. But that doens't mean he is the only one. ;)

Also you got this page that gives you the "Saint of the Day" of the Catholic credum:

Saint of the Day (September 29) (http://www.americancatholic.org/Features/SaintOfDay/default.asp?id=1153)

If you read you'll find out that September 29 is the festivity of St Michael, St Gabriel and St Raphael.

There you'll find this text:

Each of these archangels performs a different mission in Scripture: Michael protects; Gabriel announces; Raphael guides. Earlier belief that inexplicable events were due to the actions of spiritual beings has given way to a scientific world-view and a different sense of cause and effect. Yet believers still experience God's protection, communication and guidance in ways which defy description. We cannot dismiss angels too lightly.

You can see that the three mentioned angels are again considered archangels.

Also if you like, you can try a new Internet search, this one for example: Google Search: +michael +gabriel +raphael +archangels (http://www.google.com.ar/search?hl=es&ie=UTF-8&q=%2Bmichael+%2Bgabriel+%2Braphael+%2Barchangels&btnG=B%C3%BAsqueda&meta=)

You'll find that there a lot of pages that speak of the three Archangels. Try!
(Btw, forgive the Spanish at the Google web :D)

Finally, out of this topic, I would like to remark something that I find very interesting:
For Michael's name translation you've written "Who is like God", however I've found "Who is like God?" with a question mark (look for example in the Pope's translation). And that is a big difference. You say that Michael defeated Lucifer (I don't know if he already has defeated him or if he will defeat him). And remember that Lucifer, full of pride, wanted to be God. So, look how appropiate is for Michael, the Defeater of Lucifer, to be called like that. It is like if he is saying at Lucifer's face: "Who is like God? Nobody is like him!".

[Dobber]

If Gabriel is an archangel then why did the scripture referenca you and I both listed not say "the archangel Gabriel", but instead said "the angel Gabriel"?
The reference you have listed for Raphael is only in the Catholic Bible. The protestant faith does not recognize that as inspired writing from God. I respect your stance and belief in three arch angels, but I cannot change my belief that there is only one based on what you have shown. The Pope is not the final authority on matters of God. To a Catholic he may be, but not to a protestant. I respect the Pope, but I do not believe he has more favor with God than I or any other believer. The ground is level at the foot of the cross, no man stands higher than any other.

[Drake Maethor]

Originally posted by Dobber
If Gabriel is an archangel then why did the scripture referenca you and I both listed not say "the archangel Gabriel", but instead said "the angel Gabriel"?
The reference you have listed for Raphael is only in the Catholic Bible. The protestant faith does not recognize that as inspired writing from God. I respect your stance and belief in three arch angels, but I cannot change my belief that there is only one based on what you have shown. The Pope is not the final authority on matters of God. To a Catholic he may be, but not to a protestant. I respect the Pope, but I do not believe he has more favor with God than I or any other believer. The ground is level at the foot of the cross, no man stands higher than any other.

I also respect your stance and beliefs, and realize that I've written "at least to the catholics" when talking about the three archangels, so since the beginning I was considering that there are other beliefs. I've found for example in a page someone talking about the Archangel Uriel, supposedly the one with fhe Fiery Sword at the Gates of the of Garden of Eden.
Now to your question, if the Bible (Protestant or Catholic) calls St Michael as "Michael the Archangel" but in any place it says that he is the only one, the only Archangel, then why we should consider him as the only Archangel? Think a while for a moment. Is there any proof to consider him as the ONLY? The Bible for example affirms that God is the only god. But there is no place where it says that Michael is the only Archangel.
So I also can't change my belief! :)
Also as a christian person you would admit with me that Gabriel is one of the most important angels, he was honored with the announcement of the most important message to humankind. I think that is a good reason to at least doubt if he isn't an Archangel.
Finnally may I tell you that we catholics are not the only ones believing in more than one archangel. Our big brothers the jewes also belief in more than one:

For example here it talks about a jewish prayer
http://www.freewebs.com/jewishangels/prayer.htm

There isn't the prayer, and excuse me for not looking for it, but I haven't got the time. However that example can show you that the jewes believe in more than one archangel and we the catholics are not the only ones.
However I must state, following the same line of deductive reasoning that I've made before, that I don't know if all the jewes believe in many archangels, but that proof that at least some do believe in more than one.

And for the Pope. You seem to believe that we catholics consider him as a favored one... Well rest assure that we believe that "all men are equal in the eyes of God". I've quoted him because as The Head of Church, he is one of the wisest in this matters. And what best example than him to show you the catholic belief in more than one archangel.

About the jewish belief.
I've recently found this at www.Torah.org http://www.torah.org/learning/ramchal/classes/wog2-4-89.html
Which I consider a better proof than the previous of the jewish belief in more than one archangel.
There you can find this very interesting though about Archangels:
We're taught that G-d interacts with other peoples through the agency of their appointed archangel, as each of the seventy core nations of the world has a particular archangel overseeing its perpetuation and well-being.
For this jewish guy at Torah.org there are 7 archangels, one for each of the 7 choruses. BTW I don't know if you believe in the angellic choruses and that is not part of this discussion. But you can see that there are a lot of people believing in more than one archangel and considering Gabriel as one of them.

Anyway, the most important statements of this post are these ones:
First: There is no proof to consider Michael as the only archangel.
That in the Bible he is considered as "Michael the archangel" only proofs that he is an archangel but not the only one.
Second: There is a good reason to at least doubt if Gabriel isn't an archangel: The Annunciation.

[Dobber]

Back on topic of "what do you fear?"

I fear my wife's voice at 3:00 AM when I am still sitting in front of computer!:D

So if anyone is ever exchanging messages with me in the wee hours of the morning and suddenly I'm gone, that voice has said "STEPHEN" followed by "It is time to get off the computer!"

[Lord Joepie]

I fear the police when I'm driving...

Speeding has become a habbit.8)

I´m the king of the road... vrrrrrrroooaaaaaaaaammmmmmm :king:

[HappyAdolf]

@Heretic:
I fear spiders, too, but it's not a foolish fear! This fear comes from the stone age, when the world was populated by poisonous and dangerous spiders, and so the people feared them. And they are ugly. Ewww:D

[HappyAdolf]

Fear of spiders is my only fear. I#m afraid of nuthin, not even of dying. My opinion is: If you fight a good battle and die in honor it is better than if you flee like a coward, because if you die in honor for your motherland you'll be a hero.

[HappyAdolf]

I fear my Latin-teacher:D

[d'Honaire]

@dobber There is no need to fear a man who has no fear, because he can be felled like any other. Also, yes, he may be unpredictable, but it is knowing yourself that will help you prevail in the face of adversity.

My fears...being immolated and letting my Marines down.:cheers:

[d'Honaire]

@Dobber Don't fear your wife at 3 AM, unless the computer is in your bedroom, which is why I moved into a three-bedroom house and my computer room is on the other end of the house from my bedroom, because my wife does the same thing.:cheers:

[HappyAdolf]

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :lol: :lol: :lol: