How doe's it become that a swordsman is stronger against spearman

[Angryminer]

Sir Turylon:
Please note that it is much easier to get your hands on good iron today. Back in those days the process of crafting such an armor was far more dangerous and many of the crafted parts had to be melted down again because they didn't fit.
In those days the technique was much worse than today, because there was no school system back then.

Angryminer

[Henrik]

Originally posted by Angryminer
Sir Turylon:
Please note that it is much easier to get your hands on good iron today. Back in those days the process of crafting such an armor was far more dangerous and many of the crafted parts had to be melted down again because they didn't fit.
In those days the technique was much worse than today, because there was no school system back then.

Angryminer

I'll agree, as far as i know, production of quality steel is a fairly new technology it's on around a houndred years old !

[Sir Turylon]

ah-hem.
yes, I know... It was meant in a bit of a satyrical manner.

Production of steel was a bit more complex back then, for sure. It's amazing to think how those smiths were able to create such wonderful pieces of destruction and mayhem.

Steel, in reality, wasn't seen until what? 1500s? Ancient China did have steelworks though, IIRC. THey used bellows to blow oxygen into the molten steel molds while it was being poured.

Quite amazing how it is made.

[Redback]

On the Topic of Swordsmen vs Spearman:p

Spearmen were effective as formations on clear flat terrain,and were employed as shock troops or on static defense.
Placed in a situation where they couldn't manuver or were made to manuver in rough ground they lost their effectiveness.

Swordsmen are more flexible in most terrain and don't depend on being in a formation. :)

example-The Battle of Pydna 168 BC Rome vs Macedonia;)
just my 2 cents:cheers:
Have a Great Day:cheers: :cheers:

[Sir Turylon]

Correct me, if I'm wrong.. but shock troops in middle ages were all swordmen or axemen. (since it is easier to run while holding an axe or sword than a spear)


try to keep in mind... KoH is based centuries after end of Roman Empire.

[Drake Maethor]

I wonder...
What would happen if an squad of the best Roman legionaries fights vs a squad of the best French chevaliers?

Would the Roman tight formation and strong armour withstand the dangerous chargue of the knights? Would the knights pierce the Roman formation?
The Romans had very good armours and tactics, the best infantry of their time, but the legions dissapeared in the Middle Ages... But what if they'd fight against the heaviest of the Middle Ages cavalries?

[Elewyn]

Imagine you stand aggainst tight formation of knights in charge. You have one javelin, short sword-Gladius, big shield and good roman plate armour. You can throw your javelin and if have luck, hit one of chevalliers. and then they will smash you with all your friends in your formation. You would need long pikes to stop them (some of them).

[Redback]

Originally posted by Sir Turylon
Correct me, if I'm wrong.. but shock troops in middle ages were all swordmen or axemen. (since it is easier to run while holding an axe or sword than a spear)


try to keep in mind... KoH is based centuries after end of Roman Empire.

The theory applies to any period,swordsmen are always more flexible then spearmen.:)

Pikemen were also used after the ancient period{including Middle ages},as shock troops.:)
Have a Nice Day:)

[Hector]

Originally posted by Drake Maethor
I wonder...
What would happen if an squad of the best Roman legionaries fights vs a squad of the best French chevaliers?

Would the Roman tight formation and strong armour withstand the dangerous chargue of the knights? Would the knights pierce the Roman formation?
The Romans had very good armours and tactics, the best infantry of their time, but the legions dissapeared in the Middle Ages... But what if they'd fight against the heaviest of the Middle Ages cavalries?

Romans would have been toasted:p

[Henrik]

@Hector - i'll agree, i also think that the outcome would be a clear victory to the knights.

IMO, the only effective defencs against a knight charging on a horse is a long spear.

[Hector]

Originally posted by Henrik
@Hector - i'll agree, i also think that the outcome would be a clear victory to the knights.

IMO, the only effective defencs against a knight charging on a horse is a long spear.

yep but later on there were feudal knights what carried spears theirself hmm who would have won do you think the pikemans or spearmans versus feudal knights who carries spears what u can see at the unitshowcase

[HappyAdolf]

I think the pikes are good 'gainst horsemen, because the horses fear the pikes and they run into them in full charge.

[Jarlabanke]

I'd just like to correct something I read earlier in this thread. Steel was around way before the 1500's, the vikings had it for example. Getting your hands on a good quality pattern welded sword like the ones made by french smiths in the 700-900's is not only going to be hard (smiths that do pattern welding are rare in europe, I'd suspect they're more common in Japan though) but it'll cost you something like 2000+ €.

[HappyAdolf]

Hmmm.... right you are. But if you fight good enough you can kill somebody equipped with such a sword and take it;)

[Henrik]

Originally posted by Jarlabanke
I'd just like to correct something I read earlier in this thread. Steel was around way before the 1500's, the vikings had it for example. Getting your hands on a good quality pattern welded sword like the ones made by french smiths in the 700-900's is not only going to be hard (smiths that do pattern welding are rare in europe, I'd suspect they're more common in Japan though) but it'll cost you something like 2000+ €.

yes, but not high grade steel - the technology to make high grade steel in vast quantities was something which first was invented in the 20th. century - so a blacksmith may have had some knowledge on how make a sword of quality steel, but i don't think they had the knowledge to make it perfect everytime ! - if the look at the sword a samurai uses ( these swords is regarded as the best swords ever made ) a japanese weapon blacksmith would test his finished swords on a stack of corpses ( i'm told it was 4 - 5 corpses stacked on top of eachother ) if the finished sword wasen't able to hack through atleast 3 of them in one blow or it bended during the test, then the blacksmith would just discard the sword - this tells me that even these fine weapon craftsmen wasn't always able to get it right either.

[Sir Turylon]

@jarlabanke

True.. steel is really just a term used to describe how refined iron ore is.


Pikemen are not spearmen. :) Spears are much shorter than those things you might have seen in Braveheart. a typical spear would only be what? 6 feet to 7 feet tall?

Line up a dozen men armed with 6 feet spears.
Line up a dozen knights with 10 foot lances and armor plating on the horses...

Hmm... yeah. :)

Spears were mainly used in rigid defense lines. (it is really hard to weild one in narrow spaces)

Spearmen would stand and try to dismount the knights by first killing the horse. If somebody got by, they'd jab at the mounted knight.

That famous charge scene in Braveheart... those "spears" were really shaped tree trunks that the scotts braced into the ground to create an artificial "hedge row."

@Henrik.

the katanas were not made from steel in the sense other steel weapons were made. The process was called rolled homogenous steel production. The smiths would continuosly roll (fold) the steel on top of itself. gradually thining it to the thickness of the blade. This process would take months of hard labor. (some forms of tank armor are created in the same method. For instance, during the 1960s, most Soviet tank design and American designs used rolled homogenous steel as their protection)

[Henrik]

Originally posted by Sir Turylon
[B@Henrik.

the katanas were not made from steel in the sense other steel weapons were made. The process was called rolled homogenous steel production. The smiths would continuosly roll (fold) the steel on top of itself. gradually thining it to the thickness of the blade. This process would take months of hard labor. (some forms of tank armor are created in the same method. For instance, during the 1960s, most Soviet tank design and American designs used rolled homogenous steel as their protection) [/B]

A samurai's sword is actually made from two kinds of steel ! - this also why it has this curved shape - the sword will actually first curve the last time it cooled down - as far as i remember the steel in the core of the sword is soft, which makes the sword very flexible i.e so it's able to bend a little without breaking.

[Sir Turylon]

Originally posted by Henrik
A samurai's sword is actually made from two kinds of steel ! - this also why it has this curved shape - the sword will actually first curve the last time it cooled down - as far as i remember the steel in the core of the sword is soft, which makes the sword very flexible i.e so it's able to bend a little without breaking.

aye.

they formed a central "shaft" running from hilt to tip. then they would roll and pount the stronger steel on top.

it's quite fascinating workmanship to see done.

[Jarlabanke]

What they did in Japan they did here too, patternwelding, I actually remember being told they started with it in Europe before they did it in Japan. They stopped with it in europe after a while as they with time got the ability to produce steel of higher quality and thus didn't have to resort to all the folding, in Japan however (I can't remember if it's the actual iron ore that's inferior to that which can be found in europe or if it's something else) they never got that kind of high quality steel and had to continue with the folding, which is why they with time reached such "perfection" when it came to folding it. A good european sword bends pretty much as good as a good japanese, probably more.

[Angryminer]

@Jarlabanke
In Japan there is nearly no iron ore.
That's the reason why they had to craft good swords from the rare iron.
In Europe you could affort to mass-produce swords. There they had enough iron to even craft platearmors.
In Japan an extremely seldom sight.

Angryminer