View Full Version : [EN]Guess the city - languages problem
I haven't visited "my" Guess the city thread for a while and what has happened? It was just a game, but there were 2 people who couldn't respect others, one didn't respect it's language, the other the fact that he wouldn't understand somethig there
Due to release of ANNO 1701 the forum became German in majority. Most of use older members have joined it as english or mostly english forum. We were used to fact that we can use international language and those who can't speak it keep limited in their-languages-closed threads. It has changed now and I'm not happy of that
I know that due to changed ballance of this forum my opinion isn't legitime anymore. But English is an INTERNATIONAL language that enables many people from very large number of countries participate, it is not only official but mostly (!!) also a language of use in most of places where people from diferent countries meet. German on the other side enables communication with people in just 3 countries. English is first language (or first foreign) in almost all schools in our Western world and in numerous countries of other cultures, German is not even first language in countries bordering to Germany.
I always thought this forum is international. International language of internet is English. I also crossed the "language border" of German parts of forum (or German flagged threads), when I did it I mostly at least tried to state at least something in German (Though I can't speak a word of it) and APOLOGISED for it.
So I suppose if you want to join an international discussion you have to be somehow prepared for it, not to enter it with your diferent language and expect all to speak in your language. I don't have respect for German-only speakers who enter international English-speaking thread and start speaking German there with no apolochise, no attempt to respect it's rules. I don't have respect for them as I don't have such respect for French, Czechs or Arabs doing this.
If a German-speaking thread is turned to English it opens for more people, if English speaking thread turns into Gernan, it opens for several Germans and closes for all others. I see big diference here.
But in this forum we who can't speak German are becoming minority. Yes, I am depressed by the changed situation, I don't feel here as good as I used to because I don't understand over half of this forum now, though I can speak 4-5 languages enough to comunicate basicaly and another 1-2 I learn. I respect it but the result is that I like it less and less because I feel as unwelcome stranger, though I learn and speak more languages than most of us here. So finaly I rarely visit other than "narrow KoH english forum".
Most of announced "bi-lingual" threads cease to be bi-lingual after several posts in German only what disables me to enter them thuogh I'd like to. I can't. Translating all posts is annoying and I don't want English-and-German speakers to translate them all. It's sad, I'm sorry but I have to state myself. I loved it here... but now I'm stranger. My fault, I picked bad languages for this forum
Those two people you speak of are not posting in that thread anymore, in fact I haven't seen either one in a few days.
Angryminer
10-04-2007, 19:01
It's good you voiced your opinion. :go:
Without trying to justify this new movement, which I dislike too, I'd like to add that the number of germans who can't participate in english threads is now equal or bigger than the number of users who can't participate in german threads. That is surely one of the causes for some users to feel for german as the more appropiate language.
I hope a few of us will take it as an opportunity to remind our users to respect the language-flags. I don't participate in many threads anymore, but in those where I do I always try to keep the languages sorted.
Interestingly I mostly participate in english threads these days. :smile:
Angryminer
I am surely aware of the fact that number of non-English speaking Germans outnumbers the number of "Internationals" speaking English but not German.
That's also the reason why I respect it and don't try to fight the reality.
I originaly wanted to say it in the "Guess the city" thread but then realized it would be useless for several reasons:
1) the game goes on and I don't want to break it again
2) one of those I wrote this for doesn't participate there anymore
I'm just describing my feelings on this lately so great forum. Many things have changed and many of those changes I liked. But I don't like the fact that the forum turns to be more and more just-uni-lingual-German, except for several threads/forum sections which remain English..
I don't really like the idea that I am going to suggest, but maybe division of Off-Topic forums to English and German could be the solution?
Then users who don't speak German won't resign to post there at all (just like I do, I don't bother to check new threads even if they are announced to be bilingual because they turn to be German only after several posts so I don'ť understand a word there)
There are just 2-3 exceptions of this process...
FrankishHero
10-04-2007, 19:54
Basically you made the point I was making, except in a lot more words and a lot more clear. It's good to see there's still some of the original posters around that realize what the forum is becoming.
On the other hand, I don't feel this thread was necessary more than a week after the problems happened. A 'solution' has been reached and while I'm not happy that 'X' stopped playing because I fell out with her, it's her own decision.
I think we'd best move on.
On the other hand, I don't feel this thread was necessary more than a week after the problems happened. A 'solution' has been reached and while I'm not happy that 'X' stopped playing because I fell out with her, it's her own decision.
I didn't notice it and I just wanted to express my point, wanted to defend you and enable Catt to understand us a bit more hopefully.
I don't like the solution at all (yes, from egoistic reasons that "my thread" ended up like this) but at the same time I assume it is the best possible compromise...
Excali has suggested deleting his contributions that started the language discussion and also to delete all the discussion so as to not cause problems to someone reading it at a later date(and according to him even a year and a half from now). I have Pm'ed those involved and have heard back from all but one, and they thus far are all in agreement to the discussion being deleted. I also have asked them if they thought a sticky post with an explanation(in English and in German) of the flag sytem and a request that people honor the system. All have though that would be a good idea! I could do the English, but someone would need to translate it. Angryminer could possibly do them both maybe, or I could do it in English and then Angryminer could translate it to German, even by editing my post so that it would all be in one post.
I'm not sure if it has some sense to change the situation of the thread... let them live their own lives - both "Guess the City" and " Guess the Place / Rate den Ort - International"
I think the suggested solution for the language problem/confussion might work.
If it won't work (the flags system woul't be respected) I see no other solution than dividing off topic forums into German and English section
Whatever happens I'm ready to respect Germanisation of the Forum...
--
hi, Catt. I don't understand what's going on.
Have this thread touched your personal feelings or what?
I just didn't visit the thread where the problem appeared. It wasn't the first time. I just expressed my feelings as you did in the other thread. I am interested in your opinion and this thread was opened exactly to discuss it with you because I think that calling Frankish to be rude because he wanted a discussion in international and not only local language was a bit unfair.
The problem was solved in the one particular thread, but not in the forum (at least we can see it from your reaction that you decided not to post here though you seem to have things to say to the topic). The topic was started and somehow solved, but I still had something to say to it, I'm sorry that I wasn't allowed to continue in this "emotional or what" topic.
I wanted to discuss it, I would like the forum to be "comfortable" for all (including those who can't speak German), that's why I opened discussion to solve it. If there is no will on the other side I can just continue in what I was doing last several months when the of-topic forum were and are more and more German only.
Finaly it seems to be just my personal problem so I personaly subordinate to the majority, I can't speak German so I can't participate here. Sorry my fault .. Goodbye
--
Catt, sorry to quote from a PM. If you don't like it, please tell me and I will delete it
I understand your feelings about the "Germanisation", but I DO wonder how many English threads you have had before. I mean the people from the old forum still seem to be around and the German crowd rather seems to be an addition than a limitation. But then I am still fairly new here.
The problem is - even if a thread is started in English, it is lost in the crowd of German threads and if it is bi-lingual it turns to exclusively German even before I can say a word to that topic. And how can I know where the discussion has moved?
The others wh can't speak German seem to do the same, so English is dying here. I wanted to point it out because I don't like it. Nothing more I can do
RoadRunner
11-04-2007, 00:59
Well, you see... Excali has exactly the same problem as you have: he does not speak your language as you do not speak his one. Does that mean that one of you should be excluded from any discussion, that you should not communicate with each other?
I really do not think that dividing this section into "theirs" and "ours" would make sense. I even have to admit that since the 1701 board is divided into the English and the German ones, I really seldom look into the English part...
Yes, this is an international board. Yes, there will be communication problems, and in fact we have them as you stated yourselves. But do you really think that separation will solve this problem? I do not. I see the difficulties for you and for other people (German or English speakers), but I am also convinced that we can learn to live with that. In fact, we have to: Otherwise, the English part will dry out (due to the "Germanisation") and will become unattractive for new members.
Those automatic translaters do a wonderful job: they may translate things from languages you would never understand. What is the problem in asking to stick to English if you feel uncomfortable in reading (or ignoring) German replies? As you noticed, that request was respected.
Maybe we should have another view on that issue: There are German users who want to participate in an English game or discussion. What's wrong about that? And what would be wrong about learning to communicate using two languages? - We have a unique situation here, with English and German speaking members favourizing the same board, the same games. It might be difficult, but we should establish an international culture here, and not English or German ghettos.
FrankishHero
11-04-2007, 01:05
Well, you see... Excali has exactly the same problem as you have: he does not speak your language as you do not speak his one. Does that mean that one of you should be excluded from any discussion, that you should not communicate with each other?
That is irrelevant. In an English flagged thread, there should be only English discussion. That's the idea behind the flags.
There are German users who want to participate in an English game or discussion. What's wrong about that?
Nothing is wrong. But they can translate their post into English FIRST, so that there is no confusion. All they do now is stir up unnecessary aggrevation.
Angryminer
11-04-2007, 01:10
@RoadRunner:
It used to work very well. The early community was forged by the will of people from all over the world trying to communicate. Most of us were pretty bad at english until we practiced on these boards.
But now the situation has changed because there are so many germans that some users don't see it as necessary to use their english-skills anymore.
I don't think "Learn german or snuff it" is the right approach. Most users here had to learn english to participate. Asking for more isn't valid. If reminding the users to respect the languages doesn't work out I'd support splitting the offtopic section in two parts. If the german users are a nuissance to others I'm firmly in support of measures to stop that.
Angryminer
I've been a member on several gaming boards for just about a decade (10 years) now, and I really didn't want to say anything here since every single one so far was unilingual.
I do agree with RoadRunner and his view and I just would like to add this board is about playing games and having fun.
Some people just don't 'get it' and always seem to have their own agenda.
Believe me when I say, this is not a language issue, as exactly these kind of disscussions (diversified topics) happen in those 'just english' forums as well on a regular basis - hence the 'invention' of moderators...
Its the people , not the language(s) that unit or seperate a gaming community. Don't try to blame the communication tools - if you must place blame, blame its users, its usage and its intents.
FrankishHero
11-04-2007, 02:27
I blame you for a post which has nothing to do with the subject at hand.
FrankishHero
11-04-2007, 03:19
Nothing has been proven.
Traveller
11-04-2007, 08:33
...So finaly I rarely visit other than "narrow KoH english forum"...
Same as me! :wink:
I don't know what was in the thread, which started this discussion, but whatever it was, I guess it was not a reason, but a symptom. A symptom of what seems to be an increasing alienation of the old members, who spoke only on English (with the exceptions of one Swedish and one Bulgarian thread and several German boards), although their languages were nearly enough for Babel. Some had good English, some had bad English, but all tried to learn it well enough and speak on it, so that we would all understand each other without problems. Now, when I personally log-in (something, which I admit I rarely do lately) and enter Webby's Inn, what I do when checking the threads is: "Not for me, not for me, not for me, not for me, not for me, not... Hold! This one looks worthy to be checked (especially if the thread starter is someone I know from before). Not for me, not for me, not for me, not for me..." And since the Tavern Story seems to have died out as well, I really don't see anything to keep me in this forum, except the habit from the old days itself. That's why sometimes I actually check only the KoH board - it's still divided on English and German boards and there's no risk of German threads overflowing and suffocating me from everywhere. Mind you, I've studied German for 5 years in school and I do understand a bit of it. But it's still too much for me to bother - I see that most of the users now are German-speaking and hence the majority of the threads would be German as well. I can communicate well on English and Bulgarian, Deutsch isn't my strong side, and I guess many of the English-speaking members here are similar to that situation. Which naturally causes many of us to fade away and thus the German threads become even more. But Sunflowers is a German company anyway, we're supposed to follow the German laws in this forum, most of the mods are Germans, so I guess we should actually be thankful that we're still allowed to speak on English here... :wink:
Well, you see... Excali has exactly the same problem as you have: he does not speak your language as you do not speak his one. my language?
My language is Czech. Though I comunicate in foreign language. This forum used to be international and I understood it as international.
it seems not to be eny more.
Yes, this is an international board.yes, but the internationality is becoming to be limited to Germany/Austria and Switzerland
But do you really think that separation will solve this problem?
if the flags don't work? It works rather good in KoH part. People like Laudan don't have andy problem with it, the same with Kuno and others who can and are willing to speak both languages. Those who don't understand one or the oher language, aren't bothered by posts they don't understand
I see the difficulties for you and for other people, but I am also convinced that we can learn to live with that. In fact, we have to: Otherwise, the English part will dry out and will become unattractive for new members.it already is. How many of new members (in the OFf-Topic forum) speak english?
I think I can name us all who don't speak German:
FrankishHero, Dobber, Rnett, PRC and NaVatar (and Traveller has returned :hello:). All others have left from various reasons and no new are comming. I wanted to make it attractive for the new members who can't speak German (newcommers are still here, at least in the KoH forum) so they don't need to search for the 1 or 2 threads in English among 20 German.
I asked for Ghetto for us when the Flags are not respected
Those automatic translaters do a wonderful job: they may translate things from languages you would never understand. What is the problem in asking to stick to English if you feel uncomfortable in reading (or ignoring) German replies? As you noticed, that request was respected.I'm not the one who will ask someone to translate me 15 posts to enable me join some discussion.
Maybe we should have another view on that issue: There are German users who want to participate in an English game or discussion. What's wrong about that? And what would be wrong about learning to communicate using two languages? I can use Czech, Slovak, English, French and Hebrew for at least basic communication. Those who can't/don't want to comunicate in English can - in most cases - speak just German. Don't tell me that I don't learn languages. English, btw is a basic need in today's world so comunication in it will only help them.
It is MY personal problem that an INTERNATIONAL forum I once joined and liked is becoming limited to German-Speking countries/members. Perhaps it is a natural process that is unchangable. I voiced my opinion in which I am not alone. Majority disagree. Ok, so leave me alone and I will leave you
And also when I personaly join a German thread, what sometimes happen, I respect it's language and try to post at least in 2 languages - in German to respect the lannguage division and in English to make myself more clear so somene who can speak both can translate it. I don't have the arrogance to post it in my mothertongue. I want to take part in something that is spoken in a language I don't master, I really want to so I try. But don't ask me to learn German when I recently study 2 other languages wihch are sometihng completely diferent
--
I do agree with RoadRunner and his view and I just would like to add this board is about playing games and having fun.
Some people just don't 'get it' and always seem to have their own agenda.
I did come here for fun. But the games I played, even the games I have started start to be inunderstandable for me because others don't respect language rules. How can I have fun when I don't understand?
Yes, I don't want to accept it. It is my personal problem, but not only of my person.
And don't try to start personal flaws please. We all can find something we don't like on others' characters. When I have problem I face it and discuss it. You'd perhaps like me to surrender and go away.
And I know that many people often feel something but are ashamed to say it. I don't, at least not here. You do not like it? Ignore me. Thanks
RoadRunner
11-04-2007, 09:04
I don't think "Learn german or snuff it" is the right approach.
If you or anyone else understood my posting that way, I apologize that I did not explain my view well enough. :huh:
I do not think that someone has to learn a language to participate in a discussion here. But I also do not see a reason why somebody - English or German speaker - should be excluded from a discussion just because he does not know the language of the others.
What do you do if you travel to a country and do not know the language? You try to communicate nevertheless. Why should that be forbidden here? Why should it be forbidden for an English speaking member to post an English comment into a German thread?
My suggestion: Relax. Do not make a mountain out of molehills. It is no harm if a thread changes the language for a short or longer period. The alternative would be that that thread would be without any activity. And: one single post asking to stick to English (or translating the German comment) can ease the situation, and if necessary a moderator may help (forgive me that I do not visit the Gaming section too often, but I cannot read everything here).
I also admit that the useage of language flags in the offtopic section is not done consequently, and I think the moderators should think about re-establishing that policy.
But if you divide the board, you will divide the community, and both parts will suffer. The - currently - bigger German part less, the smaller English part more. Germans will hardly visit the English boards (even if they know the language), and English speaking members will remain in their part wondering why the board is emptying, their questions will get no or late or few answers which will result in a drop of active users. And that only because you hate to read a German comment in an English thread? :sad:
Another suggestion: Feel free to post your English comments wherever you find it useful. Why not? Why not change the German language into English? :wink: The Google website translator is a nice tool to allow you to communicate without language problems. :go:
Yes, that means that we all have to change our behaviours a little bit. Yes, that might be uncomfortable and new for the moment. But if we are successful, we can establish a really international board.
Road Runner, sorry but I don't have the arrogance to ask someone to traslate me 15 or so posts into one of languages I can understand. I respect that the discussion takes part in German.
Sometimes when I feel I really want to I do it with respect to the topic and post in "Translator German" + English
Why do you think that German-not-speaking members do suggest the division of the forum now? Because we realized that the situation came so far that there is almost no place for us in the bilingual Offtopic forum.
I personaly didn't bother to visit this section because I knew that to find a thread I understand it will take me too long.
Even after the division of koH forums most of people who can speak both (Angryminer, Kuno, Laudan) post in both parts as long as the both parts actualy live.
Now there are only about 7 onlyEnglish speaking members of the off-Topic forum. The people are leavinf it for some reason. I tried to name the reason and offer a solution.
I understand that you German-and-English speakers don't like division into exclusively English and Deutsch Off-topic forum, you'd have to visit two. That's why the discussion was started to exchange our opinions and find a solution. Saying that this system works and we shuold not change it is irrelevant because the reason of this discussion is that it doesn't work.
I have to go now.. see you mates :wink:
RoadRunner
11-04-2007, 10:11
I am puzzled a bit... :scratch:
Why don't you use a website translator like Google? You can browse a German site and read the content in English. For this board, this is the link: http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fforum.sunflowers.de&langpair=de%7Cen&hl=de&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&prev=%2Flanguage_tools
OK, it's not the same as reading "handmade" English, but I believe it to be a good compromise...
And don't try too hard if you want to post in a German thread. Just write in English - most users will understand you. The machine translation is often hard to understand... :wink:
vBulletin v3.5.4, Copyright ©2000-2007, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.