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Finellach
17-01-2004, 16:27
Originally posted by Elewyn
I don't think so. Bulgaria then disappeared from political map until 1203, for almost 200years!!!
I think Finellach should read this:)
Hehe :D
But no really, I have the utmost respect for Bulgarians who are our allies for many years. And that goes for any other nation and their history except maybe the Serbs, but I believe you will understand why. This has nothing to do with nationalism, it's more of a personal nature.
The whole thing Bulgarians vs. me begun when someone said I said Bulgarians are poor warriors which is not true, only thing I said is that Danes and Croats are said to be the best wariorrs of Europe. I am sorry if someone was offended by this, but this was not said by me or by Croats.
Now, i'm well aware this is not a forum dedicated for swedes and danes :D and i wish to point out that i also found the Bulgarian history quite interesting to read also.
I also got the feeling that some of you non-scandinavians may think that it's kinda odd that we talk so much about our history, but that's just due to the fact that swedes and danes ( and norwegians ) are so closely linked together by history and language meaning that visiting ex. danes visiting one of the other two countries we can pretty much get around by speaking our native language because the others can understand us - i'll guess that that you can say that we are sorta "the brotherhood" of scandinavia weather we like it or not. During my research about the bloodbath at Stockholm i had to find a website from Sweden in order to figure out who "Sten Sture – the younger" was and also in order to cross check the facts and since we also share the written language ( well almost ! ) it wasen't really that hard for me.
Now, regarding the nationalism which people also talk about, to that i can say that "yes, ofcourse i'm a nationalist" meaning that i love my country and i'll bet that each of you also feel this way about your respective countries it's only natural - now i could take this subject a bit further, but then i think that there will go to much politics in it.......
To those of you who mistakinly thinks that this is a discussion about who was the good guys and who was the bad guys throughout history I can say that this is not the way i see it - to me it's more about sharing your country's history and i think that each of the stories are fun to read.
Just my 2 cents !
Jarlabanke
17-01-2004, 17:14
Just to add a bit about ChristianII, I remember reading he got thrown out of Denmark once he came back, he returned however to spend his last days in prison or something.
Originally posted by Jarlabanke
Just to add a bit about ChristianII, I remember reading he got thrown out of Denmark once he came back, he returned however to spend his last days in prison or something.
You are right about that one :) - after some time and lots of trouble with finance and the nobles he was overthrown by his uncle ( on his fathers side ) Frederik the 1st. and in 1549 he imprisonate at Kalundborg castle where he sat untill he died in 1559 - the story which leads to this is a bit long, so i'm not gonna post it - the "very" short story is that he tried to move the trade route between the Neatherlands and Russia up to copenhagen, Malmoe ( Malmø ) Stockholm.
Sir Jurand
17-01-2004, 19:18
A couple of years ago, I spoke with a Danish guy about his country. From the subject about the way of living in Denmark, it then changed about the relations with their neighbor countries. I asked him: " How come you are not some sort of united with Norway?I personally cant see a difference between you." and he said: "Well,not many people in Denmark like them because of the history". I then said: " I thought the Germans are the once you dont like because of history?" And he said "Yes, many people dont like Germans either". I asked him:" Ok, which ones of your neighbors you dislike most then?The Germans or the Norwegians?" And he said: "The Swedish!"...
He also pointed out that by "dislike" he just means that there is a degree of suspiciousness against them and that the different people in Denmark have different opinions about that. But still...to what extent you find this to be right,Henrik?
A gunpowder keg! I can almost smell the fire ...
:sick:
Originally posted by Sir Jurand
A couple of years ago, I spoke with a Danish guy about his country. From the subject about the way of living in Denmark, it then changed about the relations with their neighbor countries. I asked him: " How come you are not some sort of united with Norway?I personally cant see a difference between you." and he said: "Well,not many people in Denmark like them because of the history". I then said: " I thought the Germans are the once you dont like because of history?" And he said "Yes, many people dont like Germans either". I asked him:" Ok, which ones of your neighbors you dislike most then?The Germans or the Norwegians?" And he said: "The Swedish!"...
He also pointed out that by "dislike" he just means that there is a degree of suspiciousness against them and that the different people in Denmark have different opinions about that. But still...to what extent you find this to be right,Henrik?
Hi Sir Jurand
I’ll try to explain it as good as i can
But before I'll answer this question I wish point out that this is my PERSONAL OPINION and others are welcome to not agree with me.
The answer: I think that the way we see the two other countries in Denmark are like three brothers; the Norwegians are the kid brother and the Swedes are well.....the brother whom we always fight with - I think that the reason it is like this, is because we have a hard time admitting that our Swedish brothers probably always has been the clever one of us - imagine the Danes fighting with their fists and Swedes dodging and only punches where it really hurts ( Norway ) ! - A really good example of was when we lost Norway ! errrrmmm. – the short story !!! The English was at war with Napoleon and the Danes made a huge profit by trading with both England and France. The English laid a blockade to French harbours in order to prevent the French getting war supplies they did this by stopping and inspecting ships and among them lots of Danish vessels, as time vent by the English told the Danes ( the Danes were neutral at this time ) not to supply the French with war supplies and there were also a few incidents were English warship and Danish warship which protected the Danish merchant vessels got into a fight ( seabattle ) with the English. The Danes ignored the English warning not to supply the French and in order to make sure that the Danes behaved they sailed to Copenhagen and sized the Danish fleet. Now this did make the Danes kinda pissed, so they joined Napoleon to get even with the English and as far as I know the Swedes had also joined Napoleon ( the Swedish/Russian relationship has not always been an easy one ), but we all know what happened to Napoleon when he was defeated at Waterloo. As I understand it the Swedes had change side so when the war ended they were allied with England and Russia. When the war was over the victorious countries had the right to pillage and setting the term for pease, and this term was that Russia got Finland ( which Sweden owned ) and Sweden in return got Norway ( which Denmark owned ! ) – this little story proves my point about the Swedes were the clever one.
You stated that quote: “that there is a degree of suspiciousness”. This is maybe right, but I don’t think that this causes difficulties on a day to day basis at least i can’t recall hearing this, all I know is that there exists a warmth and kindly atmosphere among the three countries and meeting a Swede or a Norwegian when we travel abroad is “almost” as good as meeting a Dane, I also think that this so called suspiciousness has nothing to do with real life as a matter of fact many Danes envies the Swedes because they drives bigger cars ! and quite a few Danes moves to Sweden these years, so the only time nowadays where you will find “suspiciousness & hate” is when our national soccerteams meet, then you can be absolutely sure that the headlines in the Danish newspapers talk about “a Swedish invasion” and “we will avenge the loss of Norway” - a way the soccer match symbolises those old Danish/Swedish wars and ofcourse every match is a change for the Danes to get morally even with Swedes for they have “stolen” Norway so we are told ! – but as the story tells us: Sweden didn’t steal anything – it was their lawfull right as victor.
I’ll this answer your question :)
Sir Jurand
17-01-2004, 21:36
Well, the main thing that surprised me is that this guys said that Sweden is more "disliked" than Germany...I personally expected it to be in the other way round...
Anyway, I didnt try to provoke anybody, I only wanted to see ur(or from other Scandinavian people) opinion on that. After all, I also havent heard to be any problem from such kind between these three countries nowadays. This is one of the things that make me so much interested in the Scandinavian countries. Swedish and Danish, for example, are cool languages...its a shame that not many people speak them.
Some points, but I'm not a history expert, so I might not be very correct. I don't think Sweden was officially allied with Napoleon. Just that Russia decided to invade Finland, so we were at war with them. Now the King (who was considered crazy, the last of the Vasa kings) had to abdicate. Sweden chose a new king, one of Napoleons generals. He realized that the russians where to strong and that Finland was lost, but that now was a good time to strike against the danes instead. So, he sided against Napoleon. Of course the Swedish army had to marsch through Denmark to get to the continent, and this was the real goal, an excuse to make war against Denmark.
Most of the "hostility" between us in scandinavia is on a quite friendly basis. We Swedes has jokes, "Norgehistorier", about norwegians, and they have the same histories about us. Sure, there are some people who take this too far, and I think there's some resentment against us from the others. Danes for us stealing Norway and earlier Skåne, fins for us being "big brother" for so long, norwegians for us forcing them into a union, but at most times we get along. I believe atleast here in Sweden, most people see our neighbours as brothers.
And yes, it's really great that I can speak to people in my native tongue when I go abroad. One funny thing is that some people seem to understand you perfectly well, while some don't seem to understand you at all.
Sir Jurand
18-01-2004, 04:40
Well,if a Swedish person tries to speak to me in Swedish, I wouldnt "catch" a lot. If, however, I see something written in Swedish, I am much more likely to see common(or a bit different) to the German words.
Did Sweden try to get Finland back when it separated from Russia in 1917?
It can be confusing. Some words in german and swedish are very similar, but mean different things. But you can definitly see the likeness. (Atleast if you know the languages).
Oh, and with abroad I mean Denmark and Norway, and to some extent Finland (They are supposed to know Swedish, but a lot of them has resentment against it).
It was fun when I was in Germany, because appearently my pronounciation is quite good, so when I greeted people they would be fooled and believe I was a german, and speak to me in the most complicated way I didn't understand at all.
Jarlabanke
18-01-2004, 12:51
Just to clear up the Napoleonic things. Sweden's relations at that period are rather complicated.
When Gustav IV (who actually wasn't a Wasa but Pfalz as all kings after Karl X had been) was dethroned Sweden was in war vs Russia, the war in which we lost Finland and also in war vs Denmark (actually the Danes started this war with the intent to recapture Skåne), and thus also with Napoleon. Napoleon didn't care much at all and hardly anything. During the war some Norwegian who was related to the royal Danish family was chosen as the succesor to the throne, he however died from a stroke, they thought about replacing him with another member of the Danish royal family but settled for one of Napoleons commanders Jean baptiste Bernadotte.
1812 Sweden in exchange for Russias support in a campagin to conqer Norway renounces the claims on Finland.
The alliance with Russia makes us Napoleons enemies and our King led the allied forces against him in the battle at Leipzig. After a while peace is made. Norway goes to Sweden, and since then we've been at peace.
I wish say a big than you to both Jorghan and Jarlabanke :) for correcting the flaws in my "little" history as everyone can imagine this whole deal with Russia getting Finland and Sweden getting Norway thing is a rather complicate to explain in few words, so once again thanks guys :)
To Sir Jurand
I hope that you have gotten a small look into this Swedish/Danish ( and Norwegian ) matter as you see it has lots to do with feelings and these thing can sometimes be very difficult to put in right words so no-one misunderstand it.
If one should romanticize this whole relationship issue, i think that you can say that Sweden, Denmark and Norway are tied together by a chain which are forged by our common history - my personal feeling are that you can’t have one without the other two – this is a package deal whether some like it or not ;)
Originally posted by Sir Jurand
A couple of years ago, I spoke with a Danish guy about his country. From the subject about the way of living in Denmark, it then changed about the relations with their neighbor countries. I asked him: " How come you are not some sort of united with Norway?I personally cant see a difference between you." and he said: "Well,not many people in Denmark like them because of the history". I then said: " I thought the Germans are the once you dont like because of history?" And he said "Yes, many people dont like Germans either". I asked him:" Ok, which ones of your neighbors you dislike most then?The Germans or the Norwegians?" And he said: "The Swedish!"...
Ha, this reminds me of the situation on the Balkans (that's why I like the Scandinavians) - we hate each other, but still we are close. I can go to Macedonia or Serbia or Slovenia and understand them and they can understand me.
About the nationalism thing - if you think that I've started it, then you all (especially you Finellach) have my appologies - this was not my purpose. I just love my country and I know that we've had (and still have) great warriors. Because of that I've said that we were great warriors too. I didn't meant to attack somebody.
Peace and cheers :cheers: !
Sir Jurand
18-01-2004, 21:16
"I hope that you have gotten a small look into this Swedish/Danish ( and Norwegian ) matter as you see it has lots to do with feelings and these thing can sometimes be very difficult to put in right words so no-one misunderstand it."
Yes,indeed I have! But that wont be all because the discussions in these forums will continue:)
Haegemon
19-01-2004, 19:46
The past is boody in every contry in a lot of ways: ;(
Originally posted by Henrik
The ”short” story about the bloodbath in Stockholm in 1520
Seen before.
Originally posted by Elewyn
Really?? What about that one called "Basileos II.Bulgaroktonos and Bulgarians" I think that this Stockholm's bloodbath is such a light injury in comparison with this tale. 14 000 Bulgarians blinded, in every 100 of them was one with one eye left. And this army was sent to their tzar Samuel, who retreated from lost battle. When he saw it he had a heart attack and two days later he died.
For those who interests that kind of history, here there are two links::yawn:
Spanish Inquisition (http://www.bibletopics.com/biblestudy/64.htm)
Carphatian Vlad III The Impaler (http://www.donlinke.com/drakula/vlad.htm) :beek:
These are some really "nice" stories....
In summary, the Inquisition in Spain began in 1478 and officially ended in 1808. During that time, 323,362 people were burned and 17,659 were burned in effigy.
Thank God I'm not living in the Medieval. At the beginning of the muslimisation of the Balkans the Turks tortured a lot of people too, but the Inquisition is much more terrible.
Sir Jurand
19-01-2004, 23:25
Yeah, and in about 2 centuries, people might be saying to themselves "Thank God I am not living in 20-21 century...people at that time were always scared about their wealth and whether they wont be blown by terorists...":)
Originally posted by Sir Jurand
Yeah, and in about 2 centuries, people might be saying to themselves "Thank God I am not living in 20-21 century...people at that time were always scared about their wealth and whether they wont be blown by terorists...":)
Well, i don't mind getting b.... even if it's by a terrorist ;) - anything goes :D:D:D
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