[en] Rasism and Reversed-Rasism

[Angryminer]

Don't play on words yourself.
Even in germany there are people that live from the social system. That isn't illegal and doesn't make them criminals. Anyway, as I have no insight on the gypsy community I have to believe Traveller's report. Anything else would be highly ignorant.

Angryminer

[Traveller]

@Günter, You're the one playing on words, actually! And you seem to intentionally take whatever you like from the others words and transfrom it to a different thing. Not to mention you just can't hear what people say... Like if you're personally insulted or something! Or maybe you are?

Elvain didn't said that most of the gypsies are criminals, but I will say it. Or now you're gonna tell me I'm blind? No, I'm not blind and I do see what's going on around me. I believe I know much more gypsies than you and I have a better view on their way of thinking. I have paid attention to examinations of their ethnopsychology. And do you know what this psychology is? "If somebody has more money than me, then it's not a theft if I take some from him, without him knowing. It's redistribution!" Few are the gypsies that don't think this way and they're usually those from the first group - those that are becoming more or less civilised.

[Günter]

I'm not playing on words but on meanings, that's a difference, I think! Anyways, I'm out of this discussion by now, too disgusting for me. If people are allowed here to spread their racist propaganda it's not my board anymore, sorry!

[Traveller]

Hah! If truth makes me a racist, allright! If you can't stand an argue, allright! But I think you need to think a little more about it...

[Angryminer]

Please don't tease each other. I do accept Günter's argument that one should be extremely cautious when talking about racism.

Angryminer

[Elvain]

sorry, Günter, yes I use words most and mostly because I don't like to generalize and say all because I know that it's not true. And there is big diference between mostly and sometimes.
I just never said that most of them are criminals.
I also don't want to say that paraziting on social system is crime. It is something you would probably want me to say (wou are here who plays with words)

If someone doesn't work, it's his choice, he has right to do so. It is not about racism. When someone doesn't want to be valuable member of society but wants the same society to give him money for living it is not crime, it is just something what people don't like.
Nobody dislikes them because they are Gypsies, those who WANT to work and try to have good qualification really have the job. Those who are lazy (no matter who, if Gypsy, German, Czech or Indian) will never work (unless they live in communism).

When I say that only about 10% of some group has legal job I want to say that it is not question of discrimination, but question of will, coz in the same region there is another minority group which is right the oposite and it's percentage of working people is much higher than majority.
And mentioning legal job: is prostitution a legal job for you? not for me. But those people "work" in it. They make their living by money from that, not only those girls, but their parents who force them to do it. And IMO this should be understood as illegal. And no, I don't say that MOST of Gypsies make their money from prostitution, it is not true. But there are many among them, and the rest lives from social system. It is legal, of course.
But I don't want to pay money to those who have never wanted to work. I have nothing against support of those who can't find the job for some time although they try. If you, Günter don't mind, it is your choice. After 50 years of this "system" people here are tired of it.

[Elvain]

Well, I suggest that you rather look for official statistics instead of relying to those of the media which are usually oriented... :rolleye:
medias are usually somehow oriented.
One newspaper to one group of interest, another to another.
But when ALL release same statistics from reliable state sources it is something else.

You may think that all Czech media are anti-Gypsy orientated. You may think whatever you want. You may even think I am racist. But it won't change the fact that most of Gypsies don't try to improve their situation by work (or supporting children to study) especialy when they live in numerous communities which DON't keep any kind of traditions (except 2-3 generation tradition of living from social system)

believe me. To have one minority integrated into society you need both sides to cooperate.
Here state organizations (ministry for social agenda)cooperate with non-state organisations and employers but when the target group of people doesn't cooperate it has no result. No employer here refuses a Gypsy applying for a job fulfilling necessary criteria(qualification) also because if he will, state will punnish him. But when you have no Gypsy applying for job or no Gypsy who is qualified, you cant give him the job!

I don't know if you only misunderstood me or WANTED to misunderstand, only you know. I am not anti-Gypsy orientated. I am anti-lazy orientated.

[Moryarity]

Maybe this is the time to calm down a bit and cool the temper: as it seems obvious that some of us has lost the track, what the different peoples statements were, maybe everybody should make a short and very carefully and exact formulated statement, before the discussion goes on...so I wil start:

1. I was never confronted with such a "gypsy" problem here in Germany
2. Depending on what was said, I would say, that it is a problem depending on paraziting hte social system, rather than of the "gypsy"-community itself, as I suspect, you would complain alao about any other group, "paratizing" the system
3.If it is in fact so, i am asking myself, if it is not a question of "hen and egg"...although there are law to integrate the gypsies, you have to ask yourself if the are not only on the paper, but also in practical use...in Germany there are also such laws, but in fact....nbot inall cases they are followed....if they are followed, you should ask, if there is a reason for the behavour you have not taken into account yet....

[Noldy]

@Elvain:

One must really be careful when condeming the majority of the minority (hey, that sounds cool) for being lazy. Here in Netherlands most Turks and Marocs are considered lazy. They always seem to end up with some sort of social benifit when they dont get work or apparently cant work. The ones that hang out at night on the street are mostly those people. The same people come almost daily in our news when they went fighting again with someone, and i admit, after all this, I have a very bitter and sour view one the Turks and Marocs. I guess it's precicely the same with you. But why do they end up on the street and go into criminal acts? Why are always the Gypsies getting involved in robberies and such? It's a question I ask myself every day, and there are times that I actually blaim Islam for the criminal acts in NL because it always seems to be the muslims.

[Traveller]

@Moryarity,
2. Ofcourse. I don't dislike any race or ethnos, for example gypsies only because they're gypsies. That's rasism and I don't think I'm a racist. I don't like gypsies, because the most of them are lazy, paraziting, insolent and many of them are in some form criminals. Those gypsies that behave like civilized people are no problem to me. I already said, that I live in the same block with such gypsy families and I have friends from them.
3. I'm not sure I understood what you wanted to say. If it is the enforcement of the law: There are laws and that's what many people want after the last case (the 60:10 fight). There were protests demanding equal laws and rights. Many gypsies don't pay their bills and taxes and make illegal shacks on government land (btw they make a really lot of garbage). But since they're a minority, nobody dares to touch them and that's why I created this thread. I have a friend who's a police captain and he has told me that they don't dare to enter the gypsy getto when there is a crime, because "the epidemy will start". Few years ago there was a war between some gypsy families in one city (Vidin, I think) and the police came to move and thus save one of the families. They moved through the whole country as the gypsies always complained the land and houses they'll receive are not good enough and they'll sue us in Strassbourg for violating their civil and human rights. They even put themselves on fire in front of the National Palace of Culture in Sofia. Gypsies, in common, just play with the authorities, taking the fact that they're a "discriminated minority". Ofcourse, if a Bulgarian does the same thing, he'll immediately be arrested. That's why many Bulgarians now say "In Bulgaria you should be a gypsy to live!" Especially now, since elections are coming in the end of the month. Police intentionally handles the gypsies much weaker, as they form a big interest for the parties. And that's the problem: There are laws, but they're only for the Bulgarians (and Turks, Jews, Armenians etc.), while the gypsies receive even more rights (and much more than us)!

@Noldy,
1. Isn't it strange? Here, in Bulgaria, as a country bordering with Turkey, we have also many Turks, especially in the southern regions (gypsies are around 14%, Turks ~8%). And although I don't like their history, I must admit that here they're pretty much like the Vietnamese from Elvains example. They are very hard-working, I might say that they work more and better even than us. We hired some builders last summer to repair my fathers office house and guess what! There was one Turk and the rest were Bulgarians (ofcourse, no gypsies, they rarely wish to work such hard jobs). The Turk worked the most and did great job, I was really pleased with it. The Bulgarians, as we say, "left their hands there", or translated - they didn't do a good job. And here's the difference - there are two major minorities in Bulgaria: Gypsy and Turks. There were or still are smaller minorities like Jews (and Jew is not only a religious sign; Judaeans and Israelites form the Jewish ethnicity), Armenians, Russians, Vietnamese, Chinese, Greeks, Wlachs, Karakachans etc. And, as one article in a Bulgarian newspaper said, the difference is that those minorities are civilized people, people of law and order, while the gypsies haven't moved from their "nomadic" ways and mentality for milleniums.
2. I admit that not only the gypsies are thieves, rapists, prostitutes and pimps. We have our criminals, too. I don't remember exactly who, but I remember that one man had said something like that: "Every nation has it's good people and bad people. Every nation has it's well-doers and it's criminals, saints and monsters." The thing is what the majority of the group is. If everybody in my class has high marks, except one or two people, then all would say that in common the class has high marks, despite the lower marks of the few.



P.S. From the 7 people that were hospitalized after the beating from the 60 gypsies group, there are now 6 left. The 53 year old professor of history from the New Bulgarian University Stanimir Kaloianov passed away yesterday, after a week in coma and state of brain death. He had graduated the Veliko Tarnovo University with the subjects History and French philology and later, as a high school teacher, he teached many gypsy kids of History and French. May He Rest In Peace!