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Traveller
25-05-2005, 14:37
Here's another hot thread, where we can flame, blame and lame. And here's the "inspiration" that made me create it:

Yesterday, I was watching the news. It was 24th of May - The Holiday of the Bulgarian (some call it Slavic) Alphabet and Culture, the Holiday of St. Cyril and St. Methodius. This is one of the big Bulgarian holidays and ofcourse was a "not-working" and "not-studying" day. And after all the pleasant news of the celebrations in different places, there came one that really angered me. 10 people had gathered in a cafe for a private party to celebrate the school-leaving ball of the owner's son. Everything was going peaceful, until all of a sudden an inadequate gypsy (drunk or "high", I don't know) came, striking at the door and shouting he wants a drink. When the owner told him it's closed for a private party, the gypsy shouted (Sorry that I'll quote him exactly, but the truth is a truth! Not for little kids): "I'll f*ck your Bulgarian dirty mothers! I'm going to gather the neighbourhood and you'll see who's who!" Recently, a large group of gypsies had illegaly placed themselves in the neighbourhood and had created something like a "getto". In 10 minutes 60 gypsies came armed with stones, pipes and knives and attacked everybody in the cafe. The fight lasted for more than half an hour. One of the professors, that was in the cafe, was dragged by a group of the gypsies to the street and has been seriously beaten. Now he's in a coma with his life in danger. Soon after some policemen came, but the gypsies attacked them, too. Two hours after the start of the "battle" they were dispersed and only two of them had been arrested. The investigation of the reporters team showed that recently one man has been killed in a robbery act and three 15-year old girls had been raped by men from those same "contingent", but were too afraid to report to the police. Unfortunately, it's true that there's no use to call the police, because the police can't do anything to them. And so can't the government. I'll give some more examples to show the helplesness of the authorities and the insolence of the "minority":

1. One recent example from the last two weeks: In the city of Yambol, the government had given rental appartments to the homeless gypsies in the city. Ofcourse, they had to pay a rent for their new home, as the government land is not free. But for the last 5 years none of the gypsy families had paid even a small sum of their debt. Seeing that they aren't capable or, actually, won't pay, the municipality decided to forgive them their debts, but the gypsies had to leave their appartments. And instead of thanking for the remission, they protested that they're being kicked out of their homes (that, to remind you, they hadn't paid a cent for).
2. Second example, that comes to my mind: Some time ago two forest-guards (rangers) encountered a whole family from the so called "wooden mafia" (gypsy families that illegaly cut down and sell trees in very large numbers). When they asked for an explanation the whole group suddenly attacked them with their axes and whatever they had nearby. They even managed to take the gun of one of the surprised rangers and shoot him down. Like a real miracle both the guards survived, but ofcourse could no longer serve their duty.
3. Third example from an year or two ago: Location: The gypsy district of Stolipinovo in the city of Plovdiv. An inspector from the electrity company had came to shut down the electricity of the whole district, as the majority of the local gyspies hadn't paid their bills for more than 8 years. Ofcourse, the company could no longer tolerate such a behaviour and the following expenses. And guess what? The whole district gathered and beated the poor man. But that's nothing unusual! Reports of beaten citizens and especially inspectors or government employees are so frequent, that nobody pays attention to them anymore (which is a sad note). But then when another inspector came, guarded with a small police escort, the gypsies gathered again, attacked and chased away the policemen and then the whole district rebelled, demanding that the government remission their debts. Ofcourse, the government couldn't do that directly, as it doesn't control the whole of the electric company, so they sent more policemen, together with armoured vehicles to cool things down. As a result, the district became like a battle zone, with the only difference that only one side was fighting, because the police wasn't allowed to use weapons, only some gas and water, that didn't have almost any effect. At the end, the company was forced to remission their debts as this happened to become a frequent practice.

Many more examples can be given: the so called "beggar's mafia" - beggar families that have created a whole unofficial organization that allows only gypsies to beg at the streets, as it seems to be a profitable business; ofcourse, some of the beggars only pretend to be crippled, but there are reports that little children and even babies had their arms cut in order to provoke pity, and there is also the common practice to drug the babies, so that they don't cry and look more "miserable". Also there is a huge ammount of pickpocketeers, so if you happen to come to Bulgaria, don't be surprised most of the women keep their handbags closely tight in front of them. I won't mention all the other cases of rapings, robberies, murders and such other non-organized crimes, that are frequent cases in this minority's "dossier".

And the worst thing is that nobody can do anything about it! If someone complains, he is first threatened (and then the threats are being realised, ofcourse) and then the gypsies say: "Oh, they have put their aim on us, because we are a minority and we can't protect ourselves!" and then they sue the country in Strassbourg. The government can't handle them either, because of the same reasons. And it is even increasing their rights to a stage that they now have more rights than us. F.e. they recently accepted that every gypsy kid that has in school more than 4,50 (from maximum 6) as a sum of the marks will receive a scholarship of 100 levs. The absurd thing is that the Bulgarian kids must have 5,50 in order to receive... 20 levs. Another common practice is, as I've already mentioned, that the gypsies massively don't pay any kinds of bills, be it rent, electricity, telephones, water, public transport or whatever. And they hide behind the fact they're a minority and then the government gives them even more rights! I think there's a term, pretty popular in the States, which is something like "reversed-rasism", a rasism towards the majority. And so, my question is: Do you have or have had some problems of this sort (ofcourse, not in such size) in your country and how are or have you solved it?

P.S. As most of you people live to the west, in west Europe or America, and have a different idea of the gypsy ethnos, I must add that most of the "old-style gypsies" that live in the west are not the same type of gypsies as ours. In movies you'll usually see fun-and-dance loving, free minded, mysterious, nomadic people that travel with their gypsy tents to different fairs and usually predict the future through hieromanty or Taro cards. The gypsies here (or Roma as they call themselves) are different. The only common thing with the above description is that some do "predict the future" through hieromanty, but usually only to distract you, so that the kids could pick-pocket you easily.
Edit: And another bad thing about this is that many of the gypsies are migrating to you, to the more developed countries, in hope to take use of the new situation and the not so cautious people there. Ofcourse, they're quickly extradited, but the image of Bulgaria is still being hurt. Some of you when thinking of Bulgaria and Bulgarians, might be picturing exactly this - pickpocketeers, prostitutes and all kinds of criminals. I've even saw in some tourist sites about Bulgaria pictures of gypsies in their dirty gettos and a sign under "Bulgarians", which IMO is outrageous! So, what do you think? Can overextented civil rights be a real menace or is it just us and our incapability to deal with our internal ethnical problems?

Webmaster
25-05-2005, 15:03
wow!
didn't know that gypsies are this kind of trouble in eastern europe!
a friend of mine comes from romania and we call him "zigu" (zigeuner = gypsie in german)

the EU rules for protecting minorities like the basques and many more european minorities are good. but they shouldn't be used abusive!!!

Noldy
25-05-2005, 15:29
Ive got an uncle in Rumania, and yea, from what he tells me... they are a problem.

Moryarity
25-05-2005, 16:20
We do not have such problems here..at least..I would not know of any....what you describe is very extreme...like some kind of Mafia or Yakusa......strange thing...best would be, that it wouldn´t be necessary to "protect" minorities, for every one accept every one else...but lets be honest, that is just a dream..so minorities must be protected as long as they do not use there protection in that way.....it is a crime and should be persecuted

Xuca
25-05-2005, 16:59
we have a problem with them here, too. But here there are two groups of them:
1.Those who work and go to school
2.Those who don't work or go to school. They are the ones causing the trouble.

Gypsies from the first group are mostly friendly and people like them, because one of few jobs a Gypsy can do is to be a trumpet player, and that is the best way of fun we Serbs like. The jobs that only Gypsies do are trumpeters and garbage men, and there are many gypsy singers. But there is almost no Gypsies doing othe jobs.
The Gypsies from the second group usually walk in groups of 5-10. They are very dangerous and people stay away from them. They during night intercept people and rob them. And, of course, there is "beggar's mafia" here, too. You can often see a child holding a baby on the street, or a Gypsy criple but the people don't pay too much attention to them anymore.
But there weren't any incidents like those Travaller described recently. lt's maybe the goverment just ignores them and don't do anything to help them. There are many illegal gypsy settlements where live in huts without electricity any plumbing, and the goverment always says that they will destroy those but they never do it. And there is no clear solution for the problem now

Webmaster
25-05-2005, 17:05
the problem is, how can the gypsies be integrated in society/EU without loosing their cultural identity

Moryarity
25-05-2005, 17:29
Well, I would say, that wiothin these groupes, that rob people etc, there is not much "cultural identity" left....at least none original one...

Angryminer
25-05-2005, 17:31
I don't have too much insight on Bulgaria's domestic policy concerning cultural integration, so I can't comment too much on this.
But when talking about germany I can say that immigrants recieve a fair amount of help. They recieve about 55 000€ as credit free of charges with endless duration (basically: money for free) so they can effort an own house. That is very good in my opinion, because that way they will have new neighbours that are most propably not immigrants themselves, which helps a lot in integrating them into the new surrounding.
Also, in many areas it isn't possible as an immigrant to build your house in an area where many immigrants live. That way "ghettos" are at least partially prohibited.

Angryminer

Traveller
25-05-2005, 17:32
Xuca, we have two such groups here, too. I know some gypsies from the first goup, because I have some neighbours that are from the "civilized" gypsies. They're pretty nice people, too. And they also work mainly as garbage men, taxi drivers and the most succesful of them as singers or musicians. But, unfortunately, this first group is too small compared to the other group, which is just too big.

Webi, don't worry! Gypsies will never lose their identity. Actually, the others can lose their identity to them. For example, in Bulgaria there is a music style called "chalga", which is a mix from old Serbian music (like Lepa Brena etc.) and the gypsy music and is currently the most popular music in whole Bulgaria and has conquered the whole region. And the gypsies also live in closed groups, like the Jews in the Middle ages, they rarely marry to someone outside this group and could hardly lose anything of their identity.
Besides, recent research shows that within 50 years the gypsies in Bulgaria WILL be more than the Bulgarians themselves. Because, just like many people from the 3rd world, they make babies like rabbits. Some have even 10 kids, while the average Bulgarian family has maximum 2!
Btw we call them "zigani" too, but as I said they prefer "Roma".

Xuca
25-05-2005, 17:43
But l think Moryarity is right and that they already lost their identity:
As most of you people live to the west, in west Europe or America, and have a different idea of the gypsy ethnos, I must add that most of the "old-style gypsies" that live in the west are not the same type of gypsies as ours. In movies you'll usually see fun-and-dance loving, free minded, mysterious, nomadic people that travel with their gypsy tents to different fairs and usually predict the future through hieromanty or Taro cards. The gypsies here (or Roma as they call themselves) are different. The only common thing with the above description is that some do "predict the future" through hieromanty, but usually only to distract you, so that the kids could pick-pocket you easily.

And there is in Serbia a music style called "narodnjaci" or turbo folk which is a combination of songs like Lepa Brena's, modern music and gypsy music, but that is not "cultural identity".

Elvain
25-05-2005, 18:29
We have the problem with gypsies too.
I must agree with Xuca that there are at least 2 kinds of them, as he described them.
I would also add one more group: those who would like to work, but they got confused when majority didn't accept them, so agter several atempts they were stil unemployed and city administrative moved them to quaters where many gypsies of group 2(those who don't want to work) live. And their kids are becomming the same
the problem is, how can the gypsies be integrated in society/EU without loosing their cultural identity
there is only a very small minority among Gypsies who keep their tradition. Unfortunately they lived for 40 years in communism. The regime disabled them their nomadic life, forced them to go to work(but only to go there, not work). They got used to very benevolent social system and when THE CHANGE came in 1989, most of them (group 2) didn't want to change anything. But most of them lost their jobs and are (many of them untill today) unemployed. I must repeat that in many cases it is not only their fault. But those who really wanted a job and proved it, got it.
UInfortunately they mostly have to prove it while the majority doesn't.

Fortunately there are (except several rare cases) not so brutal incidents here. But I must say that when I meet a group of 17 years old gypsies who look very asympathic to me (like every such Czech/German/French/British or whatever else group). It is enough for them to see that I dislike them and if they attack me, they would say:
"He looked at us as at strangers. He didn't like us and he told us we are dirty Gypsies" and at the court they will win, because if not, the state will be criticised by EU for discrimination of "Romas"(they are called Cikáni here, but they forced this word our of political corectness, so in media they are called wrog:Romas/Romové)

It is problem. Both sides MUST have will to solve it. There are several cases of succesfull Gypsy businessmen. Generaly the first step to success is to split the kids into schools from other social groups and social majority. Some of them will have bigger chance to change. And they won't lose their traditional culture, because at least here in most problematic regions they don't live in traditional way of Gypsy life.

btw: I have red an interview with one famous gypsy singer, one of the most succesfull Gypsies in our society.
He said something like this:
We are not Romas, we are Gypsies. We are not nation of musicians and nomads, not today. I don't want any positive discrimination because it causes more bad than good. Many our people are lazy and job got by positive discrimination key won't help them. The only problem is that majority society must leave it's automatical despect towards our people. Those who try deserve equal chances. Those who don't try deserve also equal chances: have to be punnsihed Gypsies or not.

This is how leaders should speak. But unfortunately he is almost better known among Czechs than Gypsies :eek: coz most of Gypsies prefere other "authorities"

Günter
27-05-2005, 17:09
I don't think that this thread has got something to do with racism or (horribile dictu) "reverse racism". There are criminals all over our cities and countries, and you (have to ?) admit yourself that there are also other ones. Even if you can really be sure that most of the Gypsies are criminals (I doubt you can!), this won't say anything about the whole people...

Okay, comparing them with the Jewish ghettos there's one thing in common: the German Jews were still German when they were exterminated and nobody bothered about the ideological contradictions of Germans killing Germans in the name of Germany, - aren't the Bulgarian Gypsies also Bulgarians? So, what's your problem with them? I rather suppose it's your police who isn't able to get over your criminals.

Traveller
27-05-2005, 18:04
What's my problem? Come to Bulgaria and go to the gypsies districts and you'll see what's my problem! And it will soon become yours, I'm sure! Just as all the raped girls (or even old ladies), murdered and robbed people, not to mention the threats, fear etc.

And about the topic of the thread: Isn't "reverse racism" exactly this? If you call a black man "nigga" in the States, even if you don't mean it as an insult, won't you immediately be sued for rasist marks? But if he calls you "whity" or something like that will he lose a trial for the same thing? Same is here: You don't give a job to a Bulgarian - everything's OK. You don't give a job to a gypsy - it's discrimination.
And btw German Jews were German only by citizenship, but by ethnicity they were Jews. That's why they're called German Jews, not just Germans. I could become a citizen of Tambuktu, for example, but I would still be Bulgarian. I would only be a citizen of Tambuktu.

Ofcourse, you'll probably be unable to understand such disturbing things so far away from your cosy, peaceful life. Not until they come to you...

Günter
27-05-2005, 18:35
I don't have to come to you, I just look around over here in my home town (Frankfurt) and find enough districts which I won't cross alone in the night myself. You'll find people of different origins living there, except that I don't look at them as members of an "ethnicity" (whatever you understand by this) but just as criminals...

And sorry to correct you but there's no Jewish ethnicity, Jewish means just the membership of a religion. They still were German with the same culture as everybody else living here (ok, except some differences in religious rites, but that's the same with any Catholics, Protestants, or members of other religions). They never went to Timbuktu or anywhere else, neither did they come from elsewhere but lived in Germany since generations.

It was the invention of the ideology of "ethnicity" which created racism!

Cosy, peaceful over here? Come to Frankfurt and you'll be surprised (but don't cross the streets around the main station in the night ...) :eek:

Elvain
29-05-2005, 22:38
Günter. Nobody here said that ALL Gypsies are criminals.

It is not ethnicity of Gypsies what causes problems. How is it possible that blacks from Africa integrate into our society easily than Gypsies?
For instance, British criticised czech government for discrimination of Gypsies, but then Gypsies from Czechia started to move to Britain. But most of them were doing just the same like here. Sit somewhere, occupy several houses and demand money from social system.
They didn't move there because there are better payed jobs(like many people from post-communist Europe, including Czechs), but because they wil get more money from social system! Those who want to work can do it here. Generaly they have it little harder because many times they must prove they are not criminals. In other hand, if you would meet 50 Czechs and 50 of them will be thiefs or some kind of criminal, when you will see 51st Czech, you will label him as very probable criminal so you wil first want him to prove he's not.

Günter
30-05-2005, 10:23
Günter. Nobody here said that ALL Gypsies are criminals.

Sure, that's understood. Yet, you say that "most of them" are. So, how do you know that? Are there any official statistics or how did you make up your opinion? And what do they say themselves about it?

In other hand, if you would meet 50 Czechs and 50 of them will be thiefs or some kind of criminal, when you will see 51st Czech, you will label him as very probable criminal so you wil first want him to prove he's not.
You can be pretty sure that I won't since I won't look at their nationality but just at their crimes. And I wouldn't label somebody as criminal before he isn't judged by a court. Until then, Mr. 51 would be a probable innocent person, - ever heard about the democratic principle "in dubio pro reo" ?

Elvain
30-05-2005, 10:48
I don't even say that most of them are criminals. I only say that most of Czechs have bad experience with them.
Here it's not so hard like in Bulgaria, but most of whites don't like them because most of Gypsies have no interest in searching a job. Most of people here lived for 40 years under communism with too benevolent social system (unbearably benevolent). Many people got used to it and now they complain: why the state doesn't give me any job? State is here to pay me from social system or give me a job. Most of those people are Gypsies (about 90%).

Here are 2 big minorities: Gypsies and Vietnamees.
Gypsies mostly parazite on social system and make babies to have more money from state (the more children family has, the more money state gives them - but for normal family which wants to live in high standards and want children to study it's not enough as students earn no money, while 15years old Gypsy girls are sent to prostitute etc.)
However Vietnamees were in 95% market sellers (first generation) but they invested their money into education of their children so now about 80% of Vietnameese children study at high schools or have ambitions to go there whilein Gypsy polpulation it is not higher than 10% WHY?
such diference can't be caused by discrimination, the majority "disliked" both of those groups the same at the beggining. But one(Vietnameese) proved that they (mostly) WANT to offer something to society while Gypsies mostly only want to parazite on social system. So now when one sees a Czech, a Vietnameese and a Gypsy applying for a job it is like 70% vs.90% vs.20% that they will be reliable and perspective employees.
This is not discrimination, it is about value those groups show to society.

PS: try to go to Czech-region bordering with Germany. You will see there many prostitutes. Those who are not "imported" from Ukraine and Russia are Gypsies. Only about 10% of Gypsies in those regions have legal job. My source is not some exact state statistic, but what I see when such statistics shown are in medias from time to time.
Generaly: where is high concentration of Gypsies there is very low percentage of employed Gypsies(up to 20%). Where they are splited the percentage is much higher.

Günter
30-05-2005, 12:14
I don't even say that most of them are criminals.
Don't you? Well, then I don't understand how I am supposed to read what I've marked in red color in your post:

I only say that most of Czechs have bad experience with them.
Here it's not so hard like in Bulgaria, but most of whites don't like them because most of Gypsies have no interest in searching a job. Most of people here lived for 40 years under communism with too benevolent social system (unbearably benevolent). Many people got used to it and now they complain: why the state doesn't give me any job? State is here to pay me from social system or give me a job. Most of those people are Gypsies (about 90%).

Here are 2 big minorities: Gypsies and Vietnamees.
Gypsies mostly parazite on social system and make babies to have more money from state ....
.... while Gypsies mostly only want to parazite on social system ....
Should I substitute each time "some" for "most of" (resp. "sometimes" for "mostly") ? Then, why didn't you write it? :scratch:

My source is not some exact state statistic, but what I see when such statistics shown are in medias from time to time.

Well, I suggest that you rather look for official statistics instead of relying to those of the media which are usually oriented... :rolleye:

Angryminer
30-05-2005, 12:18
The words "most of" or "mostly" do appear in elvain's texts. Yes.
But none of the pointed out sentences say that Elvain believes that most of the Gypsies are criminals.

Angryminer

Günter
30-05-2005, 12:27
Really not? Okay, he didn't say it explicitly but I'm not naive enough not to understand what he wants to say between the lines. For instance, when he says that "most of Gypsies have no interest in searching a job" he understands that they prefer to live from committing crimes instead, no? Or when he speaks of "paraziting on the social system" he's looking to it as a crime, right? And he adresses Gypsy prostitutes explicitly as illegal in the sentence "Only about 10% of Gypsies in those regions have legal job."

So, don't play on words, please! :nono: