Units, Factions and Religion

[Siena]

I thought about an issue of balancing units with territories, religions and factions. In most TBS games the faction is allowed to build only its own units, no matter what territory it conquers. In some games, there are some minor exceptions - where some new units are "allowed" to be built in new territories. Like MTW or "Legion" games did. But mostly - each faction had to use its own units.

But I think that it is possible to make it different way.
For example - lets say Seljuks conquers Paris. What units would it be able to build there?
It seems to me, that Paris would always be able to make only certain local units - no matter who conquered and of what religion conquerors would be.
Religion only affects certain - zealot units. Like monks-knights (Templar, Teutonic). Also, Seljuks could not build turk units in Paris. And whether Seljuks are Muslim or Orthodox - does not affect what units they can build in Paris.
Paris can produce only its local units.

Same - if France conquers Egypt. They cannot start building European units there. There are only local people there. Zealots would never fight for conqueror, but local people just might - if given good incentive. But their armament would always be local.

Unless we consider colonization or something like that. But that takes a long long long time. Especially with different religions and cultures.

For example - lets say Lithuania starts the war with Rus and conquers a few provinces. What can it build in those? It cannot build Lithuanian units in Russian provinces. It can build only local - Russian units. If they happen to be the same - swordsmen, light cavalry - then it is simple (however to remind the point - that Lithuanians had a bit different cavalry from Russians). Also, it would be logical, that while Rus still has its own provinces - the units that conquerors build in Russia could be made a little bit more expensive for them - inhabitants don't want to fight for new conquerors for nothing. And if Russia does not exist anymore - price for units that conqueror builds in Russia goes down to normal.
Also, if Lithuania conquers all of Russian provinces - it could be allowed to build Russian special unit also. That could be incentive to get all provinces of same country. But that is optional...
Also - if Lithuania remains pagan - it can never build some Russian orthodox units - if such exists.

*I copied most of this from my own post in another thread, but I did not want this idea to go unnoticed :) *

[Elewyn]

I agree with you Siena in most of your points.

Only the prize of units. When a Lithuanian "king" conqueres whole Rus, he's still a conqueror, I don't think that the prize should lower then. because local people will see you still as conqueror. (Imagine you are Russian. Lithuainans conquere your region first, but after some time they conquere whole Russia. Will your behavior to them change only because of this fact?).

I think this is becoming too detailed, You have to consider if highlanders would like to fight for the English, if for the French, Norweegean, Irish, German etc. (finally all available nations) That's too complicated.

Just make categories of - as you called them - zealot units like Templars, Teutons, Saracens probably too etc. So, France conqueres Palestine, where Saracens are original unit. I agree that no european swordsmen, nor Saracens should be available for France, but Turcopoles. I guess they were local army fighting for catholic states in Holy Land. So, this could be the possibility.
We also know that Ottomans had some units like this, recruited from local Balkan population, but fought for them Sipahi they called them, I guess (correct me if I'm wrong).

So I suggest when christians took arabic or muslim region, they should be able to recruit turcopoles, when arabs conquere christian region, they should be able to recruit sipahis where special unit is produced for christians (in Paris, where Templars are or in Bavaria, where Teutons are), but in regions where everybody can recruit only swordsmen or men-at-arms, they (non-christians) should be able to recruit them too. just to compensate impossibility of special units by other special units for them.

Cavalry (nobility, I suppose, because cavalry units usualy were recruited from local nobility) will be recruitable for all nations because nobles usually became loyal after some time. But they should be bit more expensive for non-original-nations (they must "buy" their loyality), of course except those who are in zealot category.

I'm sorry for that long and not-so-systematical post...

[Bora]

as i know units are already binded to territory and not to a special nation or a religion. so frank&frujin, please corret me if i am wrong there. the only thing is: the unit must be a "special unit" like the archers from wales or teutonic champions.
example: if kalif abdulla the XVXIXIX conqueres wales he also can recruit (recruiting, not build!) the famous archers of wales.

[Elewyn]

I thought about it and this is the result:
I suggest dividing units into 2 main groups:
(I.) Special and (II.) Ordinary
Special are then divided into:
1. zealot units
2. local units
3. substitute units

in zealot group there will be only zealot footmen:
Templars
Teutons
some moslem unit probably will be added in extension (Hassasins?)

Zealots are available only in certain regions and only for particular religious fractions

local units will be:
Normans
Vikings
Saracens
highlander
Janissary
Longbowmen
Hobilars
Cataphracts
Feudal knights
Boyars
Camel Riders
Steppe horsemen

Local units are available only in certain region, but for all fractions but will be more expensive for non-original/non-local fractions

substitute units are:
turcopoles
sipahi
???

they are available only in regions where oposite religious fraction has it's own zealot unitsto compensate the disadvantage. Thay are local units with diferent religion than is in their region original.

Then, we have Ordinary units which are available almost everywhere for all fractions without any disadantages like expensivity. Thay are:
Men-at-arms
Swordsmen
Peasants
Archers
Crossbowmen
Cavalry
Knights and Knight's own guards
King
Horse archers
Spearmen
Halberdier
Royal guards

there Peasants, Royal guards, Knights and King are supraordinary units, available everywhere.

[Bagpipe]

Your distribution is rather good.:)
Totally agree that special units have to be divided to "depended on religion" and "universal" or something like that.

[Frank Fay]

We have something which comes very close. But I am not allowed yet to speak about it so :rolleye:

[Elewyn]

I expected you can't do reveal it yet. We'll wait.


:bash: no, I can't :bash: But must :sad:

[Elewyn]

can you tell us how wide the unit extension is. We know how it is with religions, map, but not units (oh, my other voice tells me that there always must be something unknown ). How many units you are going to add? do you know it yet?

[Haegemon]

I saw in "mounted units" from "unit showcase" that knight has his own guards. Here my question: King also mounted has his own escort? Someone knows?

[Bagpipe]

Yes, Elewyn is right. How many new units there will be? What are they?

[Frank Fay]

King also mounted has his own escort
Yes, act similar to the Knight's guards.

can you tell us how wide the unit extension is
Yes, the units are getting currently moddeled. Let's say for now they are Eastern European and Arabic units.

[Elewyn]

OK, there is about 20western european units (17 to be precious) will the number of eastern or arabic?

And also. As Haegemon said, I hope units can create all of those four formations *edit* of, it belongs to another thread, but it's still about units, like this thread already is too.

And I should not forget.

thank you, Frank Fay

[Frank Fay]

The 20 already revealed are not only Western European. For instance a Steppe Horseman, Camel Rider, Cataphract etc.

All from the new units wont be any Western European.

I can not reveal the number now...sorry.

[Elewyn]

The 20 already revealed are not only Western European. For instance a Steppe Horseman, Camel Rider, Cataphract etc. I wrote "(17 to be precious)", yes, bad word :silly: "to be right" I should have said... Of course I know that...

All from the new units wont be any Western European.

I can not reveal the number now...sorry. :sad:

[Haegemon]

Originally posted by Elewyn
And also. As Haegemon said, I hope units can create all of those four formations *edit* of, it belongs to another thread, but it's still about units, like this thread already is too.


Well, I not specified how many formations, but that's the idea. :)

[Siena]

Originally posted by Frank Fay
The 20 already revealed are not only Western European. For instance a Steppe Horseman, Camel Rider, Cataphract etc.

All from the new units wont be any Western European.

I can not reveal the number now...sorry.

thank you for your replies, Frank Fay.

I also keep my fingers crossed for Lithuanian Cavalry - as special unit :)
I described it a bit in "cavalry" thread.
Basically - their uniqueness was their mobility, discipline, quickness and use of throwing spears, besides the swords.
It was thanks to this cavalry that Lithuanians came to dominate Rus.
It is completely understandable that some stuff cannot be revealed now :)

:cheers:

[Bagpipe]

Yep.
We want Lithuanian cavalry!
We want Lithuanian cavalry!
We want Lithuanian cavalry!
We want Lithuanian cavalry!
We want Lithuanian cavalry!
...

[dearmad]

huh? So much nationalism and ethnocentrism on this board... you Europeans scare me sometimes. ;)

[Bagpipe]

Originally posted by dearmad
you Europeans scare me sometimes. ;)

We hope so:D

[Siautas]

Originally posted by Elewyn
Only the prize of units. When a Lithuanian "king" conqueres whole Rus, he's still a conqueror, I don't think that the prize should lower then. because local people will see you still as conqueror. (Imagine you are Russian. Lithuainans conquere your region first, but after some time they conquere whole Russia. Will your behavior to them change only because of this fact?).


Russians tolerated Lithuanians "kings" because they ruling were as much "democratic" as it could be in that medieval time:cheers: . If the Russian realm was controlled by Lithuanians they were defending the Slavic people from cruel Mongols invaders. Russian lands had some sort autonomy and mostly were providing Lithuanian Grand Duke with army units during conflicts. For example soldiers from Smolensk were well know and valuable. They fight really great in Zalgiris and many other battles.