game abandoned

[Elvain]

its not long ago when EU II, five years old game got a patch..

Read the first messages after release of KoH. There were so many bugs that the patch has to come 3 months after the release (and for many players it was too late.
The game's testing was more than poor.

The diference of 1 vs. more patches between Paradox games and KoH is not that KoH had less bugs but that Sunflowers quited their suport after 1st patch.

I'd say KoH is better game than Paradox games (for me) because the game started a new style of real time strategy games.

And KoH has danm bad AI, even after the patch there are still bugs.

as I said the diference between Paradox and SF is not that their games are more or less buggy when released, but that you can buy Paradox games and be sure they will get support, while when buying SF games, you can expect maximaly one patch fixing the most basic and most annoying bugs (yes, those that should be fixed during testing)

[Lighthope]

Actually, I think a crusade right now is a poor use of resources. Paraworld isn't exactly a hot forum, either. Wait until the game is released, then repost in the Paraworld forum how they treated KoH post-release. People would have already bought the game by the time they come to the forum, but hopefully they'll still be in a period where they can get their money back.

Lighthope

Pearls of Wisdom - Life is not just a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, throughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming: WOW!!....WHAT A RIDE !

--== TIGERS' QUEST - http://www.tigersquest.com
--== THE DOCTOR WHO AUDIO DRAMAS - http://www.dwad.net

[Kausten]

its not long ago when EU II, five years old game got a patch..

Read the first messages after release of KoH. There were so many bugs that the patch has to come 3 months after the release (and for many players it was too late.
The game's testing was more than poor.

The diference of 1 vs. more patches between Paradox games and KoH is not that KoH had less bugs but that Sunflowers quited their suport after 1st patch.

I'd say KoH is better game than Paradox games (for me) because the game started a new style of real time strategy games.

And KoH has danm bad AI, even after the patch there are still bugs.

as I said the diference between Paradox and SF is not that their games are more or less buggy when released, but that you can buy Paradox games and be sure they will get support, while when buying SF games, you can expect maximaly one patch fixing the most basic and most annoying bugs (yes, those that should be fixed during testing)

True EUII might have gotten patches for 5 years but Hoi2 havent and theres no more support for Hoi2 despite some pretty annoying bugs as well as poor AI. And they still sell the game :)

As for KoH and patches.. Its a growing trend in the gaming industry to release the game to soon (money issue probably) and then just apply 1 patch to make sure the game will atleast run somewhat stable.
Its a trend thats come to stay i fear. Mainly because of fanatic players who defend the gaming industry when someone complains.

Also about the AI in KoH. I havent had the time to play alot yet (stupid rl and summer) but the little i have played thou i think the AI act stupid at times i still find the AI more advanced than in Doomsday. If you played Doomsday i think you will agree :)

But anyhow.. Im sure the AI in KoH needs work.
But thats probably a job for some player who like to mod due to SFs lack to do so.

About that btw.. i dont like mods in general as they also tend to "fix" something i dont think needs fixing :)
But if there is a mod around or will be one sometime, that just improves the AI then ill get it for sure :)

[Traveller]

Hah, and when I think of the times when this forum was actually with one of the best support from "officials" I've ever seen. Where Frujin, Frank Fay and Nadine were speaking with us entirely friendly, like normal users. Now they don't speak at all (and FF left the company)... :sad:

[Laudan]

I write today a letter too Frujin,,sometimes Frujin visit this forum,,,I think is the best way that BSS make a patch of his own homepages without the sunflower company...because this give BSS many honor for the future..and second is this good for the BSS projects in future..A good will from the BSS Company...After a release of a patch from BSS everbody see that BSS stand behind his projects...I hope only, not more.

[Traveller]

I'm not sure if BSS could officialy make a patch of KoH, while the rights still belong to SF. And BSS are pretty busy now. Although it would be really great if they could fight off SF and do make a patch, even if it's not absolutely all we want - it would still show that the game isn't totally abandoned and that they do care of their products no matter what or who publishes them!

[Anguille2]

I write today a letter too Frujin,,sometimes Frujin visit this forum,,,I think is the best way that BSS make a patch of his own homepages without the sunflower company...because this give BSS many honor for the future..and second is this good for the BSS projects in future..A good will from the BSS Company...After a release of a patch from BSS everbody see that BSS stand behind his projects...I hope only, not more.

Good luck...and keep us informed :go:

[NappyRob]

This game does not deserve to be abandoned, SF has to launch a patch and a new one expansion!

[Elvain]

:angry:Guys, if all of us start posting in the Paraworld forum, SF will hopefully be pressured to listen to us and to finally release a statement. Come on, if all of us start posting there I think it will work.

We are many, and many is a force

Solus!:angry:
elvain already started a thread and a movement (not for the first time).
and not the last time.

Let's keep them informed.
It seems like SF starts to get angry of this movement. Well, there is a chance for our hope to get some information.

PS: Webmaster. Is this our agresivity the only way how to get anything from Sunflowers AFTER we buy their products?

I know it is not that easy BEFORE they(you) release the game so I ask for other cases (and for other people who may consider buying your products). Just to let the people know what is the only way how to get information from your company. Be very active in complaints all over their forums, especialy there where their potential new customers are

--

In order to keep the structure of the forum clear and readable I'd like you to speak with Elvain about your opinions and cooperate with his effort. That'll keep the forum much cleaner and will allow you to bring your point over more clearly and decisively.

While not being against your expression of opinion I do want to keep the order in this forum so new guests can easily find the information they want. So please don't clutter the forum with unorganized replys in every subsection but try to get your point to the reader in one thread where all information on your effort is stored. That will help your effort and the community in this forum most.

Angryminerwell said.

but the anger should be visible for all SF customers. If there are more activities than just mine, don't let them be forgotten!
Guys, Lets inform the ParaWorld Players the word (http://forum.sunflowers.de/showthread.php?t=7648)

for this purpouse I post the link to the last sympathising thread that has been closed (by Webmaster)
elvain already started a thread and a movement (not for the first time).what is important NOT FOR THE FIRST TIME.
I ask. When I started it for the first time, have I recieved a clear answer?

I will continue and start it again and again untill I get it. For one year I "fight" like this and still nothing. I wonder how long will it last... :scratch:

[Webmaster]

i am NOT SUNFLOWERS. i am just the webmaster in this board.
noone is angry about anything. but as angryminer already pointed out, it doesn't help to spam the board. so streamline it in one thread.

and i am not aggresive. without me there won't be any "movement" anymore.
--
and to point it out clearly:

there won't be anykind of statement until BSS and SF find a final agreement.
details cannot be posted coz of contracts and not to interfere the negotiation process.

so, what can i do? nothing, right!
the frustrating silence is well known here, on both sides. i am just the "spokeman" here. but the messengers are always killed first ;(

[Elvain]

I know and I have nothing against you

here is a place pfor my personal apology to you, the person of Webmaster who I place into complicated position. But it is my duty as someone who have some rights as customer and it is my right to get information about my investition.
And KoH gamers recieved no worthy information for over a year

I didn't say you are agressive. I said you are angry, because your boses are angry, coz untill we cross some line you have no right to stop us.

and this forum is here to keep your customers informed, right?
We are not informed so we inform your potential customers how hard it is to get information.

And that the way is to complain again and again, to make SF angry and feel endangered in their profits and then you have chance to get information.

I am very sad I am forced by your company to use these instruments :sad:
--
so please.

It looks like SF has no interest in Knights of Honor. Sell, or rather give (to express how your company cares this game) your rights to this game to someone else so we could expect better support.

I believe if BSS would have some profit they could "sacrifice" 2 people for 2 weeks to make a patch.

[Webmaster]

you are an honorable person and far more honorable member/leader of the KoH community.
just try to follow a righteous path than i can try to help as spokeman.

[Elvain]

it is hard, as you are here to speak for your employer who keeps disappointing KoH community.

What do you ask? to say positively that it is great and we like this company because we got no information about this product for over a year?
That it is great we got one patch that solved some of bugs that bothered us when we bought the game, but didn't solve many other important problems and bugs that keep bothering us?

It is interest of us who bought this game with the promise of this game's potential and who see it every time we play the game, but we see how this potential is wasted on something that is abandoned in halfway to bugless and challenging game.

I don't play KoH now because there is too many bugs I recognized during playing and the game is no challenge. Also I and all modders see how many potential on features was wasted. I also see how poor was propagation of this game. I can hardly see something positive on SF's post release work.

This game just deserves more than one poor patch. And we deserveto be informed about our money. We payed you with some expectations. And your answer on our money is silence.

[Laudan]

Patch or no patch!

Here we can look for some words from BSS:

COMPANY BACKGROUND, OUR MISSION AND PHILOSOPHY

Established in 2001, Black Sea Studios is intended being a gathering of the most skillful and talented professionals in the game development business in Bulgaria.

As a Bulgarian company Black Sea Studios aims to become a center of gaming industry in whole East and South Europe, attracting young talents and experienced professionals from all over the world. With creative atmosphere and perfect working environment we do hope to achieve free exchanging of ideas in-between our teams with one final goal – creating fun. Our game designs are obeyed to only one rule – they must capture the imagination of the gamers and entertain them.

We are targeting on players’ audience “everyone” by creating high playable, original and most of all fun computer games by means of initial concept, programming, game design, management, animation, graphics (2D, 3D), production, sound FX, music etc. Of course, the most important is the gameplay itself as single and multiplayer experience. At Black Sea Studios we’d like to develop for wide range of platforms like (but not limited to): PC, Macintosh, XBOX and PS2.

We do strongly believe in the support of our fans and on-line communities. Black Sea Studios takes care for all gamers and never ignores the desires, suggestions, dreams and efforts of its fans.

The company’s strategy is based on the idea of producing a whole series of products, including expansion packs, sequels etc. We are striving to keep the gamers’ interest and offer them more and more fun as well as new visions. We are using state of the art technologies for creating completely unique worlds and attractive gameplay, which the players should nothing else but enjoy.
The founder of the company is Vesselin Handjiev. His previous title “Tzar: The Burden of the Crown” brought a lot of innovations and depth to the RTS genre.

[7 May 2001, Sofia, Bulgaria]


And not for a long time say Frujin: We wait only for a green light from Sunflowers.

I ask you all: Why you wait so long for a patch!! Whats wrong with your mangerment ? If i have enough money i buy already the rights from you all. I stand behind the game .I see the power of the game. I see a good multplayergame in future inside .

This is a great game and with a good marketing you can sell this game greatly.

Now we want only listen: No or Yes for a patch.

[Webmaster]

maybe it's not a simple yes or no

[Webmaster]

if we don't care about the game, why would SF publish it in the first place?
and all thinks you mention as bugs aren't bugs. a bug is an coding error, right?
improvements in gameplay aren't bugs!

[Elvain]

the work of BSS should have been better.

But the community asked them to rather delay the release date.

SF had to know that the game isn't ready to be released, though they pushed them to finish the work.

And then, due to very low sales of KoH (due to poor advertising), BSS had no money so they as a new company needed new money so they signed a contract for another game.

If the steps of Sunflowers were better (PR, better support to their partners) BSS wouldn't be forced to rush for a new project coz their profit would be higher and they could do more for this game.

Webbi, I was not refering to the poor AI, I was referring to the bugs that had to be fixed in the first patch, and many of them stay alive untill now.
When testing quests I found that every time when country declares war on new united country, it is England who declares the war. That is a bug I guess.
--
the words that are quoted by Laudan arevery true.

From all I have seen BSS was open to our suggestions, they even talked with us why do they prefere some features instead of other..

Unfortunately everything indicates that most of bad things lies on Sunflowers.

I don't like to see the things black-white and I know they definitely are not. But from everything what is visible it looks like BSS is far less guilty on the situation.

And don't tell me that Sunflowers as investor signed a contract which gives the other side any big advantage over them. It rather seems that the contract was very disadvantageous towards BSS (they were step by step forced to release unfinished work, then they were allowed to give only one patch, their game was robbed by poor propagation and finaly they didn't get greenlight from Sunflowers for further support - yes, they probably asked for money that SF didn't want to pay)

[hawk_knight]

- yes, they probably asked for money that SF didn't want to pay)



:scratch: this could be true if they have money problem with each other

[Nezumi]

It's definitely not a yes/no answer as producing a commercial game patch is a complicated procedure. One or more of a range of events happened here to delay and/or cancel a second patch:

1) BSS is short on capital.
If this is the case, their focus would almost immediately have been on a new, revenue-generating project. Patches don't make money (not this late after release, anyway) and the profit margin on commercial games can be pretty slim given the immense amount of resources required to make a game. This is especially the case for new developers. And that is all without even mentioning the importance of good marketing (or the lack of it)...

2) Resource constraints.
Making a patch isn't simple. The developer needs to identify issues to fix, fix them, test them (thoroughly!) and then hope that the patch doesn't cause new issues. If a patch fails a testing phase, it goes back to the beginning of the patch cycle. This is normal, and no patch would ever be released without at least some full cycles. It may be that BSS actually did try to make a second patch but ran short of time/money after a few cycles and had to abandon it.

3) Patch was too ambitious.
Relating to 2), perhaps BSS tried to do too much in the second patch (ie, improve AI, finish events, remove that stupid limit on unit types, etc). This would have increased the resources needed for fixing issues and the likelihood of finding problems in the testing phase, resetting the cycle.

4) BSS doesn't care about their products.
I would say this is unlikely, but it's possible. A new development house, if they're smart, would want to give support above and beyond what is expected for their early titles to build up a good reputation. But if they're not smart...

What I would like confirmed is which factors prevented the patch. As most of them would be embarrassing for BSS, however, the chance of seeing an official word is... around nil.

A rift between BSS & Sunflowers seems to me an impossible factor for patch release, as there is no reason why the terms and conditions of their contract would prevent BSS from putting out a patch that benefits both companies. That the arrangement caused the two companies to release an unfinished game is quite obvious to any modder (events, anyone?) or player (the unmodified game is not challenging). It's a seperate issue but what the heck, I'll go on a tangent :P

Unfortunately, releasing unfinished games is a widespread industry practice. I'm reminded of the release of HoMM IV, a series that had by that revision garnered a large reputation. Yet it was published without multiplayer (which was advertised on the box and took over a month to include via a patch) and, even more insultingly, with the HoMM III AI! Once players found out the developer hadn't even bothered to code an AI, the official response was something like: "yeah, so?" That game was never even planned to be finished.

The KoH AI feels like that. A stupid AI that can't be relied on to consistently present a challenge. As the main game is single-player only, the AI is the base game, not an optional upgrade. It's a shame when the rush to get some profit, any profit, destroys the opportunity to make a finished product. It's also unethical, not that publishers know what that means.

-Brett

[Elvain]

1) this is very possible.
But Sunflowers are investor in this project, not BSS. It is said that BSS were ready to make a new patch, but Sunflowers quited it. When that happened, BSS was forced to search for capital somewhere else = they started a new project, probably with other partner which won't betray them as SF did

2) The problems are already identified by modders and the community. They will only need us to tell them, as we already once did and we can just enlarge the list.
What they need are not more than about 2 people to work on it one week to fix it all and then test it.
As a modder of this game, if having 8 hours a day and knowing where is what, I - as programming analphabet would be able to fix it in two weeks, I believe BSS have better guys.

4) Very unlikely, almost zero possibility. I don't want to repeat myself, but I must. It was said that community asked for the patch and BSS clearely declared they are ready for it, they have solved step 2, they just need the greenlight (and perhaps money) from the Producer=Sunflowers. That denies the possibility of BSS not being smart and not caring for their products.

I would rather see here a strategy of Sunflowers. Make them run out of money capital and then buy this company with nice persúective :scratch:

to the rest of the post. I don't believe that BSS are that stupid that they wanted to release unfinished game. As they weren't the investor, they most likely wanted to finnish the work to be good. Unfortunately in the game scripts there is visible that many good things are abandoned in halfway so undone, and many others are done, but unfinished too.

Judging by myself, when I am to release my first product I wouldn't rush it, but I would try to make it as good as possible.

Though, this is not the first support flaw of Sunflowers. Just ask people who bought ANNO series. They were provided as minimal support as we (KoH community).
So in behind I see 2 problems:

A) Sunflowers proves themselves as a company that doesn't support their games. This lack of will to support is much less in case of games that are developed by east european studios that are short of money. Perhaps they say themselves: Come on and eat them

B) BSS as starting developing studio is in need of money. They signed with probably strong German investor. But their partner who was responsible for all except development itself failed in all ways (propagation!, testing, support)
The only positives of SF are that they opened this forums what brought many good suggestions to the game and that they agreed to the first patch (which had to come out very soon due to poor testing (responsibility of SF)
second patch was abandoned by SF coz the game had low sales.
But everyone who came across this game said it was fenomenal game which is about to become a classic. How is it possible that such game had low sales? Nobody knew about it=poor PS=responsibility of Sunflowers.

So, where is the problem? is it on BSS? no, mostly it is SF