My suggestion for new units.

[Finellach]

Originally posted by Elewyn
Frujin and Nike too. And did you see that ALMOST there? Everybody who participated this topic in this thread was aggainst (not everybody who participated on this thread!)

Frujin and Nike added info about Bulgarians. No one else participated except you and Gorgoroth.

Originally posted by Elewyn
But I want to stop this silly argue. Magyars have Finno-Ugric origin and trouugh theyr journey got some Turkic, Slavic and who knows waht elses influence... and you? think yourself whatever you want :yawn:

You want to stop this argument? Well that will be the first...:rofl:
Magyars have Turkish origins, they assimilated Finno-Ugric tribes and Slavs which produced modern Hungarian nation which has name of Turkish origin, speaks Finno-Ugric language and has large majority Slavic population. :go:

Originally posted by Gorgoroth
Finellach....frankly Im a little sick and tired of your ignorance

And I am also tired of your and Elewyns ignorrance as well.

[Gorgoroth]

We were posting in the same time, read my previous post Finellach. :)

I think you should give up posting these nonsense things once and for all if you take my advice.
Magyars were turks who assimilated the finno ugric tribes?!??!!
JESUS CHRIST Now this is the most ignorant post of yours so far, carry on.
:D

[Elewyn]

Originally posted by Frujin
Very interesting discussion. :) Perhaps in the distant future we can consider a game set in the times of the Great Migration. :)

My humble opinion: Magyars were Finno-Ugric tribe, non-Turkic in origin, which had close contacts with Turkic tribes in the Asiatic steppes. There were nothing in common between Bulgars and Magyars. Bulgars are directly descending from the Huns. It is not clear yet for the historians if they had a Turkic origin or not. It is only proven they had white skin color and were relatively high above teh average for the period.

[Finellach]

Of course and your constant ad hominem attacks show that you have absolutly no arguments to back up your statements.

Now you offered absolutly no proofs for your theory nort there are any. Also you didn't elaborated why would the theory I am advocating is "ignorrant" since this theory is present far longer than Finno-Ugric theory based on language and for good reasons.

I suggest you read a few esseys on the subject on the matter.

[Elewyn]

I doubt any proof will change your mind, so why bother

[Fizzil]

Hmm why are mamelukes infantry?

[Gorgoroth]

Finellach we should close this discussion, it is pointless, that is for sure.
You don't know anything in this topic, trust me, I can say this after Ive seen your 'IMO' posts. :p
You propably read some ignorant things on the internet, and you dont know anything about the modern day research in this topic.
:angel:

[Finellach]

Originally posted by Elewyn
I doubt any proof will change your mind, so why bother

Well we will never know since you posted none.
I must say I don't know whats your problem. Recently you became extremly rude.
Originally posted by Elewyn
Finellach we should close this discussion, it is pointless, that is for sure.
You don't know anything in this topic, trust me, I can say this after Ive seen your 'IMO' posts.
You propably read some ignorant things on the internet, and you dont know anything about the modern day research in this topic.

Gorgoroth you are extremly small minded, ignorrant and rude person(I would say a child). I suggest you find some education and manners...

[Gorgoroth]

Originally posted by Finellach
Gorgoroth you are extremly small minded, ignorrant and rude person(I would say a child). I suggest you find some education and manners...


Christ...I wont say anything. :p

[Finellach]

:yawn:

[Elewyn]

Originally posted by Fizzil
Hmm why are mamelukes infantry? Ultimately some on-topic post :hello:

The reason is probably the same like why Templars and Teutonic knights are infantry. :(
Originally posted by Finellach
Well we will never know since you posted none.
I must say I don't know whats your problem. Recently you became extremly rude.


Gorgoroth you are extremly small minded, ignorrant and rude person(I would say a child). I suggest you find some education and manners... so, let's read. I searched with google and here are all of articles and links where Magyar's origin(times before Arpád) is discussed (I searched only first 3pages)
here they are:
http://www.geocities.com/egfrothos/magyars/magyars.html
http://www.hungarian-history.hu/lib/hunspir/hsp05.htm
http://campus.northpark.edu/history/WebChron/EastEurope/Magyars.html
http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/M/Magyars.asp
http://www.bartleby.com/65/ma/Magyars.html
http://history.boisestate.edu/westciv/10thc/02.htm
http://econc10.bu.edu/economic_systems/natidentity/ee/hungary/magyars2.htm
http://www.gotohungary.com/history/history.shtml
http://8.1911encyclopedia.org/M/MA/MAGYARS.htm
http://concise.britannica.com/ebc/article?eu=396287
http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/society/A0831192.html
http://groups.msn.com/AncientWisdomCulturesPeople/magyars.msnw
http://www.hunmagyar.org/hungary/history/magyar.htm
http://hungaria.org/hal/hungary/index.php?halid=14&menuid=324 -I like especially this
http://education.yahoo.com/reference/encyclopedia/entry?id=29518
http://www.currentmiddleages.org/khalja/magyars.php
http://www.idg.hu/expo/hosok_tere/gero/Magyars.html
http://www.campusprogram.com/reference/en/wikipedia/m/ma/magyars.html


others are like this one:
http://college.hmco.com/history/readerscomp/mil/html/mh_031500_magyars.htm

I hope it's enough for you. I know they are not essays written by historicians, but I don't wanna waste more of my time in this senseless issue.

[Rnett]

Me too :yawn:

[Gorgoroth]

The internet is full with fake informations and with lot of hypothesis, some say that the origin of the Magyars are still a mystery, but after the anthropological / genetical / languistic research, we can say that the origins are Finno Ugric, that is accepted among the scientists.

http://hungaria.org/hal/hungary/index.php?halid=14&menuid=324 -> this is really close to the truth indeed. Good writing. :)

But yup, end this topic, I dont think that its our job to enlighten Finellach. :D

[Finellach]

I have Google too you know. ;)
Most of these repeat the same theory one which Gorgoroth is reapeting like a parrot and you with him.
Thats actually a paradox. The thing is that this theory was developed in late 19th century to discredit Hungarians and their ancestry through Magyars proving that they are Finno-Ugric non Indo-European "Asian" primitive barbarian invaders into "civilized" (Indo-)Europe. This however is not true. There is strong connection between Hunnic, Avar, Magyar, Turkish and several other languages who all belog to the same group of Uralo-Altaic group. Magyars were a confederation of more than few tribes(they are not one tribe like stated wrongly by Gorgoroth) who were quite advanced and even far beyond Western societies at that time by almost every factor from religion to economy. Instead of being proud of this Gorgoroth disputes this theory and calls it ignorrant offending me also while hes at it...really nice...

I suggest reading some serious esseys and works on the matter not some quasi theories and ideological nationalistic ignorrant crap.
This all reminds me on the small minded countrymen of mine who have a hard time accepting that Croats are actually not purely Slavic, in fact not even close. Thats how deep the brainwashing goes...

Read this and learn something new...
http://www.hunmagyar.org/hungary/history/controve.htm

[Elewyn]

Some things seem little strange to me.

One theory (Finno-Ungrian) is blamed for using mainly linguistical basement and just next is usimng mainly those arguments to proove it's correctness.

Sumerian theory has also some illogical issues. All tribes and nations were moving from central asia to climatically better area of Mesopotamia (Turkic tribes, tribes which destroyed Babylonia etc.), but ancestors of Magyars moved from south of Caucasus to north to steppes of central Asia and eastern Europe :silly:

Then I found really funny idea of planned settlement of Carpathian basin by Magyars. I don't say they were primitive (nomadic way of life requires as much intelligence as agricultural, maybe more), but I must ask, were they able to plan so massive action of "settlement"? they were nomads and it took them ages to become farmers in carpathian basin, because they have no steppes around for nomadic way of life, so please don't speak about planned settlement.

Also their relatives in Carpathian Basin, where Slavs and Germans were not the main population. It is possible, I have almost nothing aggainst it, but why on earth today Hungarians are mostly Slavs by genotype when Slavs were not main population there before arrival of Magyars?

"An increasingly divisive issue among Hungarians is that of the role of Western political and religious influence in the formation of the Hungarian state. One side claims that the adoption of the European feudal political system and of Western Christianism resulting in Hungary's integration to the West was of "great cultural benefit" and represented a "higher level of civilization" compared to the previous tribal federation of the "pagan" Magyars. The opposing view holds that the forced integration to the West had highly detrimental consequences for Hungary, and that the imposition of Christianism and of the feudal system served foreign interests hostile to Hungary. This view also holds that Árpád was the founder of the Hungarian state, and not king István who is seen as the instrument of a foreign-backed coup which led to a radical change in the political and ideological orientation of Hungary." hahaha.
It was impossible to live by nomadic way of life in Carpathian basin when it was so small area for nomads-they need to "raid" to neighbouring lands and since their raids were less and less successfull, it was the beggining of their religious values, because their leaders, keepers of treasury, must extend the treasury to prove gods' good will. Since their gods turn backs to them(unsuccessfull reids)their nomadic society came to crisis and was forced(by internal preasure) to change system and become farmers instead of nomads. It is aggainst principles of nomadic life to pla settlement. And one another point aggainst. If they really planed agricultural settlement of Carpathian Basin in the name of Security of that region (what is very unlikely), why they continued in their raids for next more than 50years-two generations? You know, if they once planned settlement why the generation which planed it didn't realized it?

They might tried to restore rule of Huns in Carpathian basin and eastern Europe like Germanic tribes wanted to restore Roman Empire, but it is not indication of their relations to them.
This theory blames Finno-Ugric theory for chauvinism, but it seems far more chauvinistic to me. Reasons i wrote above told nothing about "barbarism" of nomads in comparison to "high culture" of Germans and Indo-Europeans.
"Your" theory gives no satisfactory explanation of language similarities to Finno-Urgic tribes which (as far as I know) no Bulgaric or Hunnic tribes have. That means there must be some relations to those tribes, at least I think.

Your theory can be blamed for many issues it uses against Finno-Ugric theory. It was not so decisive true. But thanks that you gave me your source. I'm not so well educated in this problem to dispute about genetical or wordpower or gramatical percentage-similarities, but your theory proved to me that it is same or more chauvinistic (but in anti-Indo-European direction) than Finno-Ugric theory which was accused of chauvinism(I found no shame on nomads in Finno-Ugric theory, how is it possible?). It is like some political program of Hunno-Hungarian nationalistic group, based on some historical theory saying that Magyars were greatest civilisation of those times. If they were, why they came to Carpathian basin, where was no way out? Why Rhomaioi didn't came to higher civilisated Magyars? (everybody knows that higher agricultural culture is throughout whole history great challenge for all nomadic cultures to be followed. Reason is simple-In the best climatical condition there is best chance to build up high civilisation and all cultures around, which had not the chance, are trying to replace that civilisation, especially when they have some preassure-climatical or military-in their back)

I am really sorry to all who expected some relevant on-topic ideas, but get bored by this almost pointless argue. I would like to ask all who participated on this argue to do the same apologize and return back on-topic. Thanks

PS:funny that Croatian guy is propagating Hungarian nationalistic theory of superior power of Magyars and Hungarians :D Their story of Lechfeld:
"Western and official Hungarian historiography generally tend to attach great importance to this event, its significance seems to have been exaggerated, as it did not destroy Hungary's major power status, nor did it stop the Hungarian military strikes (this is closely paralleled by the assertion that Atilla was defeated at the Catalaunic fields in 451, even though the following year he was able to reach Rome with his armies). The Hungarian military strikes did stop eventually, but for other reasons. It seems that the Germans gave up the idea of conquering Hungary by direct military means as Hungary was too strong for this at the time, and it appears that other means were used." Lechfeld was last and main in line of defeats of Magyars, not only from Germans, but also Byzantines. I also see no "Magyar support to powers which might weakenthe power of Germans-they were just "organizing" raids aggainst all neighbours where it was possible-to Moravia, Byzantium, Bavaria, however Byzantium and Slavs from Bohemian lands were their potential allies aggainst Germans.

It's useless to call here aggainst lies told in essay you linked, Finellach, because some kind of lieis almost on every link (I know about this problem a little-far more than about genetical ethnical etc. relations)-Magyars were in political isolation-their original European ally-Bulgarians were in war with Byzantium and they have no alternative than became christians and farmers, because it was suicide to stay nomads when all neighburs are agricultural societies strong enough to defend themselves from annual raids.

Here is example of regular lie:
"they(Hungarians) were quite familiar with agriculture even before settling in the Carpathian Basin where they were capable of establishing a state 1100 years ago". If this is true, so I ask why most of hungarian agricultural terms are of slavic origin? when they were qite familliar with agriculture, they should have had some own agricultural terms, didn't they?

And many more similar. Sorry, Finellach, I must laugh on this:D :D
:cheers: thanks. I had great fun tonight! :go:
But seriously. When there are evident lies about things I know, you can't ask me to believe to that essay in cases I don't know much-origin of Masgyars.

[Khan Krum]

I raise my hat to you mates for the great posts. Sorry I've not been able to read all of them, and I post about those on the first page of the thread.

Now I presume everyone is satisfied as you guys got your units ;) Though with this diversity it might be hard to balance the game.
Now about my Bulgaria (I know I have already whined for like forever :o ) but Boyars if available, should also have a sword IMO as the Russian and Bulgarian cavalry were renowned their sword skills. And IMO spear only for each mounted units would make them more vulnerable after the charge. Still it's nice to see the troops from the Steppe returning, but as I pointed out they should be available for only Early Bulgaria and Magyar states as units on production, and later on be available only as mercenaries. The good point is that there was not only the Mongol horsemen that were a threat to East Europe, but tribes as Tatars ( still they are close to Mongols), Avars (early), Hazars (later) and Pechenegs (and many more), so their presence is welcomed by me.

And as I mentioned earlier you get to appreciate what Bulgaria has done for Europe, slowing down Mongol and Turkish invasions ;)

[Gorgoroth]

Originally posted by Finellach
I have Google too you know. ;)
Most of these repeat the same theory one which Gorgoroth is reapeting like a parrot and you with him.
Thats actually a paradox. The thing is that this theory was developed in late 19th century to discredit Hungarians and their ancestry through Magyars proving that they are Finno-Ugric non Indo-European "Asian" primitive barbarian invaders into "civilized" (Indo-)Europe. This however is not true. There is strong connection between Hunnic, Avar, Magyar, Turkish and several other languages who all belog to the same group of Uralo-Altaic group. Magyars were a confederation of more than few tribes(they are not one tribe like stated wrongly by Gorgoroth) who were quite advanced and even far beyond Western societies at that time by almost every factor from religion to economy. Instead of being proud of this Gorgoroth disputes this theory and calls it ignorrant offending me also while hes at it...really nice...

I suggest reading some serious esseys and works on the matter not some quasi theories and ideological nationalistic ignorrant crap.
This all reminds me on the small minded countrymen of mine who have a hard time accepting that Croats are actually not purely Slavic, in fact not even close. Thats how deep the brainwashing goes...

Read this and learn something new...
http://www.hunmagyar.org/hungary/history/controve.htm


This is an absolutely dismissed and dropped theory now, Finellach. YOU should learn more about the topic, if you are really interested.
What you can read there is a work of Armin Vambery a Hungarian traveller. He came up with this theory, and it is totally refused now. There are no evidence for it, it is just mere speculation. Guess why did he researched these things in the middle ages? Because of our turkish words. Funny isnt it? :D

On the other hand, the Finno Ugric theory is what accepted, and there are archeological/anatomial evidence for that. "Lot" of ancient magyar burial places was inspected in every way. :)

Your sentences are full with stupidity. Example: a turkish!! tribe assimilated the Finno Ugric tribes. This is not even ignorance, this is stupidity, sorry but I have to say this. You are builiding your opinion on an old and dropped theory made by a hungarian traveller. You call this research?
:rolleyes:

[Gorgoroth]

Originally posted by Elewyn
Also their relatives in Carpathian Basin, where Slavs and Germans were not the main population. It is possible, I have almost nothing aggainst it, but why on earth today Hungarians are mostly Slavs by genotype when Slavs were not main population there before arrival of Magyars?


This is true. The current genetical research on this topic shows, that the genetical model of the present population of Hungary is Slavish, and Germanic.
There is no such thing like Magyar now. Genetically The closest "pure relatives" to the ancient Magyars are the Szekelys.

Btw nice essey Elewyn. :D

[timurlenk]

stop it!


what the goal of this discussion? it cant be exchanging opninions, sources, theories, whatever.


its just a lame excuse to call each other ignorant, stupid, non-literated, wrong-literated. :sad:


its annoying to read throug all this posts, seeking for on topic statements :angry:

[Gorgoroth]

Yeah, I posted this 10 replies ago. :)
It is pointless to argue with Finellach.

Lets close this 'discussion' here, we can continue it via private messaging if we want.
However this little arguing was good for something at least. This showed to the people, that it is not wise to post nonsense, ignorant things and insane theories. :o
Yes everyone must have an own opinion, but its more wise to keep it for themselves, especially in cases like this. :angel: