My suggestion for new units.

[Finellach]

After the initial enthusiasm I though a bit about the new announced units and this are my thoughts.

Well we all know by now that there are 25 new units, but what is a surprise to me is that most of these are the variation on the same due to localization.

IMO units like Desert Spearmen, Desert Cavalry, Mongolian Cavalry, Desert Archers Turkic Archers and Swordsmen, Crusader Crossbowmen and Infanty should all be removed. You can easily achieve the same thing which is localization and unique looks by making them dependant on the place where are they produced. For example we already know that different cultures will have different buildings thus I don't see why couldn't it be posibble to make these different cultures producing different types of Swordsmen which would be same as any other swordsemen but different by appearance as I believe they will be anyway.

I mean Desert Spearmen are not different except regular Spearmen except by clothes nor I don't see how would they be, Desert Cavalry the same thing from Light Cavalry. Mongolian Cavalry from Steppe Horsemen. Steppe Horsemen is the best name and honestly Mongolians were not so different by appearance from other nomad tribes that lived in steppes and the only thing that made Mongolians special were vast numbers they plunged into Europe. Desert and Turkic Archers also IMO can't be special and different than regular Archers except by clothes. The same with Turkic Swordsmen. In fact Turkic Swordsmen would be more similar to Saracens, but basiclly they wouldn't be much different than regular European Swordsmen.

Crusaders on the other hand have too many units. It would be best if there is only one unique Crusader unit which would be some medium cavalry that would be available in defeated Muslim lands and Catholic kingdoms.

Now other units like Heavy Swordsmen and Heavy Crossbowmen are IMO totally confusing. They are totally unesccesary and would be better if there would be some more unique units like Macemen and Slingers.

Also I don't see how would these Slavonic units differentiate from other units. In first place I mean Slavonic Bowmen from regular Archers and Slavonic Axmen from regular Axmen. And Bowmen...how is it different than normal Archer? It the same thing with the different name!

There is also a question of Roman Infantry and Pronoias. First unit is totally unkonwn to me and I have no idea what it should be. Pronoia were type of "feudalists" in Byznatium and Byznatium already has one mounted units why another?
Why not some type of Baltic cavalry? I mean there are people asking for it.

I just hope we can have some explanation soon. :(

In any case I would make the units like this:

Units Availability

Swordsmen - Everwhere
Men-at-Arms - Europe(mostly West, but in East also)
Templars - France, Germany, Italy
Teutonic Knights - Germany, Baltics, Poland
Highlanders - Scotland and England
Normans - France, Italy, England
Saracens - Spain, Africa
Mameluks(Mamluks) - Africa and Middle East
Axemen - Everywhere
Vikings - Baltics, Scandinavia, Denmark
Varangians - Russia, Ukraine
Spearmen - Everywhere
Halbrediers - Swiss, Italy, Big Towns of West Europe
Royal (Town) Guards - Every Town
Jinetes - Spain and Portugal
Akyndji (Akinji) - Africa and Middle East
Horse Archers - Everywhere, but mostly in East Europe
Steppe Horsemen - Hungary, Bulgaria, Russia and Asian Steppes
Light Cavalry - Everywhere
Hobilars - Ireland, England
Cataphracts - Byznatium and Balkans
Feudal Knights - West Europe
Boyars - Russia and Balkans
Camel Riders - Africa
Ghulams (Ghulam Cavalry) - Middle East
Spahias (Siphas) - Turkey, Middle East
Crusaders - Catholic Kingdoms
Archers - Everywhere
Crossbowmen - Italy, Swiss, Germany, Baltics
Longbowmen - Wales, England, Ireland
Janissary - Turkey, Middle East
Pronoia - Byzantium

I also have an idea for these "new" units:

Slingers - Middle East and Africa
Macemen - Everywhere, but mostly West Europe
Lancers (Baltic Cavalry) - Baltics

I am open to other ideas and critics.

[Elewyn]

Dear Finellach. Few of ideas are really great and I agree with them, but not with all. Sorry that I'm gonna pointa out mostly the critics. 1. IMO units like Desert Spearmen, Desert Cavalry, Mongolian Cavalry, Desert Archers Turkic Archers and Swordsmen, Crusader Crossbowmen and Infanty should all be removed. You can easily achieve the same thing which is localization and unique looks by making them dependant on the place where are they produced.
2. For example we already know that different cultures will have different buildings thus I don't see why couldn't it be posibble to make these different cultures producing different types of Swordsmen which would be same as any other swordsemen but different by appearance as I believe they will be anyway.
2. I like your example, so I'll start with it. It is really great, but I am affraid it's too late. I don't know anything about programming, but IMO it will require little diferent engine and there is also one other problem. We know units like Templars etc. depend on more things than culture-in France buildings will always look like in France, but religion of ruler may change. So what if Fatimids convert to catholicism? they will have arabian buildings, arabian origin, but should produce crusader units instead of mameluks :)
1. I don't agree with everything, especially mongolian cavalry. Desert units should have some bonusses in desert or whole Asian and African parts of the map.
Mongolian cavalry is close to middle eastern nomadic units, but not at all. IMO beter is to remove both steppe units and replace one by balts cavalry and second by some kind of Magyar/Avarian cavalry for Carpathian basin (Hungary, non-coastal Croatia, Bosnia etc.)areas south of caucasus are special just now so there is no need to have so wide available unit like steppe cavalry is(whan I suggested it before it was when expecting no more than 5 new units).
I also agree with having crusader units. The only difference to ordinary european men-at-arms and crosbowmen will be their availability in non European lands, if somebody don't like three crusader units, let's call them like "crusader crosbowmen" (with some little diferent skills than Helvetian ones), then turcopoles(I woul like to see them as cavalry, but infantry will be better now) and crusader cavalry as "medium" cavalry armoured like Templars or Normans.

Now other units like Heavy Swordsmen and Heavy Crossbowmen are IMO totally confusing. They are totally unesccesary and would be better if there would be some more unique units like Macemen and Slingers.Here I agree now, but I must say we don't know them yet. I can imagine heavy crosbowmen as hissites, armoured by chainmail and having large and heavy pavise shield, or something like arbalests in AoK. But, honestly, I have no idea for heavy swordsmen since we have men-at arms and "light" swordsmen until now.
Macemen is solution IMO, also because many people asked for them.
Also I don't see how would these Slavonic units differentiate from other units. In first place I mean Slavonic Bowmen from regular Archers and Slavonic Axmen from regular Axmen. And Bowmen...how is it different than normal Archer? It the same thing with the different name!Here I see diference between Slavonic axemen and bowmen. (Still I hope it's little mistake and it mean Slavic-for all Slavs- and not Slavonic-from Slavonia,part of Cratia only). Axemen (available in Poland, Bohemia, Croatia, Bosnia and Serbia) may have heavy, maybe two-handed axe and round shield, looking more barbarian than "civilisated" ordinary axemen with light axe and maybe shield. Varangians should be better armoured and may also have lance, spear or javelin.
On the other hand bowmen are not so diferent from ordinary archers already shown. If yes, I'm not aggainst it, but I hope they will differ in moore than just a look.

Then Roman infantry is great question for all of us and I'm really curious what we'll see. I will apreciate some kind of early byzantine swordsmen with heavy chainmail, some kind of infantry cataphracts :)
Then if pronoias, then as medium byzantine cavalry alongside to cataphracts, but then I cry with a loud voice for the same unit for the West.

so here my little changes in Finellach's list
Units Availability

Peasants - Everywhere
Swordsmen - Everwhere
Men-at-Arms - Europe(where no „specials“ are)
Templars – France, west Germany, Rome
Teutonic Knights - Baltics (except Lithuania), Pomerania, Silesia and Moravia, most of Germany+Friesland
Highlanders – Scotland, northern England
Normans – Normandy, sout England, South Italy, Sicily and Sardiny
Saracens – Africa
Roman infantry – Asia minor and south Balkans
Mameluks(Mamluks) - East northern Africa, Palestine and Syria
Crusader infantry/Turcopoles – muslim areas for christians

Axemen - Everywhere except where Varangians, Vikings and Slavic axemen are
Vikings - Baltics, Scandinavia, Denmark
Varangians - Russia, Ukraine
Slavic Axemen - Poland, Bohemia+Moravia, Croatia, Bosnia, Serbia

Spearmen – almost Everywhere
Halbrediers – Swiss, Italy and biggest western cities
Royal (Town) Guards – Every town
Jinetes - Spain and Portugal
Desert or "Beduin" spearmen - Africa
Akindji (Akinji) - Middle East

Horse Archers - Everywhere, exept where Mongols and Steppe horsemen are
Mongolian cavalry - South Russia east of Kiev
Steppe Horsemen - Hungary, Bulgaria, Middle east

Light Cavalry - Everywhere
Hobilars - Ireland, England (in case of non-existence of Balt cav. Also in Baltic lands)
Cataphracts - south Balkans, Asia minor, Armenia, Cyprus, Crete and Apulia
Feudal Knights – West and Central Europe
Boyars - Russia and Bulgaria
Camel Riders – Africa
Ghulams (Ghulam Cavalry) - Middle East(same like akindji)
Spahias (Siphas) - muslim kingdoms in Europe
Turcopole/Crusader cavalry - christian Kingdoms in muslim lands

Archers - almost Everywhere(except where "special ranged units" are)
Crossbowmen - Italy, Swiss, Baltics
Longbowmen - Wales, England, Ireland
Janissary - Asia Minor, Middle East, for Ottomans also in Balkans
Heavy crosbowmen - Bohemia, Moravia, Silesia
Slavic bowmen – Russia, Poland, north and west Balkans
Desert archers – Africa

I also agree with idea of adding these "new" units:
Slingers - Middle East and Africa
Macemen - Everywhere, but mostly West Europe
Javelin cavalry (Baltic Cavalry) – Baltics
European medium cavalry – Scotland, South Spain, Scandinavia, Finland

Removed units:
Turkic swordsmen
Pronoias
Desert cavalry
Steppe horsemen
bowmen
heavy archers
Turkic archers

total 45 units

[Siena]

nice work, Elewyn and Finelach :cheers:

I would not put Vikings in Lithuania, nor Prussia. Not sure about Livonia.

Also - "Slavonic" - is not the same as "Slovenian"...
"Slavonic" - seems more like "Slavic"

And "Baltic Cavalry" better renamed to "Balt Cavalry"

(or - if allowing some some space for dreams - "Lithuanian Cavalry" :p ;) )

[timurlenk]

i mostly agree with henrik :cheers:

IMO units like Desert Spearmen, Desert Cavalry, Mongolian Cavalry, Desert Archers Turkic Archers and Swordsmen, Crusader Crossbowmen and Infanty should all be removed. You can easily achieve the same thing which is localization and unique looks by making them dependant on the place where are they produced. For example we already know that different cultures will have different buildings thus I don't see why couldn't it be posibble to make these different cultures producing different types of Swordsmen which would be same as any other swordsemen but different by appearance as I believe they will be anyway.


yes. i think localization dependig on the province the units are built, will do it better.
btw, the name crusader-"unit" indicates units for a crusade, not units of a christian realm in the holy land!




Now other units like Heavy Swordsmen and Heavy Crossbowmen are IMO totally confusing. They are totally unesccesary and would be better if there would be some more unique units like Macemen and Slingers.

yop. dont need light, medium, heavy. unique is better.


so here is "my" units showcase:

Pesants
Swordsmen
Men at Arms
Templars
Highlander
Normans
Teutonic Knights
Saracens
Mameluks (new)


Light Cavalry
Hobilars
Cataphracts
Feudal Knights
Boyars
Camel Riders
Steppe Horsemen (new)
Ghulam cavalry (new)
Crusader Cavalry (new)
Knight and Knights' Own Guards
King


Axemen (new)
Slavonic Axemen (new)
Vikings
Varangian (new)


Horse Archers
Mongolian Cavalry


Spearmen
Halberdiers
Town Guards
Jinetes (new)
Akyndji (new) .............................mounted!


Archers
Crossbowmen
Longbowmen
Janissary
Slavonic Bowmen (new)



away with:

Roman Infantry (new)
Heavy Swordsmen (new)
Turkic Swordsmen (new)
Crusader Infantry (new)


Pronoia (new)
Desert cavalry (new)
Spahias (new)


Steppe Cavalry (new)


Desert Spearman (new)

Desert Archer (new)
Bowmen (new)
Heavy Crossbowmen (new)
Heavy Archers (new)
Turkic Archers (new)
Crusader Crossbowmen (new)



instead add:

Slingers
Macemen
Balt Cavalry / Horsemen



summa summarum 39 units. thats more than enough.

[timurlenk]

uuuuh, i almost forgot


add siege tower!

[Elewyn]

I think that all desert units (except cavalry-there already are Camel riders) may have some diferent skills than others have, so then let them live.

If there is a possibility to have more units, I'm far from being aggainst pavise(heavy) crossbowmen.

Crusader units may be changed to Turcopole what will make better sense-original from ME, fighting for crusaders, except crosbowmen, they can be... :scratch: "Genoese"? they supported crusaders by crossbowmen and sailors, so?

I think those substitute unit like Spahias should be let live. Imagine you're muslim and you capture Provence. You then would have possibility only for light cavalry there (I doubt feudal knights would fight for non-believers).

You need some substitution when capturing province with diferent religion.
So, christian substitute units:
turcopole: cavalry and infantry, Genoese or crusader crossbowmen

muslim substitute units:
spahias(cavalry), ordinary european units (men-at-arms, archers) or saracens and janissary

[Finellach]

Well first I would like to state that my "availability" was more general and not so detailed. I did that on purpose. I am quite aware that Normans were only in Normandy, Sicily and Boyars were only in Bulgaria in Balkans etc. ;)

Second I would disagree with you on Mongolian Cavalry. You see Mongolian Cavalry was nothing different than any other Steppe Horsemen. They carried bows and swords, had light armor and were fat and manuvarable cavalry. Even their appearance was strikingly similar. Also not all Mongolian Cavalry were Mongolians. Also why have I said there should be Steppe Horsemen in Bulgaria and Hungary? Well the obvious reason is that the original Magyars and Avars and even Bulgarians were of asiatic ancestry and were related to later Mongolians.

I don't see however what would Steppe Horsemen do in Croatia. They would have no place there IMO.

[Drake Maethor]

localization is a GREAT idea...
Peasants cannot look the same anywhere... Or men at arms...
Why all "common units" has to look like western Europeans???

How many of you played Rise of Nations??? If no one then download a demo and find an excellent example of localization.

That's a very easy thing to code. Just some more work for the Graphics lads and lasses...

[Elewyn]

@Finellach. I think you are right about Mongolians, but whan having such number of new units I'm not aggainst their diversity. Magyars, Bulgarians and Mongols came in different times, so they can represent the threaten in certain time, fact is that armour and armament of those nomads didn't change so much those times(not as much as "european" amrour changed during the same time). IMO Mongoliand shuld be clearly genuine nomads representing most of nomadic tribes and can be called how the devs will like it (we have Vikings throughout whole middle ages, why not mongols?) and other steppe cavalrymen like Magyars may be somewhere halfway from nomads to knights of agricultural nations. somewhere between Mongols and Cataphracts by armour, but still with bows..
I'm sorry for placing them to Slavonia ;)

@Drake Maethor
I think all common units look western european becasue were made for that purpouse originally. And now almost everybody is against having common "desert" or "steppe" units, looking by their origin.
Yes, AI should be smart enough to be able to decide that if you built a swordsmen in arabic building and your kigdom is islamic, he will produce Saracens or Mamluks and if your kingdom is christian he'll produce crusader (or :rolleyes: Turcopole) infantry. But if it's not so smart yet, I'm really not aggainst having desert and steppe end "european" infantry/archers and cavalry(Camel riders instead of des.cav.) with diferent look, but similar skills in their original land. But when those common desert etc. units will come to diferent environment (desert to forests of Europe), they wil have some :scratch: negative bonusses (?) to morale, move, bravery etc., so won't be the same.

And I would like to start a discussion on substitute units too. I don't think that unit for islamic kingdoms in Europe should look absolutely like muslims. NO! They should look at least little that their origin is European, but they fight for muslims, so are more reliable than Templars etc. This is especially for "crusader units", in my suggestion Turcopoles, eastern look, but western style of fight or I don't know what else.

Any idea for this?

btw, I don't think that the more the better (if all the same), but if now we have so many units I prefere transforming them to really unique ones (and little fewer) from only removing them all. That's for desert archers/desert spearmen vs. men-at-arms/archers vs. slavic archers/slavic axemen vs. turkic swordsmen/janissary.

Not the case of "heavy" units. There were never archers or crosbowmen with plate armour and there already are Teutonics as full-plate infantry. Once again: I can imagine "heavy" crossbowmen with pavise shield, bout not heavy archer or swordsmen. Archers need light armour to move, men at arms already are heavy swordsmen IMO, so remove those two and specialize crossbowmen if possible please.

[Drake Maethor]

Originally posted by Elewyn

@Drake Maethor
Yes, AI should be smart enough to be able to decide that if you built a swordsmen in arabic building and your kigdom is islamic, he will produce Saracens or Mamluks and if your kingdom is christian he'll produce crusader (or :rolleyes: Turcopole) infantry.


Well.... in fact that's an easy thing to code... Just some conditional statements...
But what I'm saying is a little simpler. Is like if you build a peasant in some arabic kingdom, build a peasant but give him an arabic look. If you build a Man at arms in the same Arabic kingdom, build a Man at Armas but give him a scimitar instead of a sword... Do you get the point...? Not changing the units in their essence and configuration, but instead in the graphics! Just like the buildings in AOK! (Mills where the same in every place, but they looked different).
I'm talking only about the common units. By common units I mean those that are common to every kingdom and can be build everywhere. And not the SPECIAL ones (like Cataphracts, Mamelukes, Templars, etc.).

[Bagpipe]

OK, very good lists:cheers:

But I think Desert Cavalry is not a bad choice, coz as I know, Sipahias are related only to turks, and with what type of cavalry Arab conquests has to be tied? Camel riders? Not at all. IMO, arabs should have their unique horsemen.:)

[Drake Maethor]

Originally posted by Drake Maethor
If you build a Man at arms in the same Arabic kingdom, build a Man at Armas but give him a scimitar instead of a sword... Do you get the point...? Not changing the units in their essence and configuration, but instead in the graphics! Just like the buildings in AOK! (Mills where the same in every place, but they looked different).
I'm talking only about the common units. By common units I mean those that are common to every kingdom and can be build everywhere. And not the SPECIAL ones (like Cataphracts, Mamelukes, Templars, etc.).

Oops, I was wrong: men at arms are only in Europe...
In fact I have recently paid a more cautious look to the units showcase and I've found that the so called common units are scarce. Even the common archers are just European ones...
(they could have some European prefix now btw ;))
So it seems that the units are far more localized that what I though... Not only changuing the appearance but also the name.

I don't know if that is wrong... In fact I kinda like it.
I think that here are three rather different issues.

One are the units whose main difference is in their origin: like Archers against Desert Archers, Turkish Archers, etc.

Two is similar units that can be upgraded versions of others: like Heavy Crossbowmen and Heavy Swordmen...

And third issue: A lack of more localized units.

About the first issue:
I don't think that it is a bad idea to differentiate similar units of different origins... In fact I think it makes the game richer and helps to "simulate" the rich cultural diversity of the Middle Ages. It was a very complex period... Don't forget about that. Different strategies and units for different nations.
I don't know the real ingame differences between these units... but let the devs explain their ideas a little first. Anyway if they are very equal or not, for starters I like the idea. I mean, if they are the same but with different names and outfit, well... not everybody looked the same in the Middle Ages and not everybody came from the same place. Having more localized units doesn't harm at all.

About the second issue:
Well maybe this is a more problematic thing... What are heavy crossbowmen or heavy swordmen??? Maybe they are just upgrades... I don't know.
Here we can't do nothing but expeculate. So let us wait for the devs answers.

About the third... well that is fixed adding more units! ;)
(Not taking away the ones that we now have)
If they added 25 more units just in one update, I don't think that they'll have a problem adding a few more. ;)

But my main feeling is that we are precipitating a bit...

[Drek'thar]

good lists

and my suggestions...

roman infantry must be byzantine infantry
akindjis must be ligth cavalry (not polearm) for turks(middle east&balkans)
jinetes must be ligth cavalry(javelins?) for christian spain
bowmen(or archer) and heavy swordsmen (we have men-at-arms) must be removed
other heavies must be some kind of upgrade(or removed) not new units(they can be more powerful but slower etc)
are turkic infantries avaible for turks(seljuqs ottomans) or turkics(khazars pechenegs cumans ...)?? if they are turkish they must be removed(we have jannies) if turkic their names must change to steppe archer/swordsmen(like the desert ones) and avaible in southern russia&ukraine for turkics&mongols
crusader&desert&slavonic units must remain for localization
sipahis akindjis and ghulams must be mounted and ranged(but they can be melee for balance&gameplay etc)
baltic cavalry can be add for lithuanian friends
and about slingers i dont know any middle eastern army with slingers they have archers

[Elewyn]

Originally posted by Drake Maethor
If you build a peasant in some arabic kingdom, build a peasant but give him an arabic look. If you build a Man at arms in the same Arabic kingdom, build a Man at Armas but give him a scimitar instead of a sword... Do you get the point...? Not changing the units in their essence and configuration, but instead in the graphics! Just like the buildings in AOK! (Mills where the same in every place, but they looked different).
I'm talking only about the common units. By common units I mean those that are common to every kingdom and can be build everywhere. I got your point. I only said I dot know if it can work with actual KoH engine ;) I'm not sure if same unit can look different in actual KoH engine. I've never seen a game where same unit have 3 posibilities how to look like :( but if it's possible with builfings in AoK, so why not?

[Siautas]

Originally posted by Drek'thar
good lists

and my suggestions...

roman infantry must be byzantine infantry
akindjis must be ligth cavalry (not polearm) for turks(middle east&balkans)
jinetes must be ligth cavalry(javelins?) for christian spain
bowmen(or archer) and heavy swordsmen (we have men-at-arms) must be removed
other heavies must be some kind of upgrade(or removed) not new units(they can be more powerful but slower etc)
are turkic infantries avaible for turks(seljuqs ottomans) or turkics(khazars pechenegs cumans ...)?? if they are turkish they must be removed(we have jannies) if turkic their names must change to steppe archer/swordsmen(like the desert ones) and avaible in southern russia&ukraine for turkics&mongols
crusader&desert&slavonic units must remain for localization
sipahis akindjis and ghulams must be mounted and ranged(but they can be melee for balance&gameplay etc)
baltic cavalry can be add for lithuanian friends
and about slingers i dont know any middle eastern army with slingers they have archers

:cheers:

[Jarlabanke]

Couldn't heavy swordsmen be swordsmen with greatswords for cutting up spear formations

[Gorgoroth]

Originally posted by Finellach
Well first I would like to state that my "availability" was more general and not so detailed. I did that on purpose. I am quite aware that Normans were only in Normandy, Sicily and Boyars were only in Bulgaria in Balkans etc. ;)

Second I would disagree with you on Mongolian Cavalry. You see Mongolian Cavalry was nothing different than any other Steppe Horsemen. They carried bows and swords, had light armor and were fat and manuvarable cavalry. Even their appearance was strikingly similar. Also not all Mongolian Cavalry were Mongolians. Also why have I said there should be Steppe Horsemen in Bulgaria and Hungary? Well the obvious reason is that the original Magyars and Avars and even Bulgarians were of asiatic ancestry and were related to later Mongolians.

I don't see however what would Steppe Horsemen do in Croatia. They would have no place there IMO.


Your knowledge is very little my friend. Magyars have no relations with the Mongols. Magyars were a Finno-Ugrish tribe, thus their relatives are the finns for example. :)
The Huns and the Mongols had some relations possibly.
However you are right in one point. Magyars were famous horse archers, so the horse archer is 'ok' for them as a special unit.
But those are avaible everywhere I guess?
I have no idea what a steppe horsemen is.

PS.
Btw did you knew that the Croatians got Iranian origins?

Oh and nice to be back, hi all. :)

[timurlenk]

Originally posted by Gorgoroth
Your knowledge is very little my friend...


hungarian. as proud as ever :D

whatever, finellach and you agree in steppe horsemen as special unit for magyars.

[Gorgoroth]

Originally posted by timurlenk
hungarian. as proud as ever :D

whatever, finellach and you agree in steppe horsemen as special unit for magyars.

:) .. hehe I just corrected him, nothing more.
Not really, I have no idea, what a steppe horsemen is.
Magyars never lived in the 'steppe areas' at all.
I guess steppe horsemen should be a mongolian unit, but once again I have no idea what the devs meant on steppe horsemen.. :rolleyes:

Oh and hi there "Austria". 8)

[Bora]

in the unit showscase i still see tha viking with the stupid horns,... hope bss removes it finally and replece it with tghe helmet with the "eyeprotection"