My suggestion for new units.

[Elewyn]

Please, Gorgoroth. Stop.

[timurlenk]

Originally posted by Gorgoroth
Yeah, I posted this 10 replies ago. :)
It is pointless to argue with Finellach.

Lets close this 'discussion' here, we can continue it via private messaging if we want.
However this little arguing was good for something at least. This showed to the people, that it is not wise to post nonsense, ignorant things and insane theories. :o
Yes everyone must have an own opinion, but its more wise to keep it for themselves, especially in cases like this. :angel:


:(
si tacuisses, philosophus mansisses.

[Finellach]

Elewyn the essey I provided you with is not my theory but just an essey which shows the different views and posibbilities of Magyar origin mainly orienting on it's relation to other Uralo-Altaic languages than just Finno-Ugrian.

If this is true, so I ask why most of hungarian agricultural terms are of slavic origin? when they were qite familliar with agriculture, they should have had some own agricultural terms, didn't they?

And they did. The answer to your original question is simple. Magyars assimilated large numbers of Slavs who were "imposed" Hungarian language and culture as their own, but their customs remained closely related to their real Slavic origin.
Hungarian modern nation is in large majority slavic. More than 60% of today Hungarians are actually Slavs which more than for example "mother of all Slavs" Russia. The other 40% are mainly of other Indo-European origins meaning there are no Magyars anymore. What is left of their heritage is the language and the name. It's a very similar situation with Bulgarians, Croats, Russian, etc.

I must say I am deeply disappointed in you Elewyn. I understand when one does not agree with other, but dismissing theories on base of prejudice is something....well not good.

Now my theory was already presented to you which you dismissed in a very rude fashion.
My theory after I've looked in my sources is that they were a loose confederation of different tribes which were of different ethnic origin. The main ethnic origin of most of these tribes must have been asiatic and posibbly Turkish, but even if they were not there must've been some Turkih tribes "assimilated" or incoported into this federation. And after all Finno-Ugrians were also mostly of asiatic appearance so it was probably easy to confuse them with the original Turks just like it was easy to confuse all Europeans with Franks in time of Crusades(your example).

But this is so complex matter that it's very ungrateful to discuss it and you need a high level of culture and tolerance for others. For me the crime is to minimaize the group of languages only on Finno-Ugric group which makes only small part of the huge group of languages called Uralo-Altaic. To me that is like dismissing Indo-European language and insisiting only on small group within it like for example Germanic, Slavic, etc. Such practice shrinkes the posibbility of ever exploring the true origin of Magyar who are responsible for giving it's name to modern Hungarian/Magyar nation which is obviously of different ethinc ogirin.

Nations and tribes assimilated each other and mixed with each other so we have strange combinations today like Hungarian's or Finns and Estonians speaking mainly asiatic languages while their ethnic origin is Indo-European.

For me this discussion is over. I tried to discuss it in a civilized manner exploring different posibbilities and giving various sources and my main goal was to show that the origin of Magyars is still activly disucussed.
Certain individuals showed great intolerance, primitivism and bad manners.

And finally apology for turning this thread into something I never desired, although I didn't started mine was the original spark.

Mea Culpa.

[Elewyn]

Sorry for staying ingnorant and intolerant (if you think it). I prefere not calling anybody with that words, it never helps discussion to find any conclusion. I'm not so skilled in english and in human qualities to be able to judge anybody from one issue. Myabe it's caused by my ignorance and stupidyty. Originally posted by Finellach
And they did. The answer to your original question is simple. Magyars assimilated large numbers of Slavs who were "imposed" Hungarian language and culture as their own, but their customs remained closely related to their real Slavic origin. I only asked and now I ask. So why they accepted mainly words connected to agriculture and government of agricultural society?

It's always the same when two cultures from which one have better experience in one case, their wordpower wins over the other ones'. (Anglo-Saxon vs. French in England. Pork, beef etc-meals are of french origin-higher french culture used it. and pig and cow are of germanic origin because Anglo-Saxons used it more than norman nobility). High culture and literature has mostly french wordpower, what is the reason? French were worse (among Europeans) in writing poems and novels, is it right?(most terms are of French and Russian origin, most famous writers I know are French or Russian). Do you want more examples?

When you meet somebody in f.e. Papua-New Guinea who is living in a hut in very primitive conditions and he shows you something you haven't ever seen, how would you call it? and how would he call your discman?

I never said Magyars are not Uralo-Altaic origin, since it's wider group where Finno-Ugric group belongs. I am only aggainst saying they are of Turkic origin. I'm not saying it's definitely true that they are of that origin I think tey are. Many proofs you gave us in that essay are really strong(IMO), but in context of whole essay I'm not sure if they are relyable because of evident chauvinism and nationalism if not even facism in it.

Sorry. If you haven't recognized nationalism or facism in that essay you linked, my sympathy with you. I can recognize facism when I meet it face to face.
But yes. Magyars were of Uralo-Altainc origin, todays Hungarians are moslty of Slavic origin(except language) every fairy tale needs happy-end, so I hope it will help.

[Gorgoroth]

Okay, the main problem what we had here, is that Finellach posted some dismissed and dropped theories [the Vambery theory], he made up theories after some ancient fairy tales [we all know that it is just a tale of course here in Hungary], etc.

I apologize as well, but I dont like ignorance.
:cheers:

[Finellach]

Originally posted by Elewyn
Sorry for staying ingnorant and intolerant (if you think it). I prefere not calling anybody with that words, it never helps discussion to find any conclusion. I'm not so skilled in english and in human qualities to be able to judge anybody from one issue. Myabe it's caused by my ignorance and stupidyty. I only asked and now I ask. So why they accepted mainly words connected to agriculture and government of agricultural society?

I didn't meant you. It's obvious of whom I am speaking...

Originally posted by Elewyn
It's always the same when two cultures from which one have better experience in one case, their wordpower wins over the other ones'. (Anglo-Saxon vs. French in England. Pork, beef etc-meals are of french origin-higher french culture used it. and pig and cow are of germanic origin because Anglo-Saxons used it more than norman nobility). High culture and literature has mostly french wordpower, what is the reason? French were worse (among Europeans) in writing poems and novels, is it right?(most terms are of French and Russian origin, most famous writers I know are French or Russian). Do you want more examples?

I don't see how the British example has any connection with the Hungarians. Every nation's ethno-genesis is an independant process. You have made example of Normans and Saxons. Normans beat them and although they did Saxons were not imposed French language wheter willingly or in some other way. Hungarians on the other way are a totally opposite example. They are Slavs who were beaten by the Magyars and as such accepted their name and language. Something similar with Slavic Bulgarians or Illyrian Croats, Bosnians, Serbs, Albanians.

Originally posted by Elewyn
I never said Magyars are not Uralo-Altaic origin, since it's wider group where Finno-Ugric group belongs. I am only aggainst saying they are of Turkic origin. I'm not saying it's definitely true that they are of that origin I think tey are. Many proofs you gave us in that essay are really strong(IMO), but in context of whole essay I'm not sure if they are relyable because of evident chauvinism and nationalism if not even facism in it.

I don't see chauvinism and nationalism. It is a phantom of your imagination. The essey is objective and is more nationlistic crap free than Finno-Ugric theory. The Finno-Ugric theory on the other sounds to me more nationlistic than any other theory. Especially presented here on this group. It's like certain inidividual is ashamed that the original Magyars were posibbly a kin with the Turks. But he forgets that Finno-Ugric, cousins to Turks or not, were also of mongoloid appearance.

Originally posted by Elewyn
Sorry. If you haven't recognized nationalism or facism in that essay you linked, my sympathy with you. I can recognize facism when I meet it face to face.

Really? So unlike me who has lived and is still living in a society which is haunted by such issues you claim I don't recongize chauvinism and even more fascism?! Really Elewyn... :rolleyes:

[Gorgoroth]

Originally posted by Finellach
The essey is objective and is more nationlistic crap free than Finno-Ugric theory. The Finno-Ugric theory on the other sounds to me more nationlistic than any other theory. Especially presented here on this group. It's like certain inidividual is ashamed that the original Magyars were posibbly a kin with the Turks. But he forgets that Finno-Ugric, cousins to Turks or not, were also of mongoloid appearance.



Finellach, we all stopped I guess, and you continue to post even stupider things now.
:D
You should stop real fast, if someone really know this topic, well that person is laughing on you, that is for sure. :p
I am..:angel:

Use the PMs, before we will be moderated out.

[Frujin]

It is not anymore on the topic -> moved in Royal Inn. And please, behave. For hot stuff use PMs ...

[Finellach]

Gorgoroth could you please point to these "more stupider" things? I being ignorrant, stupid and idiot don't see these "stupider" things.

I find it boring though. You offered absolutly no arguments nor have you read anything what I wrote. The only thing you show in your posts are negative fallacy, ad hominem attacks and very bad manners. This all shows you don't have real arguments to counter my arguments.