D-day's 60 years anniversary

[Bagpipe]

Originally posted by shagrath_the_dead

and did you know how to scare a russian soldier during WW2?
when one screams tiger terror,most of em fled,they were so scared of the tigers :D

Ordinary russian soldiers every german tank called "tiger" as well as every sturmgeschutz "ferdinand":D

@Henrik
M. Wittmann however is the most famous tank ace of WW2. And first of all, he was a soldier.

Btw, in some games like Soldiers: Heroes of WW2 and Blitzkrieg 2 german missions gives a possibility to play with him.

[Henrik]

Originally posted by Bagpipe
@Henrik
M. Wittmann however is the most famous tank ace of WW2. And first of all, he was a soldier.


No, i'm not sure about that - i think it was the other way around....he was one of the nazi guys, but also a great tank commander - as far as i know Michal wittmann was a convinced nazi - this also put a dark shadow over his achievements unfortunately.

But lots of those other great commanders was just doing it because it was their job i.e a soldiers job i basically to fight wars - right ! or at least that's the way it used to be !

[shagrath_the_dead]

offcourse i know the achtung panzer site my friend :)

if you are interested in tankhunters,hetzers and sturmgeschutzen etc etc etc
take this site

http://www.pzfahrer.net/

:)

anyway,we should open up a topic especially for tanks etc etc so we can keep discussing d-day here ;)

[Sir Turylon]

Originally posted by Henrik
No, i'm not sure about that - i think it was the other way around....he was one of the nazi guys, but also a great tank commander - as far as i know Michal wittmann was a convinced nazi - this also put a dark shadow over his achievements unfortunately.

But lots of those other great commanders was just doing it because it was their job i.e a soldiers job i basically to fight wars - right ! or at least that's the way it used to be !

If he was in a Panzer SS group... he was dedicated Nazi. Regular Whermacht (hope spelling is correct), you did not have to be a dedicated Nazi. If I remember correctly, he was part of a SS panzer unit.

[Frank Fay]

just to heat up a bit the discussion:


PAST:

- Germany started two world wars

- Germany started to use gas in a war

- Germany deported and gassed millions of people

- Germany started mass weaponry production

- Germany's weaponry was "highly creative" in terms of how to kill more with less efford

- German scientists worked on the nuke, which destroyied Hiroshima and Nagasaki

- German scientists worked on rockets which carry the bombs


NOW:

- Germany a democracy, thanks to the french, american, british, polish, russians and all other soldiers. The ones, we started war against !!!

- Germany is part of the EU. No matter how many dont like the EU but fact is it is a union.

Most important: the enemies over centuries are friends now.


About Rommel and other those "heroes":

- Rommel might have been a good strategist but when the war outbroke, he was one of the main supporters

- Rommel sent hundreds of thousands into death in North Africa.

- Rommel never took a gun and fought himself as many of those heroes (on all sides).

- Rommel was a Nazi and that is fact

Just for the record, in my family a lot of males died in both wars... sent to death by those "great strategists" who were the first, who left the battlefield when it became a bit dangerous...

Interesting discussion but please no Bush vs. Hitler references. No one ever will match Hitler in his evilness...

[Bagpipe]

I'm not idolizing M.Witmann at all, just regarding his fighting achievements.

@Sir Turylon.
Yup, he fought in 12th SS Panzer Division "Hitlerjugend" in 1944. In fact, due to lackness of Tiger tanks, mainly these were given to Waffen-SS divisions, and "graetest" commanders were mainly from these divisions. Regarding these divisions, some of them (ex.: "Totenkopf") often participated in well-known cruelties, but some of them were mainly fighting units (ex.: "Gotz von Berlichingen"), and it's esp. dificult to estimate various of them.

@Frank Fay
Thx God you live in democratic and tolerant country now. German people IMO are one of the most peacefull in Europe after things they've seen in this bloody century.

And 'bout those "heroes" and "strategists". There were such in all sides and armies and they have always played thier role in all wars in our history. Germans are not an exception.

And, yes, I know how much some of you hate Bush, but even if Bush would be 10 times bigger villain, he still couldn't match Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot or any other bastard. So, forget it.

[Frank Fay]

There were such in all sides and armies Yes, you are right I did not mean explicitly German generals. But I sensed some heroism about Rommel.

[HappyAdolf]

@ Henrik: Cool site, I found all of my favourite panzers!!!!:D

[Finellach]

Hitler was a lunatic...Bush is just stupid thats all. :p

[Angryminer]

About Rommel:
I don't know if it was an achievement of the soldier's discipline or Rommel's strategy-skills, but in Africa his troops were able to withdraw numerous times with a minimum of losses.
I know a former car-driver who was in Africa under Rommel, and he says that it was mainly Rommel's achievement, but I think it was a mixture of both.

But: You can't save lifes in a war. Every way people die. The only thing you have to think about is that your people don't die.
And I think Rommel thought about that...

Last comment:
It's good that the times have changed. I like being tolerant...

Angryminer

[Gorgoroth]

Originally posted by Finellach
And rightfully so. Hungary held many "non-hungarian" areas and countries. Transylania, Croatia, Bosnia, Slovakia, Bohemia....they all deserve their independance.

Transylvania was a part of Hungary for 1000 years.
Oh and dont tell me anything about the Dacians please, they werent Romanians. :D

[Elewyn]

sorry to interrupt wuite interesting discussion. It is just to correct Finellach. Bohemia never was part of Hungary. Only few kings (Sigismmund of Luxembourg, Luis Jagello, Habsburgs) ruled in Both, Hungary and Bohemia. It's like saing Bohemians held Hungary as part of Bohemia.

[Henrik]

Originally posted by Frank Fay
About Rommel and other those "heroes":

- Rommel might have been a good strategist but when the war outbroke, he was one of the main supporters


That's probably because Rommel was a soldier.


- Rommel sent hundreds of thousands into death in North Africa.


Well, so did Napoleon, Alexander the great, Caesar

- Rommel never took a gun and fought himself as many of those heroes (on all sides).


Well, a generals job is to plan a battle not to participate personally IMO

Rommel was a Nazi and that is fact


No, it is not a fact - i think we ougt to distinguish between those who were just "ordinary" soldiers/generals and those which were convinced nazi followers and to put field marshall Rommel in the nazi category is to smear his name and undying fame.

When the subject is germany in WW2 and in general - lots of us who are interested in this subject admire those great generals like Erwin Rommel, Von Manstein, Von Rundstet just like we admire general Patton, Montgommery and the likes, but at the same time we don't feel so good about Hitler, Himmler and the rest of those nazi guys.


Just for the record, in my family a lot of males died in both wars... sent to death by those "great strategists" who were the first, who left the battlefield when it became a bit dangerous...


I'm sorry to hear that, but as i have stated above a generals duty is not be in the frontline - i'm being a little careful here, because we see this from two differents point of views - where mine is probably a objective one.

[Henrik]

Originally posted by shagrath_the_dead
offcourse i know the achtung panzer site my friend :)

if you are interested in tankhunters,hetzers and sturmgeschutzen etc etc etc
take this site

http://www.pzfahrer.net/

:)

anyway,we should open up a topic especially for tanks etc etc so we can keep discussing d-day here ;)

I've got some more nice stuff for you and the rest - like:


Panther Tank - the "G" model (http://www.ordmusfound.org/panther.html)

Tank Destroyer "Jadgtiger" (http://www.ordmusfound.org/jadgtiger.html)

88 Gun (http://www.ordmusfound.org/flak36.html)

They also got Anzio annie which is a railroad gun and they also got a shell from the "Dora" railroad gun ! - this shell is one big motherf**ker !

See and enjoy the rest at US Army Ordnance Museum (http://www.ordmusfound.org/index.htm)

[fallen_saint]

i would go into american politics, but most dont know anythign about and i don't either, Bush may not be the best president ever, but he sure isn't the worst we had and I'm pretty sure we won't discuss some of Europes bad leaders (hehe lucky for us europe has a long history look at)

and if you want to blame someone for troubles for wwI or Ii just look at germany's current ally called france who has done a lot of stupid things over time and caused lots of trouble probably as much as germany or the US has.

And i can't believe Henrik didn't include Eisenhower in his listing of big allied leaders, he was the man in charge of D-Day lol or listed some Japanese leaders like Adm Yoknoma(misspell, guy who led pearl harbor attack)

Oh yea i don't think Hitler is not the most evil man ever, i think he is up there with Stalin, Mao, Genghis Khan, Caesar(murdered thousands of people), some latin american dicatators, some US army officials (grant, sherman, sheridan, andrew jackson, william henry harrison) and their dealings with Native Americans, which was as big (i think at least) a genocide as hitler was doing to jews and other outcasts :( these are some of the evil guys, out there in history

[the knightly sword]

the war was stupid really stupid but i respect these soldiers that was killed killed in normandie but they were waste of human life .why cant stalin hitler churhill roosevelt mossalini rommel

hitler mossalini rommel vs stalin roosevelt churhill on the battle fields of normandie ALONE.if they wanna fight they have to fight it there selfs yeah that would be good as a rule

[Rnett]

Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto

[Sir Turylon]

Originally posted by Frank Fay
just to heat up a bit the discussion:



- Germany started mass weaponry production



this is wrong.

the first ever known use of mass produced weapons was during the 1860s. The American Civil War was the first war that saw mass usage of machined weapons. Not sure if Europe had this going at the time.... but the machined weapons are most definitely an American invention. :)

Same with the Maxim machine gun, airplane, semi-auto repeating rifle (winchester), first working dual action revolver, submarine, mine, torpedo, and..... lastly but none-the-less important.... barbed wire fence. :)

@ Rommel... I admire the guy... but, I admire Guedarian, Zhukov, Patton, Bradley, and even Halsey more.

[fallen_saint]

thx Rnett for the correction, and the war though evil and bad as it was pulled nations out of the depression i Know it pulled US and Germany out of it....sad though it is...

[Sir Turylon]

Originally posted by fallen_saint
thx Rnett for the correction, and the war though evil and bad as it was pulled nations out of the depression i Know it pulled US and Germany out of it....sad though it is...

actually, we were out of it before the war started. The war made the economy surge forward though. ;) FDR, the one democratic President that did something usefull for the country :D hehe