D-day's 60 years anniversary

[Bagpipe]

As you know, 60 years of landing in Normandy turns tomorrow. Some kind of festival is being planned. Many political leaders are going to visit Normandy, including Bush, Blair, Chirac, Schroder etc...

It's undoubtedly a beggining of Europe's (West) liberalization, however, I see it a bit "winner-sided". IMO Schroder shouldn't forget these German soldiers, (in 06.06 coasts defended only invalids and foreigners) who fought allies in Normandy, the more because their standing against 10 times greater enemy, IMHO is sth close to heroism. They were not the right side, however, but still some respect is needed. Can't understand, why Schroder is kissing Bush's ***, esp. after such a strong standing against war in Iraq. He is the first chancellor who comes to the anniversary. H.Kohl never did so.

Agree that limits has to be broken, but German government together with appologizing for the dark past of the country, should pay some respect to their soldiers who also were partly deceived.

[HappyAdolf]

Yeah, you're right. H. Kohl was the better Chanclor. Noone likes Schroeder really....

[Angryminer]

I condemn the landing in the Normandy.
How can you send so many people into death?
I don't speak about german soldiers. I don't speak about french civilian casualties from the heavy bombing of the towns. I speak about the idea of sending thousands of soldiers into the range of german MGs without any cover. They were slaughtered, and no one cared.
That's not a reason for a festival.

Angryminer

[shagrath_the_dead]

agree with bagpipe :)

[Kuno of Gersenau]

Totally agree with Angryminer...

Was this really the only way to land in Europe...?

[HappyAdolf]

Why couldn't thy just have let us win the war? One day the people would have been upset with the Nazis, there wozuld've been an revolution and Germany would be the mightiest country of the world today:D

[Angryminer]

Europe had to be liberated.
Any day longer would have cost more lifes.
But I don't think that the landing in the Normandy was the best way to begin the liberation. In fact I believe that it was one of the worst.
But I'm happy to live in a democratic Nation. And I'm happy that we are one of the most tolerant nations. That isn't solely the allies' achievement, but they played a big part in Germany's development.

Angryminer

[Finellach]

I think that much better way to land troops would be in Dalmatia actually. In fact some of the high placed American officers suggested it, but Roosevelt declined it becauause they had an agreement with the Soviets. Not to mention future of Croatia would be today much birghter...not to mention the present...

In any case I resepct German and any Axis soldiers as much as I respect the Allied forces soldiers. I think sometimes the German soldiers and memory on them is unfair since they were on the wrong side, but many of them were just soldiers...those that are really guilty and were idiots were those who held concentration camps and of course those who were the masterminds of the "jewsih question".

[Henrik]

@ Angryminer


I condemn the landing in the Normandy.
How can you send so many people into death?
I don't speak about german soldiers. I don't speak about french civilian casualties from the heavy bombing of the towns. I speak about the idea of sending thousands of soldiers into the range of german MGs without any cover. They were slaughtered, and no one cared.
That's not a reason for a festival.


Well, how about those russian soldiers which fought at stalingrad - if you have seen the movie enemy at the gate, then i'm quite sure that you know what i'm talking about

btw, what would have suggested that the allied forces should have done instead ? - they had no other choice than make a large assault on the beaches - i'm also quite sure that the commanders had taken every precaution to "protect" the troops when they landed on the beaches, like a naval barrage targeting costal installation ( bunkers and so on ) and they did drop paratroopers ( like the 101st. airborne (band of brothers) ) enemy's line to take out artillery posistions.

@Finellach - i'll agree with you - when i discuss WW2 with others we always end up talking about german ingenuity in terms of weapons and tactics, but also about those famous german divisions ( which also are infamous :( ) i'm thinking of the Totenkopf,Das Reich and Leibstandarte etc. if one look away from the war crimes and only look at them as the fighting unit they also were, then there is no doubt that they were among the best fighting units of the WW2 - íf i remember correct they are regarded as the worlds first "modern" commando and elite units.

[Drake Maethor]

Originally posted by Bagpipe
Agree that limits has to be broken, but German government together with appologizing for the dark past of the country, should pay some respect to their soldiers who also were partly deceived.

I've read in the newspaper that among the celebrations there will be some homages in a German military cementery in Caen. However I don't know if Schroder would be present. It only said that the homages were going to be done by young people.

Btw, just a commentary!
I had a good surprise reading this article in the paper. It talked about some Argentinians that were at D-Day fighting in the allied air and naval forces. Something that I didn't know about!
For example in the RAF there were sons of British families that had come to live here and friends of them that went fo fight in Europe with them. Specially they were in the the Argentine-British Squadron.
But also you got Argentinians in the Free French Air Forces and in the Royal Navy.
It's good surprise to find out that some of your countrymen fought in WWII! And I found it today. :cheers:

Originally posted by Angryminer
But I'm happy to live in a democratic Nation. And I'm happy that we are one of the most tolerant nations. That isn't solely the allies' achievement, but they played a big part in Germany's development.

But your country was a democratic nation in the Nazi period. Hitler arose into power with the vote of the people and there were at least 4 plesbicites to reaffirm him (1933, 1934, 1936, 1938). (Of course I'm not saying that they weren't corrupted).
About tolerancy, well of course then I cannot say the same.
But many people confuse democracy with tolerance, and IMO they are not always united. And if you don't like Nazi Germany as an example then have the Greeks example: plebes and slaves were not allowed to vote, and so many were discriminated because of their inferior social condition. Is that what you call a democracy? However it was. And superior in many aspects than the one that we have today.

[Angryminer]

What would have suggested that the allied forces should have done instead ?I didn't study this period of time, so I don't think I can make a good statement.
But if you force me to do one, I will obey your wish. I think that the landing in Italy was far less casualty-laden than the landing in the Normandy. But please note, that I'm really not an expert on these things.

Angryminer

[Finellach]

The problem with Italy were the Alps. They posed a bit too much of an obstacle. As I said the best solution was Dalmatia since it would cut the Hitler's forces in half, there were not even close that much soldiers there and not to mention Allied forces would have a much better terrain to work with than Italy.

Btw. Dalmatia is even called Hitler's weak heel. Why do you think Hitler invaded Yugoslavia although the Serbian prince and Yugoslav prime minister petitioned for Yugoslavia in Axis forces. ;)

[Henrik]

Originally posted by Angryminer
I didn't study this period of time, so I don't think I can make a good statement.
But if you force me to do one, I will obey your wish. I think that the landing in Italy was far less casualty-laden than the landing in the Normandy. But please note, that I'm really not an expert on these things.

Angryminer

That's okay :)

I can tell you that at the landing at Salerno the troops got shot to pieces also - in the whole of the italian campaign United States forces some 114,000 casualties ! the italian campaign is also regarded as one of the most bloodiest compaigns.

[Redback]

Hmm interesting opinions:)

My Dad fought for the German army on the Russian front 1943-45,
and some of his stories are horrifying.
Its true the german army had the tactical edge over their enemies but they had to because the odds were stacked against them even from the beginning.

But let us not forget ,that the anniversary of D'Day is not just about celebrating victory,but to honor the Dead,and pay respect to the victims of war on both sides of the conflict.
{even if its not acknowledged offically,just look at the Aussies and Turks on ANZAC day at ,Gallipolli.}

btw:
How many of you know why it was called "The Longest Day",
just curious?.:cheers:

[Bagpipe]

Churchill and some high british an american generals offered landing in Balkans instead, which could let for allies to take many regions in Eastern Europe, but leader of "the most democratic country" refused, as he was making a deal with Stalin.


Well, how about those russian soldiers which fought at stalingrad - if you have seen the movie enemy at the gate, then i'm quite sure that you know what i'm talking about


I don't know, as I haven't seen the movie.
But if can guess what do ya have in mind.
Soviet high command didn't value their soldier. Often thousands were being sent to real death against mg's without any cover. Almost in all battles Soviets had numeral advantage, but still lost many of em, esp. in the beggining of the war. Number of prisoners during this time is awesome, many of soldiers freely surrendered to enemy(500 000 prisoners captured by Germans in Kyev in August 1941). Only the stupid, self-confident german leaders didn't know, how to use em. They've better moved them to camps, dooming to dye from starvation and other tortures.

[Elewyn]

those "uncovered Soviet troops"... guess who it was.

Political opponents.
In Czechoslovakian history we have one battle like this:
Battle of Dukla pass. It was the most suicidal way how to get to Czechoslovakia, strongly "fortified", but many "inloyal" Czecholsovakian and Ukrainian soldiers lost their lives there, because of order from the Kremlin.

Landing in Dalmatia would mean real deliberation of Europe, but western Allies couldn't afford that because they promissed to Stalin openeng a new front, not deliberation of Soviet zone of interest.

[Henrik]

Originally posted by Redback
My Dad fought for the German army on the Russian front 1943-45, and some of his stories are horrifying.
Its true the german army had the tactical edge over their enemies but they had to because the odds were stacked against them even from the beginning.


That's interesting Redback - i'll guess he can tell a lot of stories ( if he want to )

Where did he serve i.e in the wehrmacht ( the regular army ) or... and in which branch infantry, armour, artillery or...


btw:
How many of you know why it was called "The Longest Day",
just curious?.:cheers:

I know the D-day is called the longest day, but i can't seem to remember why !

[Rnett]

I remember the movie and General Rommel predicted it would be "the Longest Day", but I'm not sure about the historical accuracy.:confused:

[HappyAdolf]

Jeah, that's true, Rnett. He said that ''we Germans will make the D-day the longest day in their lives!'' He made it true.. but lost:(

[Ledhead]

Rommel said it in the perspective that he knew that if the allies would be allowed to get a foothold on continental Europe, the war would be lost.