most nations covered

[Ben Nevis]

wouldn't it be nice to have most currently European nations covered, both from a marketing as well as from a gamer point of view. Everybody wants to represent his/her own country. I'm from the Netherlands and I understand that the Netherlands was slightly divided during the dark ages, but I wouldn't mind playing anyone of the former counties as long as there is at least one (Holland, Friesland, Gelre, Branbant). You could even consider mixing Holland with Belgium (which isn't entirely historically incorrect). What I mean, is that according to me being able to represent the country you currently live in is somewhat more important than historical correctness. And I think there's almost always ways around rewriting history. As with Romania, use Transylvania, use flanders for Begium and use Holland for the Netherlands. Don't forget that tiny countries in geographical sense sometimes have big gaming populations (Scandinavia, Benelux) that would definately like to represent their own country. If you doubt the importance of this, watch the European Championship in Portugal for a while and you'll be convinced ;).

[Angryminer]

Never!

*Angryminer waves the Historical-Accuracy-Flag around the place*
;)

Angryminer


I noticed that this post may be easy to misunderstand...
Due to the concept of KoH we can't include these really small realms. So we have to melt the realms together and create bigger ones. I'd like to have smaller ones too, but we won't get that.
We have to act within in the parameters of KoH, so it's hard to reach absolute historical accuracy. And because there is nothing like "Holy Roman Empire" in KoH (remember: the HRE wasn't a nation like for example France), we can't have the smaller realms within the HRE. They would simply break apart because there is no Empire that holds them together.
So we have to get a bit off from historical accuracy to reach a better historical accuracy.

[Nike]

I don't agree with the idea! F.e. I have played with the teritory where I live or with similar nations (Ukraine, Russia etc.). in games that didn't allow me to play with Bulgaria. And I also prefer a historical correct game.

I think the question is whether the game should be developed from gamers point of view or finance point of view!

[Ben Nevis]

oke, I understand your need for correctness. But what is your opinion about at least having one historically correct ancestor. When you look at the maps of the different centuries you can see that the Netherlands has always been seperate and never part of Germany (which would be a big frustration for me, considering the upcoming match ;-)). First, the Frisians ruled (which is still a province nowadays) after which several Dukes ruled. Therefore it would only be more historically correct to have at least some representation. The Romans never got to the other side of the Rhine and the Spanish rulers never got North of Alkmaar. Thus I think those Frisians, Batavians and Dutchies deserve some right of existence, having stopped such armies. My most important point is that you take into account the gamers, and although the Netherlands is small in geographical sense, it's certainly not in demographical sense. Its population is significant with 15 million people. Besides that, the Netherlands ranks extremely high in the "having access to the Internet" and "having access to a computer" stats.

[Angryminer]

There will be the realm of Flandern for example, but they won't be independent, because they were members of the Holy Roman Empire.
However, Frujin doesn't like the name "Holy Roman Empire" so he renamed it to "Germany". We're working hard on convincing him that "Holy Roman Empire" is far better ;) .
"Germany" is even a big frustration for me...

Angryminer

[Ben Nevis]

I think you're making a mistake if you don't have any represenation of the Netherlands. But I guess I cannot convince you. Too bad.

[Angryminer]

If we would have the Netherlands in the game they would be totally independent from the Holy Roman Empire. But that's historically wrong again.
So we can make them either a part of the Holy Roman Empire (which is named "Germany" here) or completely independent. And I'm sure you wouldn't like to play the Netherlands if they are eaten by either France or the Holy Roman Empire directly in the beginning of the game ;) .
But I agree, you over there are no germans.

Angryminer

[Ben Nevis]

After Germany, Great Brittain, France, Italy, Spain and Poland the Netherlands is the seventh biggest country in Europe populationwise (not taking into account Ukraine, Russia and Turkey (yes, I really looked it up and yes, it's quite sad that I did)). That combined with the stats mentioned earlier, I think it's both from a marketing perspective as well as from a historical perspective a mistake not to include the Netherlands in this game. But I'll buy it anyway, despite my sadness about having to play with the Germans :mad:. I'm afraid others won't, though.:cheers:

[Ben Nevis]

but we were independent from the Holy Roman empire. Look it up in the maps.

[Ben Nevis]

1100 AD -> Friesland
1200 AD -> Holland
1300 AD -> Holland, Friesland, Brabant
1400 AD -> Holland, Friesland, Brabant, Gelders
1500 AD -> Holland, Friesland, Brabant, Gelders

You can see that the western (by far most populated) and the Northern part the Netherlands has (almost) always had it's sovereignity.

[Ben Nevis]

As I mentioned earlier the Romans never got across the Rhine.

[Ben Nevis]

ok, I'll stop being chauvinistic from now on. I wish you guys the best of luck with developing this game and I definately look forward to playing it, even despite having to play with the Germans. :angel:

[Elewyn]

Ben Nevis. I was not very happy when I saw definite version of realms in Low countries. I'm not a developer, but as far as I know and guess, It is very probable that there will be two realms in area of nowadays Belgium and the Netherlands. One is Flandre, that's for sure. Second will probably be called Friesland (by my guess it is the hbest solution)

I'm doinge everything to change devs' statement in some cases:
1 - name Holy Roman Empire correctly, not Germany
2 - make Flandre playable "nation" around year 1200 as a vassal of France, not making it part of HRE
I already succeeded in some more - correct relation between Bohemia and HRE from being part of Germany to it's vassal.

I think that "Friesland" may be playable "nation" for at least late middle ages (around 1350).

I think that having independent nation, I mean absolutely independent, would be not so good. For the case of market success I think that my idea o random map is not bad.

I don't agree with having states like the Netherlands, Romania, Belarus, Belgium or whatever else. In the other hand, I think that Friesland and Flandre should be playable nations as vassals of main European powers, influencing also this region(if not by real rule, then at least by formal claims). It would be compromise between management and historical accurancy.

[Ben Nevis]

couldn't agree more.

A playable Friesland and Flanders would be great.

By the way, I never intended to have a literal Netherlands, but just some representation (such as Friesland).

Thanks for hearing me out

:cheers:

[Finellach]

There will be Friesland and Flanders but they will not be independant...at least not from the begining...you can make it youself.

[Sir Turylon]

If you are going to make a game about conquering Europe in middle ages.... better put a "Invaders from America" country... Since a big portion of buyers will probably be from over here. hehe (sarcastic, of course)

I 100% totally disagree with putting modern names on historic places. This is one reason I liked AoE2, accurate names (to a reasonable amount)

[Drake Maethor]

Invaders from America in the Middle Ages?
:rolleye: you mean like Aztecs, Incas and Mayas?
:p

mmm yeah! that would be interesting, as a social and historical experiment I think!

[Krum The Terrible]

Imposible. Now you have more playable nations than every other game and also most of the buyers will buy the game, becouse it's historicaly correct.

[Ben Nevis]

Turylon, as far as I can recall, the US has never been placed in Europe (although several 100 millions years ago it was connected to it). Furthermore, I think that you Americans are even more proud of your ancestors then we are, considering that the average American still knows what countries their ancestors came from. It is true that Holland, Friesland, Utrecht, Brabant and Gelre existed. I don't know when exactly they became "the United Provinces of the Netherlands" but I know for sure that those provinces had a lot of ties with each other and maybe even more important: SOVEREIGNITY. Would you (being an American) like to be forced to be playing with Mexico while defending Seattle from Canada (maybe in a game situated in the Future Amaricas). Thus it would only be HISTORICALLY MORE CORRECT to create a playable "United provinces of the Netherlands". I think you get my point. All those provinces named earlier had their own autonomy and if that's true, then why not use this to please some of the Dutch players and enable us to defend our own country. Use the several provinces as realms and you already have five or six realms to defend. But I already know it's not going to happen. Maybe I have to wait for a game taking place in the 17th century, although I have the feeling that sometimes due to the sheer size of the Netherlands some game developers ignore this country. I guess, size is all that matters, even in Europe nowadays (I know we are lagging behind you Americans concerning this "(d)evolutionairy matter", and I'm proud of that)

[Ben Nevis]

(btw, maybe I should make a poll concerning "some representation of current Netherlands in" or "some representation of current Netherlands out", cause that's what this thread is all about right now, but I'm afraid I'm going to loose that poll as well)