Red Lake

[Webmaster]

[de]
http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/0,1518,347666,00.html
und wieder werden von den medien videogames und "dunkle" musik für die tat verantwortlich gemacht.

[en]
http://edition.cnn.com/2005/US/03/22/school.shooting/index.html
and again the media blames videogames and "dark" music for this deed.

[HappyAdolf]

Der wahre Grund liegt eher daran:
Wie die "St. Paul Pioneer Press" berichtet, soll sich Weises Vater vor vier Jahren umgebracht haben. Die Mutter des 15-Jährigen lebe in einem Pflegeheim, nachdem sie bei einem Verkehrsunfall schwere Hirnschäden erlitten hätte.

Und nicht an Spielen oder Musik.
Solche Amokläufer sind meistens Leute deren Leben total am ***** ist sag ich jetzt mal.

[karima]

Ja, auf geht's, verbietet Vidoespiele und intelligente Kinder, das wird helfen...

[Angryminer]

Es ist immer toll sofort zu wissen woran's liegt. Das gibt das gute Gefühl solche Dinge kontrollieren zu können. Wenn man die Täter als "Sonderlinge" abstempelt schiebt man sie damit ganz weit weg von sich selbst und macht sie zum Problem anderer Leute um sich blos nicht eingestehen zu müssen, dass jeder Jugendliche elterliche Betreuung braucht.
Fast jeder lebt gerne im gedanklichen Käfig.

Angryminer

[Webmaster]

tja, aber die kettenhunde von der CSU beispielweise springen auf so einen zug auf und schwupps gibts nen gesetzesvorlage zum verbot von videogames.

[Angryminer]

Ist in Griechenland auch durchgekommen.
Dann bezeichne ich meine Spiele halt als "Kaffeemaschinensoftware".
Nebenbei übernehme ich keinerlei Haftung falls jemand die Software auf einem x86-PC mit Windows oder Linux ausführt und rein zufällig ein PC-Spiel startet! :wink:

Angryminer

[Webmaster]

hier übrigen ein sehr guter background artikel ...
http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/0,1518,347759,00.html

[Moryarity]

"Er habe zwei Handfeuerwaffen sowie ein größeres Gewehr bei sich gehabt."

Vielleicht sollten die Amerikaner endlich einmal anfangen über ihre Waffengesetze nachzudenken...wenn sich schon die eigenen Kinder gegenseitig erschießen, sollte doch das Argument des "Selbsschutzes" langsam mal widerlegt sein..

Zum Problem von Videospielen und "gewalttätiger" Musik....nun ja...die Vorgaben der FSK waren mir schon immer ein Rätsel..der Fall des neuen Hary Potter Films hat mir dann endgültig bewiesen, das es sich dabei um rein finanzielle Vorgänge handelt...dass Videospiele oft brutal sind, stimmt..zumindest für eine bestimmte Gattung von Spielen..andere, wie anno zum Beispiel sind ja nun eher harmlos..auch wenn es regelmäßig zu Kriegen kommt ;)..dass Musik gewalttätig macht, ist wohl jedem klar, der schon mal beim Autofahren die Wallküren von Wagner gehört hat ;)..nun ja..stimmt schon ;)

----------------------------
more or less the same in English: ;)

Maybe Americans should think about their laws concerning weapons..if the own childs are killing each other, an argumentation for defence of the own person has to be changed...

concerning videogames and "agressive" music: FSK( gremium in germany deciding at which age a film is avaiable for children) has also only financial interesst in my opinion...

Violoence may be a problem in a lot of games, but only of a spiecal genre..others like Anno are harmless, although there are often wars....

that music makes a<gressive is profed, if you have ever listened to Wagners "Wallküren" while driving a car ;)

[acon]

Hallo

Ich habe nun in vielen Nachrichtensendzngen und Magazinen über diesen Vorfall gehört bzw. gelesen.
Allerdings ist der Spiegel das einzige Mag das ich las, welches die Schuld auf Games schiebt.

[Webmaster]

der spiegel hat auch nur zitiert, wenn mich nicht alles täuscht.

[Moryarity]

Ist ja auch egal, wer es gesagt hat...typisch ist jedenfalls, dass es immer wieder aufgegriffen wird, bevor irgendwelche Untersuchunen durchgeführt wurden..jeder leiert einfach die alte Predigt heruntenr..es wurde werder die Tatsache noch das Gegenteil bewiesen..also sollte man es auch nicht immer wieder zitieren...

[Dobber]

It is such a tragedy, How do 16 year olds get so mixed up? What is even more sad is that this story is taking the back burner here in the USA! Everybody is so enthralled with the Terri Schiavo feeding tube removal/reinsertion battle going on. I am getting so sick of hearing Schiavo every time I turn on the radio or TV. It is even what greets me when I launch my web browser. In my opinion Red Lake is much more tragic and much more worthy of coverage.

[Moryarity]

I wouldn´t say so..both are very traic happenings..one of a school-shooter and the public envolvment and the other a fight for personal rights..I guess both are very "important" in a way...what makes the second so interesting for me is, that the american government is so dramatically interfering in this case..after all juristic ways are used by the family..the government is simply passing a new law, so that there is another chance..what kind of politic is that..if we do not like, what our judges do, we simply make another law....but, what was so surprising was, that the new judgement, didn´t follow the government..that was very surprising for me....

But to come back to Red Lake: I wonder how long it will take, till America notices, that is very dangerous to have so many weapons, easy to get by almost everybody...I mean..in some countries of the US you are not allowed to elect, if you are previously convicted..but you are still allowed to get a weapon..does that make any sense? If htese teenagers did not have any acces to weapons, they could not kill so many people...ok.... that is a bad argument, you should prevent such things from the beginning! But that is difficult and not done be using private security officers guarding schools...what happens in a country, that needs such things in schools..or to save some "richer" living grounds..

[Webmaster]

the easy access to weapons is one point, but the other to take this chance and kill people. i think for european people it is very difficult to understand the right of weapon ownage. why do people need private weapons?

weapons are made for killing or hurting people. noone should gain easy access to this. but in the US it is a personal right and there is also a big lobby behind it.

[Dobber]

There are those here that feel that if they lose their right to personal weapons, they lose their freedom and other rights. I personally own 2 guns(both low caliber and both broken :biggrin:). It is really not an issue with me, I can see both views, I support neither.

[mamayourpeoplearehungry]

@Dobber - I am on the opposite side from you. I do want the right to own a weapon if I so desire. It is one of our rights. I do not own a weapon.

I do have a question though. All of you speak of people in Europe not owning weapons but when I went there years ago I was told of how the Swiss handle the military. All young people serve for a period of time and then are sent home with the gun. I was told this is part of how they remain neutral. Is this still true? What are the rules in Germany? Spain? Is hunting allowed?

If they outlaw guns in this country, the scary part is that only outlaws would then have guns.

By the way, felons are not allowed to purchase/own guns. If they have them, they got them illegally. We have a lot of laws about guns and if they were enforced it would be good. To make more and more laws and not enforce any of them is silly and will only turn law abiding citizens into criminals.

I don't understand why the tradgies like the one at Red Lake occur. The gun was a tool but the problem goes deeper. I think it has been changes in movies, tv shows and other media that has created a culture where it's ok to pick on people because they are different, not as socially mature or adaptive. It's funny on shows like Roseanne, Seinfeld and many others but it sure doesn't model behaviors we would like aimed at us.

[mamawagonburner]

I like many others have an opinion about why things are happening today so much differently than 20 or 30 years ago. My personal opinion is that there has been so much interference in the dicipline of children when they are small and learning values, that the kids in some sense really don't know right from wrong. The morals of people have changed drastically as well. When I was growing up (back in the covered wagon days) we were taught to RESPECT those who were older and wiser than we were and if we didn't we got our butts busted or our mouths washed out with soap! I'm not talking abuse, just dicipline when needed! There is a quote of "spare the rod,spoil the child". We weren't allowed to run loose like a bunch of wildcats. Granted many families are now required to have two incomes which put a big stress on family values and supervision. But without supervision Red Lake is what results. As far as guns go, guns don't kill people, people kill people with guns(and knives and bombs and poison and hundreds of other ways). I agree with mamayourpeoplearehungry that to own a gun is guarenteed in this country by the constitution and I for one own several. I won't give them up willingly.

[Moryarity]

[QUOTE=mamayourpeoplearehungryI do have a question though. All of you speak of people in Europe not owning weapons but when I went there years ago I was told of how the Swiss handle the military. All young people serve for a period of time and then are sent home with the gun. I was told this is part of how they remain neutral. Is this still true? What are the rules in Germany? Spain? Is hunting allowed?


[/QUOTE]

I don´t know the rules in Swiss, but in Germany you are not allowed to own a weapon without a permission and even if you get one, you are not allowed to own automatically or half-automtically weapons.....our soldiers don´t get there weapons after they quit....

Hunting is only allowed for people with permission....only in certain seasons and only a special number of animals, depending on the hunting grounds..but there are straic rules, you need to have a permission to own the weapon, must not be previously convicted and many other things.....

@Mamawagonburner: that is exactly the kind of argumentation we in Europe don´t understand..why do you want to own weapons..wanting to own them, means wanting tu use them.....does it make you feel save to have the right to own weapons or something like that..then you should remember htat all other can also own weapons...owning weapons without being a polic officer a soldier or a security man is not necessary..by the way, even security man need permission to wear a weapon here..

[RoadRunner]

The problem with weapons (including such knifes which can be regarded as a weapon) is that you probably do not want to use them when you purchase them. But if you have them, you could think that you could use them for your "defense". That could make a situation turn very bad: If you use your weapon against someone who does not have one, you probably exaggerate your right of self-defense, you even might kill someone (which may not have legal consequences, if you have a good lawyer, but what about your conscience?). Or you cannot handle your weapon efficiently, and it may be turned against you by your attacker who uses weapons like you use your toothbrush. Or the situation can run out of control as your weapon could escalate the situation.

And worse: You have an argument with someone. And you have a weapon. It could be used in affect, especially if you had some drinks before. Or you want to calm down the situation with the weapon, and the situation gets out of control... I have read that most incidents with weapons occur in the homes...

I think one of the most efficient "weapons" is a good and loud whistle. And a cell phone.

[Moryarity]

I think one of the most efficient "weapons" is a good and loud whistle. And a cell phone.

I agree with that...if a go home in the evening I have to pass a park....although I am not afraid, it happens sometimes, that someone else is going that way (one day a new neighbourgh of mine, who hasn´t introduced himself yet, followed me from the station till the house next to me ;))and if I feel followed I often take my cell and pretend to call somoone...