[en] Religious Arguments! Please post here!

[Noldy]

@Moryarity
A pope is always elected under the control of God. When Cardinals fraude with elections (as was so with John XXIV en JPII) there wont come out a good pope. They make wrong dicisions, just like many soldier emperors of rome almost destroyed the city of Rome.

The Humans didnt invent christianity of Jewism, God did. God didnt invent Islam, mohammed did. You think differently because youre an atheist.

@KnightlySword/Richard
IMHO, Christianity is the perfect religion. Humans ARENT perfect, thats why things can go wrong.

[Moryarity]

I had to take back a moment, because i was so frustrated about your posts..but here some facts..

first of all I am not an atheis..i am evangelist....but in a more pantheistic orientation..I do not think christianity is the perfect religion...i would rather guess Buddhismus or Daoismus and you should also consider that christianity was prohibited in some far eastern countries becaus of its claim for absoluteness and for its rule, that it has "the one" true god......

and about your sentence, that god invendted christianity and not the humans..so you cannot turn that argument the other way round and say it is not so for muslims.....I mean our religion is based on a guy, that had another religion (he was a jew not "christian"!) htat no mother would have as a son in law nowadays....

and concerning your mosques..be proud of it..I am also a friend of muslimic lessons in school..if htere are katholic ones, why shouldn´t there be jewish, muslimic etc. ones....same right for all religions.......in Germany it is prohibited to wear a bandanna in class..thats a shame! because crucufixes are still allowed in classes....

[Noldy]

My apoligises. You did sound like one :biggrin:

:cheers:

[Günter]

But I really want to have any arguments about female priests..
Well, why don't you look around simply? You would find that Protestants have female priests, and they argue with the same book as their Catholic brethren in Christianity, i.e. the Bible. Strange enough, no? :scratch:

and why should priests not be allowed to marry...just because some fanatic pope (Benedikt VIII) decided it in the 11th century.....
Well, the new pope calls himself also Benedict and usually a nickname points to a program... :eek:

[Moryarity]

I ´v never disagreed with these points..maybe you got me wrong?

[Noldy]

Anyway, to come back on the crusades:
The Crusades were a JUST war. They were an act of self-defence.

From Arabia, Muslims have been terrorising Jerusalem and other Christian countries that have been Christian for a long time. When Caliph Omar conquered Jerusalem in 638, the city had been Christian for over three centuries. Soon after, the Prophet's disciples invaded and destroyed the glorious churches of Egypt, first, and then of North Africa, causing the extinction of Christianity in places that had had Bishops like St. Augustine. Later it was the turn of Spain, Sicily and Greece, and the land that would eventually become Turkey, where the communities founded by St. Paul himself were turned into ruins. The Byzantime Empire was reduced to little more than Greece. If the Jerusalem massacre of 1099 is brought forward, as always, Mohammed II's action in Otranto (Italy) in 1480 must not be forgotten, a raw example of a bloody funeral procession of sufferings.
The Christian countries of Europe were clearly justified in defending themselves against Moslem attacks and also in going on the offensive in order to prevent future attacks. Never, no never, did they enter Arabia, the Islam homeland.

You must understand that the Crusades were necessary for the existence of Christianity. Without the Crusades, I think Europe was all Muslim and our science and technology would be as far as that of Iraq now. The Crusaders had every right to prevent the lands where Jesus had walked from being desecrated.

Dont let the massacres in Jerusalem and Constantinople mislead you. The Crusades were just. Godefroy of Bouillon condemned the Jerusalem massacre, Simon de Mont (or Montfort, i dunno) condemmned the Constantinople massacre. We must all condemn these massacres, but NEVER condemn the crusades.

[Günter]

I ´v never disagreed with these points..maybe you got me wrong?
Nope, I got you right, just wanted to confirm you ... :go:

Anyway, to come back on the crusades:
The Crusades were a JUST war. ...
No war can be just, per definition, since every war is conducted in the interest of one party. But I'm afraid that if you go on like this I will soon start to defend the next djihad as a "just" war! :nono:

[Noldy]

if you can call an act of self-defence war. But if you dont want to read on, its your problem ;)

[Moryarity]

Anyway, to come back on the crusades:
They were an act of self-defence.

From Arabia, Muslims have been terrorising Jerusalem and other Christian countries that have been Christian for a long time. .


Sorry, but "self-defence" is something totally different..even before court you would not come along with that...to walk several thousand miles to a foreign country and have a war there, is not an act of self defence..it is a war!


and to the second point...well the religion there was jewish or the one of the roman conquereres..you can not say " have been christian a long time"..it were merely a few centuries.....christianity was never the original religion of jerusalem..so why claim a right to "protect" it in the name of that religion before another...as i stated earlier crusades where simply a tactic to keep ursupators out of the own country and get wealthy...in fact..the "virgin Mary" myths where also only invented to justify war...befor the crusades no one even thought about it...

[binchen]

As far as I know it is not mentioned in the bible that women are not allowed to be priests.

My rligion teacher (he is a catholic priest) said that it was said than becuase of the position of women then. Nowadays women and men have equal rights so it should be possible to let women be priests. Further more my teacher said that if you would do today excactly what they did at the time of Jesus only fishers from Israel should be allowed to be priests.
But actually I don't really care if women are allowed to be priests or not. To me ot seems more important to allow precaution. At least condoms.

[Günter]

if you can call an act of self-defence war. But if you dont want to read on, its your problem ;)
Hitler also called the invasion of Poland an act of self-defence, and every war needed its ideology to evict remorses. Christians were always champions in this "sport"...

[Noldy]

Hitler was wrong indeed :go:
Does that make every other self-defence injust? The difference imo is that Hitler was wrong, and the Christians right. Because Christians frequently got threatened, there were several self-defences. Its because of bad people who were too fanatic in this and let things go out of hand, which makes the entire cause injust in the eyes of people like you.

[Moryarity]

what makes it injust, is that people, who do not live even near that area, claim a right to defend it against "enemies" and make war upon them..travelling a thousand miles and still call it self defence....although none of them was ever threatened....

[FrankishKnight]

Webmaster couldn't handle the pressure and closed the thread :nono:

[Dobber]

Don't start it over here and get this one closed also! And if there is any question you have of me concerning my stance use PM!

[Angryminer]

The thread was temporarily closed because the temper was too hot.
Think of it as a half-time break :wink: .

Angryminer

[Richard]

Anyway, to come back on the crusades:
The Crusades were a JUST war. They were an act of self-defence.

From Arabia, Muslims have been terrorising Jerusalem and other Christian countries that have been Christian for a long time. When Caliph Omar conquered Jerusalem in 638, the city had been Christian for over three centuries. Soon after, the Prophet's disciples invaded and destroyed the glorious churches of Egypt, first, and then of North Africa, causing the extinction of Christianity in places that had had Bishops like St. Augustine. Later it was the turn of Spain, Sicily and Greece, and the land that would eventually become Turkey, where the communities founded by St. Paul himself were turned into ruins. The Byzantime Empire was reduced to little more than Greece. If the Jerusalem massacre of 1099 is brought forward, as always, Mohammed II's action in Otranto (Italy) in 1480 must not be forgotten, a raw example of a bloody funeral procession of sufferings.
The Christian countries of Europe were clearly justified in defending themselves against Moslem attacks and also in going on the offensive in order to prevent future attacks. Never, no never, did they enter Arabia, the Islam homeland.

You must understand that the Crusades were necessary for the existence of Christianity. Without the Crusades, I think Europe was all Muslim and our science and technology would be as far as that of Iraq now. The Crusaders had every right to prevent the lands where Jesus had walked from being desecrated.

Dont let the massacres in Jerusalem and Constantinople mislead you. The Crusades were just. Godefroy of Bouillon condemned the Jerusalem massacre, Simon de Mont (or Montfort, i dunno) condemmned the Constantinople massacre. We must all condemn these massacres, but NEVER condemn the crusades.

I want to point something in the 2nd paragraph. During this time the muslims had lighted cities/streets, while euope was far behine. Not to mention that most of the technology after the crusade was brought from the muslim world/ glass, achitecture ect.. And who said iraq is far behine in technology now?
It might not have the technology might of U.S. but that has absolutly nothign to do with religion, is more of political reasons. I keep seen your bright excusses and facts, and everytime they are less and less part of the subject.
Why not condem the crusades, why they were "just"? they commited the same and worst attrocities against jews and muslims, so why they are just? Because they killed the enemys of christians?

Also, "god" didnt create religion, men did. Christianity begined when supposuly jesus was killed by the romans. And jesus was a jew :wink: . Muhammed was a man just like you or me, he was just a philosopher that people fallow. I belive that maybe this people did existed,(jesus/ muhammed ect...) but they were just people that were leaders/ charismatic that people fallowed for their philosophys, and when they died his fallowers did what they did, begined the religon. Religion has been on seens the begining of men, which evolution brought him from mokeys. Religion has been a way to controll people allways and will allways be. And in my opinion religion was invented By men to confort themselves, to have a reason of why to be "good", to have a reason of why to kill each other , to have a reason.

Another thing, why is christianity perfect? What makes it perfect? Christians have done the same as muslims, or any other religius group. What makes them perfect? just because they are christians?
I just can't understand why they can't see that they all workship the same god, just in deffernt ways.!!!!!!!!!!! Are people blind?

Oh, you said that the Byzantine Empire was reduced to greece, What about the roman empire? One of the major reasons of why it fell was because of the christians. And As far AS I know byzanthine was odtodox and not accepted by the christian world :wink: .

One more thing you said that when popes had used somekind of froud to win they make bad decicions like JPII. Jp is john paul II? Well if he made so many bad deccisions why did people from all over the world beloved him? :scratch: Then you'r saing that christians like popes that make wrong decisions? Please answer this.

And to finish the soup. Jerusalem was the home of jews. Jewism begined there, Well the name says it alll. Jerusalem was the jewish name of that region. Their country was called Judia( if i can recall, not sure is something like judia thu) Then came the romans, and set rule, then christians and thye called this the holy place, because jesus died there acordin to the bible.

[Moryarity]

what happened to the "new pope"thread?

[Webmaster]

i deleted the thread, after dobber (the thread starter) asked for it

[Moryarity]

Well, I guess something happened after I quit yesterday..but as Dobber asked for it, I guess it was better so:go: