View Full Version : [en] Religious Arguments! Please post here!
If you have any religious arguments, please post them here and not in the threads that were started for other purposes! Thanks!
hehe, I appreciate this thread. I agree with Dobber that some threads are not for arguments. I son't wanna argue. I just would like to ask few things:
1) what good did the crusades brought to the world? I've red many books about them and to be honest the main things brought to Europe were
courteasy - an honor towards women (brought from muslim world!), improvements in castle architectire, experience that religious intolearancy leads only to masacres(already known from Spain, but how many prople have learned of it? see 30years war etc.) and tangerines.
2) calling believers of otherreligions cruel is not a way to dialogue. Holocaust was justified by the fact that Jews were cruel towards Jesus Christ, 9/11 was justified by cruelty of crusaders. Killing of thousands innocent people in Afghanistan and Iraq was justified by cruelty of 9/11. Strikes of Israeli army are being justified by cruelty of suicide bombers who proclaim their attacks as revenge for those strikes.
No matter who has started.
Untill both sides don't confess they did something wrong (John Paul II apologise for the crusades, apologises of Germans for Holocasut) there won't be a place for dialogue for peace! Now it's turn for muslims to apologise. If you call them cruel murderers and behave towards them like that yu can be sure you will find some that will be but you will on your way overlook houndreds of those who will just think "yes, another dumb intolerant guy who doesn't know us" the same like Usama bin Laden sees every member of Western society as potential crusader. Are we? I'm not!
Hitler was mad. Cruelty from Jews against Christ is no reason for massacre, at least not in catholisism.
It was you who took the word cruel in you mouth first, towards the crusaders, not me.
Dont think christians were barbarians and muslims ultra noble people. Innoncent pelgrims who traveled to Jerusalem for penitention got slaughtered on the way by Muslim authorities. Muslims massacred Christians too. This, however, doesnt mean all Muslims were like that though, just like massacres during crusades makes Christians barbarians.
I havnt said all muslims are cruel. Im only saying muslims in the middle-ages could actually do the same terrible things.
Moryarity
19-04-2005, 09:23
To take over the "one god" question: I always considered the sentence "there shall be only one god and non beneath him" (I dont know, how this sentence is translated in english speaking bibles)´says, that all gods addicted by jews, muslims, christians etc, are in fact the same god only in a different kind of appearence and not, that the god the christians adore is the one true god.
To crusades: As Shakespear rightly said in Henry IV....to weaken the opponents in your own country, make war in foreign countries...and nothing more, where the crusades...wars, started by greedy european monarchs, pretending to "clean" the city of jesus from foreign ursupators and getting a lot of money by the way, while there enemies have a lot to do in foreign countries.....
And....if you are so conservative catholic..maybe you should stop using the numbers, we take over from the arabians, start to build romainc cathedrals again, because gothik was invented by mostly arabian influences who brought the ribbed vault to europe, stop using glas in your windows...also a non christian invention......
it seems, that we only take the things that please us from other cultures..and then, after a while simply forget, that it was infact such a "hated" culture, that invented them......maybe we should all start to be more tolerant and think about how many good things many arabian, asiatic mathematicians and scientists brought to a rather dump europe, still living in framhouses, while other people built pyramides, hanging gardens of Babylon, lighthous of Pharos etc, 2-3000 years earlier...
It was you who took the word cruel in you mouth first, towards the crusaders, not me.
Dont think christians were barbarians and muslims ultra noble people. Innoncent pelgrims who traveled to Jerusalem for penitention got slaughtered on the way by Muslim authorities. Muslims massacred Christians too. This, however, doesnt mean all Muslims were like that though, just like massacres during crusades makes Christians barbarians.
I havnt said all muslims are cruel. Im only saying muslims in the middle-ages could actually do the same terrible things.
I said that crusades were cruel and not only the pope, but we all who feel as successors of catholic kingdoms should apologise for that.
Killing innocent pilgrims by muslim authorities was propagandistic lie. They were protecting them as they could. They had nice profit from pilgrims. Those who were able to travell so far were only the rich ones and they were soending their money in Jerusalem and Holy Land(no, don't imagine it like today's tourists, it's incomparable, but they spent some money there). Muslim leaders had no reason to stop this income by killing them(if they return, maybe they'll motivate many others to come there too). Muslims were cruel too, of course. But people of eastern Europe would be cruel towards Mongols too(if they could catch them) when Mongols murdered whole city of christians after they promissed them free way somewhere else.
Many times christians asked Muslims for ransom, they out all money together and sold ALL out of christian imprisonment. But then (when true christians got their money) all muslims were masacred. When muslims conquered christian town they offered the same, who can pay for himself, he can leave, who can't, he will die. And wealthy christians then left the city with wagons of gold and left their con-believers there to be killed!
Saladin was offering christians knightly conditions(better for him than for christians of course) but kind of compromise, but they didn't agree. Mameluk reconquest was a revenge of muslims but catholics still had a chance to board ships to Italy. There was more wealth than people again on those ships!
btw, what is so bad in women priests? are woman worse than pedophil or gay priests? no, not all priests are pedophils and gays, right. But are women worse than men? what is the reason? why can't they be priestesses? tell me one single rational reason! is Sinead O'Connor worse than any other priest?
and what is bad in using condoms? say in europe. 2 partners live together, are faithfull but don't want to have more than 2 children, but they love each otehr and having sex is one of the most beautiful ways how to share your love! Would you prefere if they don't use condom, have unwanted baby which they can't afford to buy school etc., so they leave him. Is that better than sharing love with condom?
what are you talking about? Youre one bunch of misunderstandings.
I NEVER said i hated muslims in any way. Arent the muslims now using all kinds of cars and other inventions, invented by the western world? (which has christian bases)
Nothing is wrong with adapting inventions of other cultures. In fact, seeing your arguments, you should turn to the muslims where many refuse to adept democracy cuz its a western invention.
What i do hate, is when people massacre. Whether its muslims massecing christians or the other way around. Just dont say muslims never massacred anyone, never violated human rights and never raped 12 year old girls. Try to look at different sides of an event. You only look at the bad naughty evil European nobles who were out for money and killed all those poor little innocent muslims.
Killing innocent pilgrims by muslim authorities was propagandistic lie. They were protecting them as they could. They had nice profit from pilgrims. Those who were able to travell so far were only the rich ones and they were soending their money in Jerusalem and Holy Land(no, don't imagine it like today's tourists, it's incomparable, but they spent some money there). Muslim leaders had no reason to stop this income by killing them(if they return, maybe they'll motivate many others to come there too). Muslims were cruel too, of course. But people of eastern Europe would be cruel towards Mongols too(if they could catch them) when Mongols murdered whole city of christians after they promissed them free way somewhere else.
Muslims authorities saw it, and allowed it. Just like you, they thought Europeans were dirty barbarians.
Stop summming up the goods and bads of cultures. We all know that Muslims, Christians, Mongols, Romans and Huns all did some things terribly wrong, wich doesnt mean the whole culture is damned. (though i do tend so with huns). Just dont neglect any of them when forming an opinion.
I refered to Mameluk masacre of christians, I know that muslims masacred many people as well as christians. But in case of crusades i was a revenge and the numbers of victims were far lower than christian masacres on muslims.
Democracy is not an invention like a car or gunpowder, or bookprint or a wheel. it is style of rule such as theocracy, totality tribal organisation. Each of those styles fits to some kind of society.
Democracy fits to liberal and pluralitar society, tyrany fits to conservative or aristocratic society as well as oligarchy or theocracy. But it is for another discussion.
I wait for rational reasons against female priests. Why didn't you give me any? I'll tell you: there is no defendable rational reason. The only reson is ingnorance of conservativism!
EDIT: muslim authorities saw it and fought against it. But christian chronicles don't mention it because then crusades would lose any kind of moral legitimity. Muslim authorities were in protection of christian pilgrims much more successfull than catholic authorities when "protecting" jews against pogroms all around Europe! It was several bandit groups who were attacking christian pilgrims, not masses or whole towns of catholics who masacred jewish ghettos.
All western religions(islam, judaism and christianity) were/are kind of cruel. History of latin christianism(catholicism and it's fractions like protestantism) and presence of islam are the most cruel in oposite to quite peaceful orthodoxy and then all eastern religions as well as humanism.
Both of cruel periods were in times of demographic expansion of the society. European lasted (with breaks between 1300-1500) for 500 years.
The only diference is that west christians had political power and muslims don't have it now. So they can't use political power for their expansion.
So they use new kind of fight-terrorism what is non-conventional weapon, such as Europeans used non-conventional weapons when they had them:
bow in times of swords, guns in times of bows, tanks in times of guns, atomic bomb in times of bombs.
Don't need to mention than all non-conventional weapons are much more cruel than conventional.
Moryarity
19-04-2005, 15:10
Well, both sides did great cruelties..and if both don´t stop it..this will last a thousand years on.......nobody is innocent and i guess we would have a hard time finding out who exactly was the one, who did the first strike..we will never be able to find that out..and it doesn´t matter, because it should stop no matter who began it.....islamic terrorists should stop killing innocent people with bombs....christian americans should stop killing innocent islamics for what terrorists did and so on....simply stop it.
and i do not sum uo the good and bad things of cultures, for that is impossible..it are always only good and bad things of single persons....but if you state, that kissing the koran was not a noble deed, and you want a more catholic way of a life and a more conservative pope then there is a light undertone in that, that you do not consider this behavior as a good step to a newer, more progressive catholicism..
You know what i mean with invented democracy. Real Democracy was first introduced by the greeks (western world). 3000 years later, many muslims still refuse to adept democracy.
As for female priests: it is written in the bible that women are not allowed to do the same things as a man. This also is stated around being a priest. I dont know the exact frases, but you can ask a bible expert for that.
Are you saying muslims massacred more than christians? How can YOU possibly know. There have been countless of cruel incidents on both muslim side and christian side. For example, Mohammed massacred 600 jewish men and banned even more women and children when fighting against Mekka.
And please, dont come again with a full list of crualties done by christians because i can sum up another list of crualties by muslims, it bring us anywhere.
You know what i mean with invented democracy. Real Democracy was first introduced by the greeks (western world). 3000 years later, many muslims still refuse to adept democracy.
As for female priests: it is written in the bible that women are not allowed to do the same things as a man. This also is stated around being a priest. I dont know the exact frases, but you can ask a bible expert for that.
Are you saying muslims massacred more than christians? How can YOU possibly know. There have been countless of cruel incidents on both muslim side and christian side. For example, Mohammed massacred 600 jewish men and banned even more women and children when fighting against Mekka.
And please, dont come again with a full list of crualties done by christians because i can sum up another list of crualties by muslims, it bring us anywhere.
easy mate :go: counting down everyone masacred doesn't lead anywhere, as Moryarity said :go: I was still refering to crusades anyway :wink:
As for democracy:
1)Muslims are here not longer than 1500 years
2) doesn't it may mean also something else(not that muslims and chinese - who in fact were and probably also once again will be higher than we - are dumb)? that democracy is not the only and ultimate ruling system that everyone must accept? I am sure it isn't! In diferent societies there is diferent mentality and political system reflects mentality and system of values. Democracy is (along with another thigs) based on individualism above state and family and system of Estatic society(aristocracy, bourgeoasy, farmers and clergy) what is typical for latin europe, but less for orthodox world, indian and chinese and muslim societies for whose this is as alien as catholic Europe say promiscuity or idea of absolute ruler-emperor.
Democracy is working effectively only in 2 non christian societies, which are indeed based on some kind estates: India and Japan. And see the problems of it in Russia where it is still in colision with "caesaropapism" or "tzardom" (Peter the Great-Lenin-Gorbi-Putin)
If in bible is written: women are less then men and they are here only to give birth to your children, would you agree? maybe it is written there(creation of Eve doesn't much support equality). Do YOU personaly find women equal to men?
Women and Men should be treated equally overall, but are not equal. They have different capacities. Just like men are stronger, women can be smarter. Here on my gymnasium, there are like 2/3 female and 1/3 male.
Because I am catholic I believe in the Bible, and instead of trying finding reasons why the Bible is wrong, I try to find reasons why the Bible is right. It really opens alot more to me, especially when I hear many arguments against catholisism as today, catholicism is crippling down.
It may be of bad english, but I dont really understand what you said at nr 2 :bash: :scratch: sry :)
Oh and as for Muslims, I know that there cam Muslims only around 620, but after all the time that democracy is used, many muslims still refuse it.
Moryarity
19-04-2005, 17:20
I live in a democracy and it is not a very good system indeed..you elect every now and then..but bno matte rwho you elect, ait always stays the same..only real democracy would be to have elctions about every decision that concernes the state and we both know that that is rather unrealistic.....as a catholic, you should rather insist one a theocracy ;)...but beside that, doesn´t it say in the bible "give the emperor what is from the emperor and give god, what is from god" so it is useless to talk about political systems as the religion itself gives us the answer to the question..that the system of state doesn´t matter...
Moryarity
19-04-2005, 17:26
concerning, that man are stronger than woman..that is also not true..man have more power, but woman have more endurence
and that woman and man are not equal is true..but is that an argumentthan woman should not be priests? I would say no....is there anything that speaks agains it?
I personally dont find democracy the best eather. I would like to see state and church united.
the knightly sword
19-04-2005, 21:59
honestly stop the religious arguements. there is really nothing to argue about. no religion can be exacly perfect and preformed well by people. there is always loopholes and dark spots in every religion. no religion has an spot free history. almost every religion have brought fights and wars . but honestly i think god made religions to make the cruel world a better place.they werent made so people have reasons to kill and fight each other as many polticians use. polticians and many powerfull people abuse religion. which is totally wrong and sinfull.i know this i wrote doesnt have something to do with thread but i just had to say it !!!!!.
TKS, the thread is for religious arguments, I think your post fits that requirement!
No!No!NO!. Why unite religion and state. What does religion has to do with politics??? Remember in the pass they were united and only brought chaos. They have nothing to do with each other, and the why muslims don't accept democracy is simple, Each group of people has their own culture, they adapt to what they think is the best way, doesn't mean that just because was ivented in the western world is bad for the east. Is the way of thinking things that make things be the way they are.
Also, I said in the other thread that i don't believe in any religion what so ever, for it has allway been corrupted in a way or another. Why? simple, we aren't perfect and until the they we are perfect there won' be any perfect religion, any perfect society nor any perfect system of laws.
As for the crusades they brought spices and the such which created a taste for them, which would lead to th later explorations. They kind of brought a good thing but then lead to another bad thing, which was the killing of 1000s of natives. And it will continue this way until the day that all this religions understand and accept once and for all they they all worship the same guy in the sky and fear the same idiot under the earth, For all religions worship the same god in their own way and cultural way of thinking.
Moryarity
20-04-2005, 09:50
in fact....where in the bible is said, that hell is under the earth. :scratch: ..i ever wondered about that. :silly: .i have never read it..maybe someone can tell me the place, where that is said.......
and to perfect systems..they will never exist, as those that create them are human and human will always fail.....
But I really want to have any arguments about female priests..I mean..femals friars are allowed..they are called nuns :biggrin: so way should female priests not be allowed...and why should priests not be allowed to marry...just because some fanatic pope (Benedikt VIII) decided it in the 11th century.....or why is the pope so almighty and should be the head of all catholics...because it was decided so 3 centuries later....and after they noticed, that sometimes the pope is wrong but could not admit that, they decided that pope can not fail some centuries later...so what of original christianity has not ben altered since the beginnings in favour to the popes?
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