View Full Version : [en] Drawings of a profet
hawk_knight
05-02-2006, 21:47
(unfortunately I don't know the character of the newspaper)
thanks for the asnwer Elvain :go:
and an answer to your question it was the prophet who was on the drawing
and an answer to your question it was the prophet who was on the drawing
thanks, but Webmaster's answer was right I meant character-orientation...
if it was satiric or serious conservative, socialist or liberal etc...
so thanks, Webmaster :go:
Traveller
06-02-2006, 08:27
Ok, I don't want to argue about it, Elvain. You have your views, I have mine. You love them, I hate them. Just to note one thing - I respect Islam in its true (at least according to some) and peaceful form, like f.e. in Turkey where Turks are definitely not so..., but the fanaticism of the minority (especially in the Middle East) makes it up for the whole of the peaceful majority. And yes - we could have demonstrations (like f.e. the anti-globalist ones), but I say to you that we would definitely not have mass-suicide-bombings, especially among civilians, especially among our own countrymen. Yes, we have had such single cases (Japanese-like airplane-kamikazes during WWII, but note - in war time and only against enemy airplanes and such cases could be counted on the fingers of one hand) and terrorism is also not unknown thing to us (the movement for the liberation of Macedonia in the beginning of XX century did quite some assassinations and sadly - even against our own politics), but Christianity and our values and way of life would never allow occupied ordinary Bulgarians to blow themselves up in the name of Jesus or whoever. It's just a difference of cultures, maybe. And maybe it is. But although the "West" has many and many flaws and horrible sides, which I despise and hate, the Islamic East has even more. And I can't think of how can you not see it. Or maybe I'm the one not seeing things? Maybe... But at least I know that I'm not controlled by so obviously censored and radical medias (at least the Western medias are much better "secretly" censored) and if I ever blow myself up, it would never be among innocent civilians. No matter if we're occupied or not. But now you make me think about one thing and I thank yo for that - it reminded me how you appreciate one thing only when you lose it. And now, when trying to put myself on the place of the fanatics in the Arab lands, I realise I really appreciate the freedom of thought, of speech, of democracy and so on... Anyway, I don't think there's a reason to argue anymore, cuz neither of us would change his view...
P.S. here's (http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/images/muhammedwesterga_1.jpg) that drawing of Mohammed if someone still wants to see it (but be careful - there might be an angry Moslem nearby!)...
P.P.S. Btw you might want to see one documentary movie (if you can find it somewhere) called "Why the Arabs hate the West", about "the vastly different analysis that Western and Middle Eastern media give of the same events". I wonder who's the right one...
Edit: Oh, and one thing to note: I think I do understand the Moslems being offended by these drawings, but I also do think that they should want an appology from the papers and not torch the Danish embassy in Beirut! The caricatures may have been a wrong thing to do, but the Moslem reaction is even more stupid, IMHO.
No, I can't say I love them (all). I can love only those I know but I don't know them all :wink:
And I am happy to know that I can honestly say that there's nobody I hate.
Can I ask you how is it possible to hate 1 billion of people just because of their religion and culture? I'm glad you live in comfort in society that is declining and not growing. Because it's such hate what causes things that are happening now in Beirut.
And do I understand you well that christianism is better because it does not allow suicide bombing but just bombing where the murderer survives and watches it all from behind. I see no reason why this is better.But although the "West" has many and many flaws and horrible sides, which I despise and hate, the Islamic East has even more. And I can't think of how can you not see it. Or maybe I'm the one not seeing things?I know about it and I dislike it. I just try to see it in cultural context and understand it that way. And then it is possible to understand it.
But at least I know that I'm not controlled by so obviously censored and radical mediashow do you know they are? that you see anti-American deomnstration in TV Iraq or Iran does that mean what? That the people are manipulated by their medias? maybe, some of them... that they hate Americans? maybe, some of them... That someone promissed them something if they go? maybe, some of them...
and btw we are controled by the media same way. Our media just have diferent goal. Not to force you to kill somebody, but to buy this and that product. If our societies are in such tension, believe me we would be much more agressive. Just look at the agressivity now when our problem is to have enough cjildren to ballance the population... what if opur problem would be that we can't feed our children?
(at least the Western medias are much better "secretly" censored) and if I ever blow myself up, it would never be among innocent civilians.those who do it live under much worse preasure than you and I can imagine. And those who can do it could be compared to members of christian sects who are cut off normal life.
Edit: Oh, and one thing to note: I think I do understand the Moslems being offended by these drawings, but I also do think that they should want an appology from the papers and not torch the Danish embassy in Beirut! The caricatures may have been a wrong thing to do, but the Moslem reaction is even more stupid, IMHO.
I agree! The blowed up embassy is stupid and too strong reaction. I have never agreed with it and never will. And as I said. You in our culture expect that the government has nothing to do with it. They in their cultural circumstances think that the situation about media is here the same like in their homelands (note that we are much more (what does not necessarily mean better) informed about their lives societies than they are informed about us!
What I say is just:
1) they are not worse than we. 2) it is minority of people who do such things (I think that ALL Germans in 1930's were more guilty of Holocause than ALL moslems being guilty of Fundamentalist terrorism) 3) agresivity of muslim societies is not primarily caused by islam itself, but by the tension in the society (the same radicalism is also in non-moslem societies that have comparable demographical growth) - and there was same agresivity in european christion societies when the situation was comparable. 4) when europeans fought thie fights 150years ago, they could succeed so used (mostly) rebellions and fought dolduers (terrorism was there too, but as marginal)
5) fundamentalists are cutting off the rest of thier societies as they are more and more killing their own people.
Prove me that any of this is untrue and I will change my mind
Traveller
06-02-2006, 10:22
What I say is just:
1) they are not worse than we. 2) it is minority of people who do such things (I think that ALL Germans in 1930's were more guilty of Holocause than ALL moslems being guilty of Fundamentalist terrorism) 3) agresivity of muslim societies is not primarily caused by islam itself, but by the tension in the society (the same radicalism is also in non-moslem societies that have comparable demographical growth) - and there was same agresivity in european christion societies when the situation was comparable. 4) when europeans fought thie fights 150years ago, they could succeed so used (mostly) rebellions and fought dolduers (terrorism was there too, but as marginal)
5) fundamentalists are cutting off the rest of thier societies as they are more and more killing their own people.
Prove me that any of this is untrue and I will change my mind
I won't prove you anything, cuz I also agree with it.
1) "They are not worse than we". - For the peaceful Moslems I agree fully. Although, for the fanatics it's another thing. And it's their own fault that they have become fanatics. Social tensions might be a factor too, but they are the ones, who have allowed it. Otherwise, there are pretty much the same social tensions here in the Balkans too - ethnical, historical, political, economical etc. crysis. But the worst thing we've done (in Bulgaria, I mean) is the "revival process" from the end of the communist rule when the Turks were forced to change their names with Bulgarian ones. Hell, we haven't even fought a war since WWII! True, the Yugoslavian wars started and ended badly, but I think that still there was no such extreme fanaticism there. Mass killings of civilians - yes, and it's horrible. But that's a different case of fanaticism, which is known to every human nation and being. But the Bosniaks are Moslems too, so I agree that maybe the fault is not in Islam itself, but in the way it is interpreted. "European Islam" (if I may say so for Bosnia and Turkey, but without Albania, where there were extremists too) tends to be more peaceful, unlike the Middle Eastern and Arab one. So maybe we could say it so: Islam is the candle, which, if being put close to the "high social tension" gunpowder, could become dangerous.
2) "It is minority of people who do such things" - I already agreed with this, although this minority is much louder than the majority. Maybe that's why we pay more attention to it - the bad news are better than the good news for modern medias, so extremists have more "public". But I ask, what are the majority of the peaceful Moslems doing against the fanatics with the torches? Because their inactivity gives the name of extremists to them all, no matter if there are peaceful Moslems or not!
Webmaster
06-02-2006, 10:39
3rd reich!
1933 hitler claimed power. many politicans tried to stop him, but were arrested and killed, others underestimated him.
after the "matchergreifung" medias and society become part of the propaganda ("gleichschaltung"). the question here is, why could a whole nation be mislead?
but opposing the NSDAP and it's other organisations (SA, SS, RSD, Gestapo) was dangerous. nearly all payed with their lives.
but on the other hands many germans in this time wanted a revenge of WWI and "suffered" from the treaty of versaille. so they embraced the power and opportunities offered by the nazis. them are guilty!
comparable to fundamentalism?
if people active support it, yes. not acting against it, maybe also dangerous for themself. so why sacrifice themself? is this really guilt? don't think so.
they have also an other culture of "protest" ... they don't go out and make demonstrations against suicide attackers as long as only "unbelievers" are killed. that is a difference compared to modern european nations.
// EDIT
nice artikel comparing paris 1572 with ramallah 2000
http://www.heise.de/tp/r4/artikel/21/21940/1.html
(german)
the comparison between Nazis and fundamentalists was made to show how generalizations are bad.
Yes, the diference is that people in Europe tried to do something against it.
But do we know if there are honest protests against terrorism in world of islam? That very few informations we get form ME is mostly about attacks (now mostly only if the victims are from the West).
I know a jouralist who travels to Middle east and writes into one of 4 best czech papers. And he told me that many times when he wrote an article about some positive or pro-western action, it was refused by his boss coz it wasn't the style of information people expect from the middle east so the prople (readers) wouldn't be interested in such article.
The same it is in reverse. Journal in Saudi Arabia doesn't release an article about anti-Iraqi-war demonstrations all over Europe, but they release an article that a student in Germany gunned his classmates and teacher because it is the style of information people there are intersted in and want to read.
So I ask. Does the absence of such information in our media mean it is not happening?
Those people deeply respect us for our skills and also many of our values (those they can understand), but they disrespect us for our secularism. Just as we disrespect them for their religiousity.
And such senseles provocations like the drawings only make things worse...
We shold know from history that 1 radical can easily cause a war that kills millions of innocent people. So we should be carefull in judging radicals compared to the rest of society.
Webmaster
06-02-2006, 12:29
wise words indeed!
sure there are moderate islamict people and actions. they also now, that they need a whole world as market. so, economics and education are the gate to freedom or can be.
and the islam is itself is modern religion. correct me if i am wrong, but the koran doesn't allow suicide attacks and also urges to respect christians and jews.
I'm not sure if free market must definitely lead to democracy (China is proving it may not be the only way) but it is without any doubt the best way...
The Koran is very dificult. It says that if a moslem is in pagan country he shuold try to find christian or jew as the closest "relatives in religion" (as they are monotheists, btw Jesus is the second most important prophet for islam!) but somewhere else it speaks words of hate against jews. Koran is very controversive and somewhere it is even contradicting.
Sure that suicide attackers are not allowed by the koran, but there is also said that those who die fighting for god will go straight to heaven (but then they'll be judged like all the others, they just don't need to pass very narrow "bridge/path" called "sirat"). The same is said about women who die during birht-giving and small children.
Of course it was not meant that peoiple should kill small children and women giving the birth and that moslems shuold die in the name of God, but that those who will die this way will have his mercy.
But someone can interpret it that way :sad:
Webmaster
06-02-2006, 13:22
that's the main "difficulty" in religions! you have to interpret and believe.
this one of the strongest feelings besides love and hate
About caricature.
It's an insult. Yes I know caricatures are ironic, but when it begins to touch religion subjects.. :secruity:
Noone should somehow criticize any religion element.
Webmaster
06-02-2006, 16:14
sure there should be an uncrossable redline with religious topics.
but take a look to the US and the christian fundamentalism and the creatonists ... there is also a ironic protest like the spaghetti monster god.
where is the line?
Five people died today in Avganistan in a fight with the police during the riots. :nono:
And our ex-fellow countrymen the Bosnians announced their demostrations for tomorrow.
Webmaster
06-02-2006, 21:07
to sad ... things can be replaced ... but lives are lost forever ;(
And now the death toll begins to rise :nono:
*censured swearing*
Anyone think this will stop soon?
Webmaster
07-02-2006, 01:19
don't think so, if the muslime leader start to stop it
:sad:
some muslim authority has to stop it now...
this is too much :sad:
Traveller
07-02-2006, 08:15
:sad:
some muslim authority has to stop it now...
this is too much :sad:
But, unfortunately, afaik, the Moslem authorities are supporting it even more. Especially that Muqtada Sadr, who's supporting most of the Iraqi protests... :nono:
Edit: Btw here (http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/698) are all the drawings...
Webmaster
07-02-2006, 10:37
the real dilema is, that western nation have no way to softly force them.
if stopping help for afganistan, iraq or palestine is not an option!
But, unfortunately, afaik, the Moslem authorities are supporting it even more. Especially that Muqtada Sadr, who's supporting most of the Iraqi protests... :nono:
Edit: Btw here (http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/698) are all the drawings...
well. Unfortunately if the apology would come sooner, it may not lead so far...
the problem of muslim world at the moment is also that they have no authority (no caliph)
Shame on Atatürk :sad:
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