historical battles

[Elewyn]

Hi.

Regarding this thread (http://forum.sunflowers.de/showthread.php?s=&threadid=817) I asked myself what do we know about historical battles which are ofered in every preview of KoH such as this: "Players can play historical battles like the Battle of Hastings or random maps in skirmish mode"

So my questios are:

1. Can we engage historical battles only in multiplayer or also in single? (I know MP will be more fun, but why not have this option?)

and more important one...

2. which battles are gonna be there?

what about those:

1) Xeres de la Frontera in 711(Fall of the Visigoth kingdom. Arabs conquered Iberian peninsula)

2) Siege of Constantinople 717-718 – (Bulgarian Khan Tervel and Byzantine Emperor Teodosius III vs. the Arabs. Constantinopole was just going to be conquered when the Bulgarian cavalry came and dealed a fatal blow on the besiegers. The Muslims didn't dare to attack again for centuries)

3)Poitiers 732 (Charles Martell, majordome of king of Franks X moors. Called as the battle which stopped expansion of Islam to the Western Europe)

4) Veregava pass 811 (Bulgarian Khan Krum X Byzantine Emperor Nikeforos, most of the 60 000 Byzantine army is destroyed together with their emperor)

5)Aheloi 917,(near Aheloi river) Bulgarians angainst Byzantines total victory for Bulgarians, almost all of the Byzantine army was killed. After this battle Simeon The Great become emperor of bulgarians and greeks.

6) Lechfeld 955 (Otto I. of Saxony, Holy Roman Emperor defeated the Magyars and stopped them from plunderung europe and made them settle down to build Hungary.)

7)Kliedion 1014 (Basileios II.Bulgaroknotos, basileios Romanoi=byzantine emperor X Samuel, tzar of Bulgaria. Final battle of long war between two powerfull empires of the Balkans 14000Bulgarians killed, Bulgaria as independent state disappeared for almost 200 years)

8) Hastings 1066 (William I. duke of Normandy X Harold Godwin, king of England. Who knows the ending? :D)

9)Mantzikert 1071 (Romanos IV. Diogenes, besileios Romanoi=byzantine emperor X Seljuk Turks, first defeat of bytzantine empire against Turks who then flooded whole Asia Minor)

10)fall of Jerusalem 1099 during 1st crusade

11)Myriokefalon 1176 (Manuel Komnenos, basileios Romanoi=byzantine emperor X Seljuk Turks from Ikonion sultanate,final cut which eliminated powerful byzantine armies. The last big byzantine army defeated by Seljuks, proving their rule over Asia Minor)

12)Legnano 1176 (Friedrich/Frederick Barbarossa X Lombard league. Defeat of Holy Roman Emperor who failed when trying to rule Italy)

13) Hattin 1187 (Yussuf-ibn-Ajjub, called Salah-ad-Din, sultan of Egypt X Guy de Lusignan, king of Jerusalem. Defeat of almost all christian knights from Holy land. After Hattin, Saladin took whole Holy land (except 3 cities and few castles without any fight)

14)fall of Constantinople 1204 during 4th Crusade

15)Odrin 1205(Edirne now,Kaloian,Baldwin I of Flandres)Bulgarians against the Latins. Bulgarins win aginst the knights of the IV Crusade. Crusader's leader Baldwin was captured and died in Turnovo.

16)Las Navas de Tolosa 1212 (christian kingdoms of Iberian peninsula X moors. Destroying of moorish forces which. After this battle christians took whole peninsula except Granade in short time)

17)Bouvines 1214(Philipe Augustus, king of France X emperor Otto IV. von Braunschweig, with financial support of John, king of England. Battle proving change of western european main power. England came into chaos of weak rule, Welf dynasty’s last attempt to rule over HRE failed, Frederick II. became only emperor soon, establishing of French hegemony in XIII and first half of XIV century)

18 ) Kalka river 1223 (Russian princes defeated by Mongols. But I don't know the leaders)

19)Legnica 1241 (Henrik IV., prince of Wroclaw X Mongols. Mongol armies smashed forces of the prince of Wroclaw, who was the only one to restore kingdom of Poland. Reinforcements from Bohemia and Germany never came to help him against threatening Mongol army)

20) Moravian field/Dürnkrut 1278 (Przemysl Otokar II., king of Bohemia X Rudolf von Habsburg, german king/level before becoming an emperor, after this battle Habsburgs definitely took rule over Ausria and Styria, kept by Przemyslid, heagemon of eastern parts of HRE before this battle.Przemysl died and his lands came into chaos. First step to Habsburg hegemony in 16th century)

21) fall of Akkon 1291 fall of the last christian stronghold in the "holy land")

22) Courtrai/Kortrijk 1302 (also happened in Flandres, Philipe IV. the Fair/Philippe le Bel against flemish municipal army of ?Ghent and Brugge?, first big defeat of knightly cavalry by municipal army)

23) Crécy 1346 (Edward III. of England X Philippe VI. de Valois, king of France. First significant defeat of french knights in 100years war)

24) Kulikovo 1380 (Dmitri Donskoi, prince of Moscow X Mamai, ruler of Golden Horde), wictory of Russians, led by Dmitri, after which they finally got rid of mongolian influence.

25) Kosovo polje 1389 (defeat of "christian" balkan realms against ottoman turks. end of serbian tzardom.

26) Angora 1402, (Timur Lenk X Bayezid, ottoman sultan. Ottomans were beaten and it delayed fall of the Byzantine empire)

27)Grünwald/Tannenberg/Zalgiris 1410 (Ulrich von Jungingen, GrandMaster of theTeutonic order X Vytautas (Witold), GrandDuke of Lithuania and Vladislav Jagielo, king of Poland, glorioous loss of teutonic order)

28 ) Agincourt 1415 (Henry V., king of England X Charles VI., king of France, magnificent win of english bowmen, many of french elite noble knights died)

29) Varna 1444 (Vladislav Varenchik, king of Poland X Ottoman Turks, defeat of last crusader Vladislav, who was lost during the battle)

30) fall of Constantinople 1453 (Final defeat of Byzantine Empire. I didn’t wrote it before because there was gunpowder used, but…)

Maybe one important note. We should know how those battles happened, because if not, it’s impossible to make their simulation. Then I know only Kleidion, Myriokefalon, Hattin, fall of Constantinople 1204, Bouvines, Moravian field/Dürnkrut, Hastings and Crécy

[Bagpipe]

Thanx, Elewyn. I was just preparing to start similar thread :D but I was to lazy to write so much...

Your list of battles is great, but I'd like to add Grunwald, so...

Grunwald (Tanenberg, Zalgiris) 1410(Lithuania under Vytautas (Witold)+Poland (Vladislav Jagielo), army including lithuanians, poles, russians, czechs, tartars X Teutonic Order(Ulrich von Jungingen)+knights from almost all Western Europe)

[Krum The Terrible]

Congratulations for Elewyn and his topic:D Can you join and this
battle. Aheloi(917,near Aheloi river) Bulgarians angainst Byzantines total victory for Bulgarians, almost all of the Byzantine army was killed. After this battle Simeon The Great become emperor of bulgarians and greeks.
And This one.Odrin(1205,Edirne now,Kaloian,Baldwin I of Flandres)Bulgarians against the Latins. Bulgarins win aginst the knights of the IV Crusade. Crusader's leader Baldwin was captured and died in Turnovo.

[timurlenk]

great work :cheers:


maybe add

- 955 battle of lechfeld, otto defeated the magyars. (stopped them from plunderung europe and made them settle down to build hungary.)

- 1066 battle of hastings, victory of the normans (william) over the anglo saxons (harold). (thats why robin hood hated the normans :p )

- 1291 fall of akkon, the last christian stronghold in the "holy land". (anyway, the christian realms there endured longer than the sowjetunion...)

- 1389 battle on the amselfeld (kosovo). defeat of "christian" balkan realms against ottoman turks. end of serbian tzardom.

- 1402 battle of angora, timur lenk (golden horde) beated the ottoman turks army under sultan bayezid. (this delayed the fall of byzanz)

- 1453 fall of byzanz against ottoman turks

[Emhyr var Emreis]

yes, great work.

And don't forget.

Xeres de la Frontera in 711. Fall of the Visigoth kingdom. Arabs conquered Iberian peninsula

Covadonga. I don't know the date, but it's the start of the Reconquest in Iberian peninsula

Kalka river in 1223 - Russian princes defeated by Mongols. But I don't know the leaders.

[Bagpipe]

One more:

Kulikovo 1380 (biggest russian (Dmitry Donskoi, prince of Moscow) victory over mongols (Mamai, ruler of Golden Horde), after which russian finally got rid of mongolian influence.

For more information: Kulikovo battle (http://kulikovopolye.amr-museum.ru/ENG/KUL_BIT_E.htm)

[Nike]

- 717 - Bulgarian Khan Tervel and Byzantine Emperor Teodosius III vs. the Arabs. Constantinopole was just going to be conquered when the Bulgarian cavalry came and dealed a fatal blow on the besiegers. The Muslims didn't dare to attack again for centuries. (For this one I'm not sure about the year (717 or 718) and the name of the emperor)

- 26 July 811 - Bulgarian Khan Krum vs. Byzantine Emperor Nikifor, Veregava pass, most of the 60 000 Byzantine army is destroyed together with their emperor. Later Khan Krum makes a cup from Nikifors skull.


And the Battle of Lepanto! (Don't know anything concrete)

[Emhyr var Emreis]

Originally posted by Nike
- 717 - Bulgarian Khan Tervel and Byzantine Emperor Teodosius III vs. the Arabs. Constantinopole was just going to be conquered when the Bulgarian cavalry came and dealed a fatal blow on the besiegers. The Muslims didn't dare to attack again for centuries. (For this one I'm not sure about the year (717 or 718) and the name of the emperor)

- 26 July 811 - Bulgarian Khan Krum vs. Byzantine Emperor Nikifor, Veregava pass, most of the 60 000 Byzantine army is destroyed together with their emperor. Later Khan Krum makes a cup from Nikifors skull.


And the Battle of Lepanto! (Don't know anything concrete) I don't think there will be every battle important for every nation. I guess only those which were very important for whole region or whole Europe, not every big battle. Imagine they will must create 40 battles!! I think about 20 its very enough.

Btw, Lepante, yes, it was very important. But in 1571 which seems to me little late. Fought mainly by weapons using gunpowder.

[Nike]

Well, I don't know much about Lepante - only it was very important.

For the other battles:
The Defense of Constantinopole is important for whole of Europe, because if Byzantium was conquered, then west Europe wouldn't still have the strength to fight back the muslims. Many chronicles exist for the importancy of this battle.

For the battle of Veregava - this wasn't that important, although it is important for the Balkans, too. But maybe not for whole Europe.

[Emhyr var Emreis]

Originally posted by Nike
Well, I don't know much about Lepante - only it was very important.

For the other battles:
The Defense of Constantinopole is important for whole of Europe, because if Byzantium was conquered, then west Europe wouldn't still have the strength to fight back the muslims. Many chronicles exist for the importancy of this battle.

For the battle of Veregava - this wasn't that important, although it is important for the Balkans, too. But maybe not for whole Europe.


I don't mind 40 battles. Actually I think that 40 are too less. 100 sounds better! I don't mind 100 battles too, but imagine the work Frujin and Frank and their team will have with it. Maybe expansion pack.

You know, I posted it because there is about 5 battles between Byzantines and Bulgarians announced here between 700 and 1200 what is too much I guess. I think nobody will be against those which gave those struggles a resolition, like Byzantines defeated, Bulgarian tzar became tzar of Bulgarians and Greeks, Bulgaria disappeared from political map for 200 years, Bulgaria restored.

Battles like Mantzikert, Myriokefalon, Legnica, Kalka, , Kulikovo, Angora, Poitiers, Lechfeld, etc. are conected with some significant invasion, Moravian field, Las Navas de Tolosa, Grunvald/Tannenberg, Hastings, Huttin, Bouvines and Crecy are conected with some significant changes in their region (Western Europe, Central Europe, Balkans, Levante, Iberian peninsula etc.)

[Nike]

Not only that I don't mind, I WANT an expansion.

Those are the major important battles. I could write much much more but as you said not so important. But those had a significant effect on the region (and Tervels battle on Europe). That's why I wanted them to be included! But ofcourse if we mention all of the battles that change the course of the Balkans... We (on the Balkans) have fought too much wars. And 5 battles about Bulgaria - good, let the other add their battles, don't wait!

Peace :peace:

PS What is going on with the smileys? :scratch:

[timurlenk]

battle of lepanto was a naval battle 15##, afaik. christian (spanish) fleet against ottoman turks. outcome was a symolic defeat of the turks.
i dont know any other lepanto battles. :confused:


i would like to see many "unknown" battles, additonally to the "standard" battles like crecy or hattin :cheers:

[Bora]

maybe there will be a historical battle option beside the campaign modus. just ask frank&frujin they will give us the answer :)

[Emhyr var Emreis]

I understand you, Nike. i think those you posted are important, but i only wanted to prevent sending here every big battle, because evcery big battle looks important for whole region. when it influenced one state, it also influenced whole region, but....

when duke of Bohemia captured Gniezdno in 1039, it turned the Emperor against him because in HRE they didnt like Bohemia nor Poland nor Hungary dominating each other. So then Emperor suported Poles and defeated Bohemians.

Maybe it was a little jealousy of mine, because we, Bohemians used diplomacy more for foreign policy(when some internal hostility we killed each other without any problems) and big battles were fought only occasionaly and when really needed. So when Habsburgs stolen us Austrian lands, our king had to meet them in a battle. And it his dead was the final decision :(

[timurlenk]

[i]So when Habsburgs stolen us Austrian lands, our king had to meet them in a battle. And it his dead was the final decision :( [/B]

:D
who is us? are you an descendant of the przmyslid-dynasty?


btw:
the claim of otokar to the austrian territories, founded on his marriage to margarethe, sister of the last male babenberger (which he abandoned after "use"), was very doubtable.
according to the law of succession, mararethe was not first in line.

otokar ruled in austria for 25, 26 years - with an equivocal claim - so "stolen" is maybe not the most fitting word ;)

(of course, habsburg had no claims! but the winner takes it all...)

[Emhyr var Emreis]

Guys, any idea of more battles here? :) let's give our devs something to choose from.

Can you answer, Frujin, how many battles are you planning to have in game?

[Haegemon]

For my part:

The north-african invaders of west Europe were arab and bereber. Muslim religion.

Maps:
The Arab empire. (http://courses.drew.edu/sp2001/span-135-001/arab_empire.jpg)
Frontiers after invasion of Iberia. 800 (http://courses.drew.edu/sp2001/span-135-001/iberian_peninsula.jpg)
Civil war in Al-Andalus. (http://courses.drew.edu/sp2001/span-135-001/taifa%20states.jpg)
Christian Conquest. (http://courses.drew.edu/sp2001/span-135-001/moorish%20spain.jpg)


-Battle of Guadalete (Jerez de la Frontera 711)->The place. (http://www.elalmanaque.com/turismo/bodegas/domeq/6.gif) Don Rodrigo's troops camped in a plains near Jerez to fight against Tarik ibn Ziyad's troops from North-Africa. Arabs (most part were bereber) defeated the goths. Tarik gave his name to Gibraltar (Yabal Tarik/ Mountain of Tarik)

-Battle of Covadonga 718->The place. (http://www.almargen.com.ar/sitio/seccion/historia/covado/z_enol.jpg) Visigoth Pelayo and his men(Mountainards) refuged in a mountainous and tight valley. At the bottom, where the valley becomes tighter, there is a hill called Covadonga. On the base of this hill there is a cave. In that cave could fit no much more than 300 men.
Alqama (leader) and his numerous army of saracens entered in the valley, and found themselves attacked on their flanks. Their arrows and rocks weren't effective.
In the middle of the battle Pelayo and few scuads charged from the cave. Alqama died in combat and his army was defeated.

-Battle of Tolosa->In Franc's territory Al-Samah conquers Narbona and tries to assault Tolosa. 09/07/721 The duke of Aquitaine Eudon defeats him in front of the city. Al-Samah dies in combat.

-Battle of Poitiers 732-> also called Battle of Tours.

-Battle of Navas de Tolosa 1212->Historical Data (In spanish, sorry) (http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Park/1132/p46.htm) In that battle fought all christian realms from peninsule united.

[Backside]

Originally posted by Bagpipe
Thanx, Elewyn. I was just preparing to start similar thread :D but I was to lazy to write so much...

Your list of battles is great, but I'd like to add Grunwald, so...

Grunwald (Tanenberg, Zalgiris) 1410(Lithuania under Vytautas (Witold)+Poland (Vladislav Jagielo), army including lithuanians, poles, russians, czechs, tartars X Teutonic Order(Ulrich von Jungingen)+knights from almost all Western Europe)

Hmm, I'm youur neighbour from Poland and I know a liitle bit differen version.
Teutonic Order lands were on the Polish territorium and when was the unite of Poland and Lithua, the TO was on the territory of both countries. So the problem of TO was also for Lithuania and Poland but the army contain Polish Knights and allies so Lithuanian Knights, Tatars and Czechs.
So it's a version from my history books :].

But I dont know one - why ot is a glorious loss - it should be glorious won of united Polish and Lithuinian army + allies.

I think that here someone should add the fall of Grenada, the last city of Maurs in Spain, it was also the one point of "world step to reinnesanse" and more battles of I crusades! There is only Fall of Jerusalem, but there was a few onather bib battles when the european army include maybe ten thousands, maybe milion or more soldiers:

Doryleum (1097), battle near river Bafus when the column of crusaders were crossing the bridge. Crusaders army (Boemund+Gotfrid+Bichop la Puy)

Antiochia (july 1098 ), heroic defense of Antiochia Castle,, Crusader army X united arabic army (Kerboga)

[Bagpipe]

Originally posted by Backside
Hmm, I'm youur neighbour from Poland and I know a liitle bit differen version.
Teutonic Order lands were on the Polish territorium and when was the unite of Poland and Lithua, the TO was on the territory of both countries. So the problem of TO was also for Lithuania and Poland but the army contain Polish Knights and allies so Lithuanian Knights, Tatars and Czechs.
So it's a version from my history books :].

But I dont know one - why ot is a glorious loss - it should be glorious won of united Polish and Lithuinian army + allies.


Hi, neighbour.
First, the unite of Poland and Lithuania was in 1569 (Liublin), and if you have in mind 1385 agreement, it was just a dynastic AGREEMENT (later helped to defeat TO in Grunwald), so our countries were separate till 1569.

Second, Teutonic Order came to Prussian (baltic) lands (NOT Polish) in the beggining of 13 century when it was invited by Mazovian duke Conrad to protect Mazovia from severe and infidels balts (Prussian). Crusaders conquered Prussian tribes and later was a major threat to Lithuania. Poland had only several conflicts with TO mainly because of teritories, so, I wanna say for Lithuanians Grunwald meant a greater victory, however, it couldn't be achieved without 1385 agreement and engagement with Poles. So, this is my version.

:cheers:

[Backside]

Originally posted by Bagpipe
Hi, neighbour.
First, the unite of Poland and Lithuania was in 1569 (Liublin), and if you have in mind 1385 agreement, it was just a dynastic AGREEMENT (later helped to defeat TO in Grunwald), so our countries were separate till 1569.

Second, Teutonic Order came to Prussian (baltic) lands (NOT Polish) in the beggining of 13 century when it was invited by Mazovian duke Conrad to protect Mazovia from severe and infidels balts (Prussian). Crusaders conquered Prussian tribes and later was a major threat to Lithuania. Poland had only several conflicts with TO mainly because of teritories, so, I wanna say for Lithuanians Grunwald meant a greater victory, however, it couldn't be achieved without 1385 agreement and engagement with Poles. So, this is my version.

:cheers:

Of course, I remembre, Teutonic Order wanted to connect with the Brotherhood of Sword Cavaliers or sth like that (near Sweden) and TO atack the region called in my caountry ¯mudŸ :p.

You said that Poland had only several conflicts with TO mainly because of teritories'. It;s not exacly like that. We have several conflict's beacuse the lands whoch polish king gave to "look after" to TO was absorbed by them and TO wa doing a ****** things on polish like like slaughter of Gdansk (biggest polish port) citizens :angry:.

:cheers: :cheers: :cheers: - for P&L Union Bagpipe :p

---> TO ELWYN

We're not squabbling but discuting about the onother points of seeing the history :].