D-day's 60 years anniversary

[Ledhead]

Originally posted by Sir Turylon

You Europeans should stay out of American politics. You have enough political problems over there with your contries about to lose their soveriegnty to the freakung EU. ;) That is all I am going to say.



We Europeans (and the rest of the world in fact!) can't stay out of US politics as the US see it fit to put their money- and power hungry nose in every one elses politics - sorry!

The EU project is an attempt of countering the US dominance in the world. Unfortunatelly our efforts so far is an embarrasment...

[Henrik]

Interesting discussion IMO

@Ledhead - you've stated that

Hitler was a psychopath. If some people belong to a lesser race then a lot of the people closest to Hitler belong to them: Göring was a heroinist, Goebels a crippled midget and Himmler a physical weakling, and what about Hitler himself...
So much for the master race...


in this post (http://forum.sunflowers.de/showthread.php?s=&action=&postid=34470#post34470)

and


Rommel was a brilliant tactician, and charismatic. But he was weak with logistics, and his vanity sometimes led to more casualties than necessary. Erich von Manstein was a more complete commander.
Unfortunatelly they never stod up to Hitler, even if they weren't nazis. They were just happy fighting for Germany with no consideration for the politics behind.
Gerd von Rundstedt told Hitler to piss off a couple of times, but even he returned to sevice.
Hitler was a bold tactician and caught his enemies with surprise on the battlefield, but didn't have a clue about air- or navy war or logistics. Germany had no chance with him as leader

in this post (http://forum.sunflowers.de/showthread.php?s=&action=&postid=34457#post34457)

I'll have to agree with you all the way, because i believe that germany could have won the war if it wasn't for those nazi dudes spoiling it all and i also agree when you say that Gerd von Rundstedt and Erich von Manstein were all in all better generals than Erwin Rommel - i think it's apropriet to show these guys respect because all they wanted to do were to get the job done - like their allied counterparts - i know for a fact that the news of rommels death made a few allied generals a little sad, because eventhough he was an enemy they also "admired" or a least recognized him as a worthy opponent.

I also wish to take my time to say that many of us who is interested in the ww2 are pretty "excited" when it comes to german ingenuity in terms of weapons and tactics ( i have stated this before )

Many of us has sorta "fallen in love" with the famous 88 anti aircraft/tankgun + the Panther, the tiger, the king tiger, and the list goes on and on - one big problem for the germans during the war was that they "insisted" on building quality instead of quantity - like the russians - when they first got their war production on track they really did some amazing things.

[HappyAdolf]

Yes, that's right. We Germans had the best weapons of this time. Our V2-rocket even made it possible to start traveling to space. So WW2 had its good sides (not only being an interesting part of history:D ). And I totally agree that those Nazis have messed up everything. With their respectless acts against humanity they forced the allies to attack the Reich. Every civilised country would do this. Most recent example: Saddam. We would have won if Hitler hadn't made such faults. He was our biggest problem and I'm glad he's gone. But Germany was so much bigger before WW2 and now it is so small:(

[Angryminer]

one big problem for the germans during the war was that they "insisted" on building quality instead of quantityI guess they had no other chance. Germany was always short on resources. So they had to build few but good tanks.

About Tiger:
The Tiger wasn't exactly as unbeatable as people think. But they always had the most experienced crews in them and the best support. Due to this the enemy soldiers feared the Tiger. Soon the enemy fled from the battlefield as soon as they saw a Tiger tank.
But well, it's true that the Tiger wasn't a 'light tank' like the Sherman ;) .
I like the Tiger tanks too...

Angryminer

[HappyAdolf]

Yes, they were great. There are rumors that never anyone had shot through the front armor of a tiger-tank:)

[Angryminer]

A KVII's 152mm gun would blow a Pz VI into pieces ;) .
That no Tiger was ever destroyed from the front is one of the legends that develeoped due to the way the Tigers where used.


Just read up on the Tiger.
In fact the Pz VI B "King's Tiger" was never destroyed by a shot into the front armor. But there were only 489 Pv VI B.


Angryminer

[Ledhead]

I've read that the German tank development was a strategic mistake.
As Germany had a shortage of resources they should have developed already good tank solutions.
Instead of designing new ones, like the Tiger, they should have upgraded the versitile Panzer IV.
By developing the Tiger they ended up with far more lesser tanks than they would by developing the Pz IV. The Tiger didn't have sloped armour in the front, wonder how much tons they could have shaved off the Tiger by using sloped armour...
The Russians got it right with the solid and simple construction of the T-34.
But I can't say that I don't admire the individual German war effort, proffesionals through and through. With their soldiers being able to act one rank above their nominal rank, AMO...

[Gorgoroth]

Originally posted by HappyAdolf
But Germany was so much bigger before WW2 and now it is so small:(

Heh, look at Hungary. It was a big country before WW I., and now it is small. :mad:

[Bagpipe]

Originally posted by Angryminer
A KVII's 152mm gun would blow a Pz VI into pieces ;) .
That no Tiger was ever destroyed from the front is one of the legends that develeoped due to the way the Tigers where used.
Angryminer

I doubt, that Tiger and KV 2 have ever met in battlefields:
"Produced (KV 2) in 1940 to battle the Finnish defenses. Proved to be unwieldy as the turret was very heavy. The turret could only be moved when on flat ground. Construction was halted at end of 1941. Built on the KV-1 chassis at the Kirov works in Leningrad."
Tiger was started to use in the very end of 1942-1943

Originally posted by Angryminer
About Tiger:
The Tiger wasn't exactly as unbeatable as people think. But they always had the most experienced crews in them and the best support. Due to this the enemy soldiers feared the Tiger. Soon the enemy fled from the battlefield as soon as they saw a Tiger tank.
But well, it's true that the Tiger wasn't a 'light tank' like the Sherman .
I like the Tiger tanks too...


Agree.
Personal fighting ahievements like Michael Wittmann's in Villers Bocage read more here (http://www.achtungpanzer.com/gen3.htm) or Otto Carius' in Malinava read more here (http://www.achtungpanzer.com/gen4.htm), however, famed Tigers together with their crews.

[Finellach]

Originally posted by Gorgoroth
Heh, look at Hungary. It was a big country before WW I., and now it is small. :mad:

And rightfully so. Hungary held many "non-hungarian" areas and countries. Transylania, Croatia, Bosnia, Slovakia, Bohemia....they all deserve their independance.

[Sir Turylon]

damn.. you all are heretics!

Rommel was so far superior to Von Rundstet. The reason Rommel kept losing in Africa is because Hitler was trying to run the show. This always happens in wars. Politicians try to run them, and the generals end up paying for it.

as for the tanks. pffft.
Tiger this, Panther that...

best tank the Whermacht had was the PanzerKempfwagon IIIG. Period. Tiger was sorely under-powered in engine. Panther was ok, but too damn bulky to move around. throw 40 Pnzkw IIIGs against 20 shermans, instead of 5 Pnzkw VIs. you'll win ;)

[Redback]

Wow! Hmm There seems to be alot of Politics involved in in a simple discussion about D'Days 60th.:eek:

As far as Hitler is concerned he was actually very smart in the early days and quite a good diplomat{he manipulated the events from the beginning of his career}it was after he became addicted to Drugs that his intelligence failed him.

And Germany's generals were very good at Tactical matters,but very poor Stategically,so they would have lost the war no matter what,eventually anyway.
Just my 2 cents:p :D :cheers:

[HappyAdolf]

Hitler and DRUGS???? Now I know why he was such a bastard.... arr, NO DRUGS!!!!!!!! Only alcohol:D

[Redback]

Originally posted by Henrik
That's interesting Redback - i'll guess he can tell a lot of stories ( if he want to )

Where did he serve i.e in the wehrmacht ( the regular army ) or... and in which branch infantry, armour, artillery or...



My Dad was a PanzerGrenadier in the Wehrmacht,and he survived 3 years{3 years in army Roughly 2 1/2 on Russian front} by respecting the Russian soldier,and not under estimating them.He lost a lot of friends because they didn't respect the enemy.
{btw; He dosen't like to tell war stories ,but when he does they are quite scary.}

And I think the Veterans at Normandy go there to pay respects to the Dead on both sides of the conflict.
Forget the Politicians they were not on the beaches etc.
imo anyway.:cheers:

[HappyAdolf]

My grandpa was in the Wehrmacht, too. He lost a leg at the Eastern Front, but that was actually luck for him: They transported him back to Germany by plane and some days later the place he fougt in was overrun by Russian soldiers.

[Henrik]

Originally posted by Ledhead
I've read that the German tank development was a strategic mistake.
As Germany had a shortage of resources they should have developed already good tank solutions.
Instead of designing new ones, like the Tiger, they should have upgraded the versitile Panzer IV.
By developing the Tiger they ended up with far more lesser tanks than they would by developing the Pz IV. The Tiger didn't have sloped armour in the front, wonder how much tons they could have shaved off the Tiger by using sloped armour...
The Russians got it right with the solid and simple construction of the T-34.
But I can't say that I don't admire the individual German war effort, proffesionals through and through. With their soldiers being able to act one rank above their nominal rank, AMO...

I'll agree with you that they should have put much more effert in further developing the panzer IV

Regarding the sloped armour on the tiger - they did actually put sloped armour on the king tiger - personally i love both tiger and the king tiger - just take a look at those beasts, but as i have stated before i also like so many of the other great vehicles which germany built and i know i'm not the only one.

also i really think that one has to respect the russian T-34 - i think the germans should have copied its design - because it was fairly simple, yet it was a deadly opponent, but i know it was hard in those day, when the leaders regarded the russians as sub-humans.............that was a mistake......

I also agrees with you that the really had the things figure out regarding their ranking system i.e that a soldier of lower rank was expected to be able to fullfil the role of a higher ranking officer if they needed to - i actually think that lots of modern armies could learn from this versatile system.

@Bagpipe - i'll agree with you regarding the tank commander Michael Wittmann - eventhough he was one one of the nazi guys one has to respect his achievements.

Originally posted by Redback
And Germany's generals were very good at Tactical matters,but very poor Stategically,so they would have lost the war no matter what,eventually anyway.


I'll have to agree with you Redback, that the german generals were poor in strategically - as i see it the only problem they basically had was Hitler and that he insisted on leading those campaigns - he should have stayded at the eagles nest and minded his own business.

It's my claim that if those nazi leaders had "stuck to their affairs" and was kept from intervening in the generals business then Germany could have won the war IMO.

[shagrath_the_dead]

henrik
the panther was developed as answer to the T-34 :)
anyway,im also very interested in german WW2 weapons,i collect models of german armour,one of my favourite tho(besides the panther,tiger,king tiger,jagdpanther,jagdpanzer IV etc etc etc)
is the sturmgeschutz 42
that self propelled gun looks so awesome! especially with the extra armour plating at the sides :D

german morale dropped when the infantry didn't have support from these guys :D

and did you know how to scare a russian soldier during WW2?
when one screams tiger terror,most of em fled,they were so scared of the tigers :D

[HappyAdolf]

Yeah, our good old Tiger tanks:D
I love them too.

[Henrik]

Originally posted by shagrath_the_dead
henrik
the panther was developed as answer to the T-34 :)
anyway,im also very interested in german WW2 weapons,i collect models of german armour,one of my favourite tho(besides the panther,tiger,king tiger,jagdpanther,jagdpanzer IV etc etc etc)
is the sturmgeschutz 42
that self propelled gun looks so awesome! especially with the extra armour plating at the sides :D

german morale dropped when the infantry didn't have support from these guys :D

and did you know how to scare a russian soldier during WW2?
when one screams tiger terror,most of em fled,they were so scared of the tigers :D

I'll agree with you that the german infantry was happy to have a Sturmgeschütz III (http://www.achtungpanzer.com/stug.htm) tag along with'em.

But one thing which REALLY scare the russians was when they were attacked with The Nebelwerfer 41 (http://www.lonesentry.com/articles/nebelwerfer/) it is said that i would make'em either flee or surrender just by the look of it ! But i'll guess that was only the russians invented their own version called Katyusha ! - i think the russians were very famous for using these to soften-up a piece of the front before an attack.

btw, i can recommend the site Achtung Panzer ! (http://www.achtungpanzer.com/panzer.htm) this is a great site if you're interested in german WW2 equipment - the site seems to be under re-construction however, but many page seems to work okay.

[Sir Turylon]

any of you fans of the Panzer General series?
;)