Main Topic: the war in Iraq... (again!). Triggerer: An article in the New York Times.

[Darius]

Originally posted by Sir Turylon

Palestinians are not fighting for their country. Have you even read what Islamic Jihad, Hezbollah, and the others are fighting for? They are not fighting to defend their country.... They are terrorizing Israel until the nation of Israel is destroyed. Please go research their organizations before you post.


I'll just correct you... palestinians are fighting for their country, just because we gave the israelians the land dosn't mean that it's theirs. In some way I understand this, but it dosn't mean that i'm for their cause.... again this dosn't mean that that i'm for the israelians. Both parts are equally bad in this conflickt. I just hope that both parts will stop this bloodshet... but the USA could do more IMO, but in the last few years they have increased their support for peace, which I think is great :cheers:

[Angryminer]

Again a comment:
Is it rightfull to kill people, bomb cities and cause so many (iraqi and american) casualties because Saddam might have had weapons of mass destruction?
And remember: We're not speaking about stealing pockets or something minor like that.

Try to imagin this in your every day life.
To kill somebody because he might posess a weapon.
If that's your idea of protection:
Poor american people.


Oh, and at your example.
He shot the man, so he is guilty. But we don't know that in the iraqi case. So he might have shot the man.
"In dubio pro reo" is my position. It's the position of the western world except of the USA.


Angryminer

[Finellach]

And addition:

I find the treatment of Iraqui people dsgusting and disgraceful. I mean killing people on the street, stepping on them and treating them like animals makes me really mad. :angry:

[Ben Nevis]

I don't want this to become a fight, I really don't.
I'm not playing this personal and I hope you don't either.
I just want a fair discussion :cheers: . This is going to be my last post, though, cause I already spend to much time on this subject and I don't think we are getting any further.


You comment from your own narrow view of what is going on. You see information through the anti-american government perspective. "Anything the US gov does is wrong"

Oh, please, I certainly think the US goverment has done a lot of things wrong recently, but I'm certainly not an anti-American governmenter and please don't play this personal. Just keep a fair discussion.
I think I have the least "narrow view" of all forum members. Being Dutch having lived in Belgium for a year and in America for half a year during the war and/or occupation of Iraq (and I've been three times on a holiday in the US). I don't think I have a narrow view. I compared the American media with the Dutch, the German and the British media and can honestly say that the American media ****s (please trust me on this one). This has nothing to do with having lived on one campus, but plainly with the MEDIA.

Palestinians are not fighting for their country. Have you even read what Islamic Jihad, Hezbollah, and the others are fighting for? They are not fighting to defend their country.... They are terrorizing Israel until the nation of Israel is destroyed. Please go research their organizations before you post

Rediculous, haven't you heard of the ceasefire after Israel and Palestina came to an agreement. If they really wanted to destroy Israel they certainly wouldn't have committed to such a ceasefire.
btw. I didn't talk about Hezbollah, I talked about the Palestinians. That they get help from the Hezbollah doesn't mean they are not Palestinians.

Ben, please do not fall into the typical non-American ignorant of what is really going on in the USA catagory

Again I think I am a lot less ignorant than the average American.
Having travelled the world makes a big difference. I do think that people that have seen many places are less ignorant.

I really do hope you people are smarter and better able to discuss something beyond such a childish debating level

Again, don't play this personal. I think I have a big advantage over you, having lived in America during the war/occupation I think I can very well judge the media during such an event and compare it with the British, Dutch and German media.

But then again, why trust a stranger.

[Ben Nevis]

Palestinians killing innocent Israelis in discotheques etc ARE terrorists. But... not all Palestinians are terrorists

I don't agree with you. I think a lot of nations are using the plain word "terrorists" as an excuse to retaliate. I don't oppose against the word terrorist (if 9-11 wouldn't have occured I would call some Palestinians and some Tjestjenians terrorists as well). But I oppose against using this word to fight a fiercer battle against people that try to free themselves. Everybody knows the Tjetsjenians (sorry, don't know how to write this properly) and the Palestinians have the money, the quantity, the quality, nor the equipment to fight a fair battle. Thus they have to engage in these "unfair practices".
Nobody thinks the North Vietnamese were terrorists although they to some extend used the same tactics. Thus, I would propose to use an other word for people that try to free a country. It's not about the dictionary, it's about the feeling behind the word. I think there is such a big difference between Al-Qaeda and the Palestinians that we shouldn't call them the same names.
This was my first post and I still totally agree with it

Sorry, but again you are not very factual. I don't think the Palestines can be compared with Al-Qaeda. The Palestines fight for their country, while Al-Qaeda fights against a country. I know Israel likes to depict them as terrorist (as well as the Russians do with Tsjetsjenia), but terrorists shouldn't become a buzz word. In my opinion people fighting for their country or fighting for freedom are not terrorists although their acts of violence might be the same

[Hector]

Their goal is diferent. Independent and muslim state of Chechnia, independent islamic Palestine with Jerusalem as capital, destroying western-jewich-christian power in the middle east

I dont see the problem for an islamic goverment in chechnia nor in Palestine as long as they dont fight each other.

Israel self is based on Jewish religion so could Palestine be based on Islam. And Jeruzalem is half in Israel and half in Palestinian terretories.

If this all happens there maybe could be peace.

but i must admit Republic is the best!

[Ben Nevis]

But Elewyn, I'm not making a distinction between nations or individuals, I'm making a distinction between the goals.

In my opinion the word Terrorist is abused by nations such as Russia and Israel to retaliate fiercer against Chechnians (thx for that one) and Palestinians. Thus I would propose to call the former Chechnians and Palestine terrorists by a different name. Again, I know that according to the dictionary all are terrorists. I just oppose against using it as a buzz-word to retaliate fiercer.

:cheers:

[Ben Nevis]

Lord Turylon

Innocents being killed at checkpoints? Are you refering to the incident of 4 people being killed when they failed to stop? Are you refering to that?

If you only know one accident in which innocent Iraqis were killed then this clearly shows how terrible the US media are. Accidents were reported on a daily basis in the Netherlands.
Pls. ask all the other "Europeans" (can someone back me up, here). Many, many innocent Iraqis have been killed. The one you mention is one of them. Comparable accidents have happened in which three and even five people (among them four children) have been killed. But obviously this doesn't matter anymore. It's just striking that you only know one accident, while I can't keep the count.

[Hector]

well the wedding bombing was horrible

and i am not anti-american but this is just to make you clear that innocent people are dying to not only guilty one's.

Lord Turylon didnt the us news show that?

[Sir Turylon]

Do not assume that i have not heard of the horrible loss of civilian lives in Iraq.

That wedding... go read up on it... they found weapons, uniforms, and explosives the next day when they investigated it.

Do you people realize that a majority of the civilians being killed are being killed by terrorist activities such as the numerous car bombings...

@Ben. Let's agree to disagree... I do not feel like getting DRAGGED into another debate that will resort to nothing more than a "I know what is going on and the other person doesn't" pong match. LOL.

correction: I never said Palestinians were all terrorists. I said Hezbollah, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Al Aksar Brigade... those are terrorists.... (the UN even says so) Freedom fighters? No... I do not think so. They are not fighting for freedom... they are fighting to destroy Israel. As for that "cease fire" Wow... that lasted a LONG time. Israel stopped attacking them and WHAM bus bombing after bus bombing... Yep.. the terrorists want a cease fire.. "You stop shooting and we'll keep killing you!"

@ Elewyn.. You are nothing more than an arrogant anti-conservative liberal bent on turning all the world into your own state common!
LOL

To answer your Al Queda Hezbollah link question.... Usama Bin laden does support them. Al Queda and now Hezbollah and Hamas have all been publically calling for a jihad against the "Great satan and lesser satan." So yes... there is a ideaological link between the two.. There is also a well documented link between Saddam and Hamas. IIRC, he sent $20,000 to each suicide bomber's family after he blew himself up "for allah." This is actually contradictory to what the Koran teaches about martyrdom. (PM if you want the facts for this).

Maybe an agreement to end this before it turns into WW3 on here... :)

[Nike]

OK, if you don't like the word "terrorist" then we can call them "divine angelic warriors who blow themselves up together with innocent children". No, that's too long. Maybe just "kamikaze", "fanatic"? I don't know...

But you're right they're not terrorists! I admit that we had "terrorists" long before Israel was created - we called them "haiduks" and they were something like Robbin Hood (except they didn't give money to the poor). They were hiding in the forests and the mountains and killed "innocent" rich Turks. Later, in the beginning of the 20th century there were political "terrorists" - planting bombs in churches and assassinating political "enemies". Those were "terrorists"! The ones we're talking about are worse! They're "fanatic kamikazes"! The Palestinians (and all Arabs) are not fighting to free Palestine (whatever they say) - they're fighting to destroy Israel! Don't forget the 6 days war! The Arabs and the Jews hate each other since they remember themselves. And I doubt they'll find peace until the other side is destroyed!

[Ben Nevis]

OK, if you don't like the word "terrorist" then we can call them "divine angelic warriors who blow themselves up together with innocent children". No, that's too long. Maybe just "kamikaze", "fanatic"? I don't know...

I don't think you get my point

@ Turylon

I agree with the you, don't think we're getting further with this (and it costed me too much time already ;) )

:cheers:

[the knightly sword]

@sir turylon
i have study`d the middle east very well indeed.the palstines are fighting for there country all the terrorists you call i would rather calll them freedom fighters. the israels isnt orgin from that country .ween british forces invaded the otman imepier on the ww1 great brittain had promise the israelis that they would get palstin as new country. the only people how fought back against the israel is know what is called palstin .the terrorist in middle east now is takeing revenge on israel for the un fair treatment they give to the palstins .israel hates islam and the muslim countrys hates the jewish relgion that is how it goes.
so why does the american goverment cover up israels crimes and why arent they doing anything to stop this stupid war

[Nike]

Originally posted by Ben Nevis
I don't think you get my point

Actually, I think you don't get my point! I've said that these so called "terorists" are not actually terrorists. They're worse!

But there's no point to argue - it won't change a thing (except worsen the relations in this forum)! So Cheers! :cheers: :cheers:

[Siena]

Here is a good article about the subject. Should give some substantial food for thought:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5279743/

[Kuno of Gersenau]

Hmm I would like to say some words to Israel and Palestine...

There are bad Palestines, who don't fight for freedom, only for deth Jews and I also think Arrafat is corrupt and doesn't really want peace, but Sharon neither...(This teo politics are very much to old and they would like to kill each other, replace them as fast as you can!)

Now Israel builds a wall, a thing who never had really succes in the past, not in Germany and also the Chinese wall couldn't stop Genghis Khan and his mongols...so I'm sure this wall can't stop all terrorists, it makes the hate only bigger because a lot of Palestines loose their fields...if they build a wall, why don't they build him at the frontier?

And I have the opinion, and a lot of people I know also, that this conflict is one of the main reasons for all this islamistic terror...
America or maybe also the UN could stop this, there I'm sure. I only ask myself why they don't do it...:nono:

[Sir Turylon]

Originally posted by the knightly sword
@sir turylon
the terrorist in middle east now is takeing revenge on israel for the un fair treatment they give to the palstins .israel hates islam and the muslim countrys hates the jewish relgion that is how it goes.
so why does the american goverment cover up israels crimes and why arent they doing anything to stop this stupid war

I think you should demand a refund for any classes you might have taken. :(

Islam is not anti-Judaism and anti-Christian. Judaism does not preach hatred of Islamic and other gentile people. It seems that these "fundementalist challenged terrorists" think the Koran gives the green light to destroy all that do not convert to Islam.


As far as I can recall... Israel never imposed strict laws on "Palestinian" people until those people began to run up to pregnant women and blowing themselves up yelling "Allah is great." :angry: Freedom fighters blow up civilians? that's a sick and twisted view on their cause.

Palestine was never a nation... It refers to only a geographical location. From Lebanon down through to Gaza. The land was originally taken by Hewbrew 'refugees" according to Egyptian, Babylonian, Phoenician, and Jewish history. Babylonians took it over. They they allowed the jews to resettle it and claim some independance. It went back and forth between Babylonian and Persian control. Romans "annexed" it later on and allowed them to rule themselves while having a governor from Rome. It evantually found its way into Byzantium empire... Then the muslim conquest started at it was taken over by the Caliph of Baghdad. further on Turkish Empire gained control of it... (by this time the jews had migrated throughout Europe). When British wrestled it from Turkish forces, they divided the former turkish lands into the modern states of Syria, Jordan, Iraq, Lebanon, Israel (which was called Palestinian sector before '47), Egypt...etc

The palestinians began to terrorize the Israel people soon after 47. There never truely was a palestinian nation. Calling themselves palestinians is like me calling myself an American. It only refers to the geographical region they/I live in.

PM if you want link to the facts I abse this on. Or you can go search for yourself if you think I'd post some propaganda. :)

The Palestinian Liberation organization... They are not fighting for freedom. They are fighting to destroy the state of Israel and return it to post-British establishment rule.

They would actually rather see the Islamicade re-establish itself in the region. Unite all people under Islam... yep. great idea. :scratch:

@America or the UN can stop this mess.

America could... since we're not afraid of going after terrorists like some other countries.

The UN can do something? Since when? As far as I am concerned, the UN is only good for two things... Stopping Cold War scuffles between nuclear powers and helping to hand out food and medical help to countries. In all other matters, they fail. The UN can't do ****. They are becoming as impotent as the League of Nations.

The real sector where the end of this "war" can come from is from the Islamic people. They need to rise up against these terrorists and fundementalists and demand they stop. Hezbolllah, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Al Aksar Brigade, Al Ansar, Al Queda. they are not going to stop until A) their source of power is destroyed or B) Every single one of them is killed.

Communism was defeated by itself in the 1980s. Perhaps we need to make Islamic terrorism destroy itself by showing the people how repulsive it truely is, and as Elewyn stated earlier in another thread, providing those countries with some progressive reforms.

[Ben Nevis]

Nice article. I agree with the opinion that the occupation of Iraq has made Al-Qaeda stronger.

I strongly object to this statement though

My experience working against bin Laden was there was multiple occasions when we did not take advantage of an opportunity to solve the problem because we were afraid of killing a civilian, we were afraid of hitting a mosque with shrapnel, we were afraid of disrupting sales of arms overseas. Very seldom in my career have I ever heard anyone ask what happens if we don't do this. My own opinion is we should err on the side of protecting Americans first. And if we make a mistake in that kind of action, I think the American people will accept that. It's — this is a matter of survival. This is not a nuisance anymore.


I don't think the lifes of Americans are worth more than any other life.

[Ben Nevis]

@ sir Turylon,

Of course there are always extremists, but the average Palestinian just wants to have its own state. I think it's wrong to assume that only extremists that want to kill all Jews are "terrorists". I think it's pretty safe to assume that most "Palestinian terrorists" commit these acts to have a Palestinian state as end goal. Maybe some "extremer" groups support those "Palestinian terrorists", but that doesn't mean that the "Palestinian terrorists" themselves only "terrorize" to "kill all jews".
Again I refer to the cease fire. If the end goal would really be to kill all jews their would not have been a (short) cease fire.

[Siena]

Originally posted by Ben Nevis
Nice article. I agree with the opinion that the occupation of Iraq has made Al-Qaeda stronger.

I strongly object to this statement though

I don't think the lifes of Americans are worth more than any other life.

in my opinion - the problem is - that very big majority of Americans are very childish and naive about foreign policy. Also they delude themselves with this notion of their moral superiority, when in fact there is none.
This is the source of every argument when you try to discuss foreign policy with Americans.

They will never admit that their intentions were anything less than fair and alruistic.
So that is the reason, that Americans so easily agree to war - they completely trust that their goverment will be the "fairest of them all" in anything it does... and reality is that government is either stupid or just plain greedy.