Main Topic: the war in Iraq... (again!). Triggerer: An article in the New York Times.

[Sir Turylon]

Originally posted by Hector
Lord Turylon

this is a question that i want to know

How does it come that U.S.A. is using 40% of the Worlds total energy?
Gonna quote some figures from Ben's links to the CIA analysis of world powers.

Electricity:
Produced: 3.719 trillion kWh
Comsumed: 3.602 trillion kWh
Exports: 18.17 billion kWh
(Yay! we trade electrons!! bout time those atoms starting working for us!)

Oil:
Production: 8.054 million bbl/day
Comsumed: 19.65 million bbl/day
Only 11.596 billion barrel deficit... maybe Iraq's 2.2 million bbl/day
would cover it... no wait.. it wouldn't... Geuss we didn't go to war after the oil afterall!

[sarcasm]
As you can see, We Americans like to use electricity and drive big SUVs! [/end sarcasm]

How long have you been in school Ben?

Please do not treat me as a little 3 year old.. that's not very nice of you. lol.

you misquote that.

the GDP per capita... not total GDP....
is $37,800

the actual GDP is $10.98 trillion.

let's look at Sweden's actual GDP.. (not based on per capita).
$238.1 billion
oh wow!

let's do some math....
Sweden's GDP is 0.02168 times that of the USA's GDP.

Per Capita distorts that into making it seem Sweden is not too far behind... when in fact their GDP is (see above) behind. :)

Of course you can compare GDP without going into per capita basis... Who said you couldn't?


In Sesame Street terms.. That means For every 1000 apples the US has.. Sweden has 21. Today's Economy lesson was brought to you be the letter C.


FYI.. I was majoring in Engineering before I switched in history (the classes became boring... needed a bigger challenge than having to remember theorems, mathemetical quantifiers, and other boring stuff)... so your comment about mathematics is hilarious... I geuss the 3 math classes, 2 physics classes really did not have too much math in them.. just "sesame street logic."

Good. my trick worked on you. I was trying to irk you into posting information to back your statements up. :go:

And yes, I knew the difference between GNP and GDP. I know the National Product includes all goods made by US companies overseas, but the Domestic Product only counts for those made here. Anyone who has a minut amount of knowledge on ecnomics understands that. LOL.

What is the poverty level and % of population under poverty level in Sweden? The CIA website does not say. This would also be interesting.

I find this interesting...
Percentage of GDP per sector.
USA
agriculture: 2%
industry: 18%
services: 80%
Sweden
agriculture: 2%
industry: 29%
services: 69%

Interesting how agriculture is roughly same, but Sweden's GDP has a higher % from Industry.

Also.
Natural Gas Production
USA
548.1 billion cu m
Sweden
0 cu m


Also.. Economic Aid
USA
$6.9 billion (this figure has jumped hugely from 97 though.)
Sweden
$1.7 billion

I do applaud Sweden for not entering the EU. :) (yes I'm anti-EU, but not anti-European... not even France)

:cheers: Ben

PS. I think the even distribution of wealth is such a socialistic idea. The Median is probably the best way to find out the distribution of the workforce... IE.. lower wage, higher wage, medium wage. Although, as you said, if they are closer.. that would mean the country is actually farther from Capitalistic and closer to a Socialistic economy. Since The distribution of wealth in Socialism has less variance in it.

(oh no, big words! I am fraught with extremel anxiety that you might try to use such expeditious words in your vailiant but futile attempt to create a paradoxical conflagration in my perception of your flamboyant statements) :)

PSS. Is that where you get most of your info anout US economy from? The way businesses are run depend more upon their ethics. Sure, most businesses are run on the advancement of shareholders. (what can make us money now). Not all are though.
Link to different types of business ethics. (http://www.fact-index.com/b/bu/business_ethics.html)

[Largefry07]

Originally posted by Ben Nevis
I like your signature,

Lord Turylon will probably like it too. In the US they are fond of disclaimers ;) .

Mine???

[Ben Nevis]

Turylon, You made a mistake again. Remember I responded to you?????????? Thus read your quote and then read my response. You were talking about GDP per capita, thus I am as well. Do I really have to add the per capita and does it matter when I give you the sources??????????? I'll give the quote.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sweden has a higher GNP per capita... Does that mean their economy is better? Lol. no. It means they distribution of wealth is more even.. IE.. communistic.. or socialistic
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

First of all Sweden's GDP = $26,800, while US's is $37,800.

I don't think anybody doubts what GDP I'm talking about in this instance, buddy, namely GDP per capita. For clearity reasons it would have been better to add the per capita, but it is clear from my source I gave that I used the GDP per capita. Why trying to nail me down on a technicality (and I didn't say total GDP as might be concluded from your quote). I'll just give your quote as well, so people can see what you try to trick me on.

you misquote that.

the GDP per capita... not total GDP....
is $37,800

the actual GDP is $10.98 trillion.

let's look at Sweden's actual GDP.. (not based on per capita).
$238.1 billion
oh wow!

Turylon, what do you think is the normal measure of wealth?????
GDP or GDP per capita. Obviously GDP per capita, because now you know what one person can buy. Let's take totals and compare those of Sweden and India. Sweden = 238.1 Billion
total GDP, whereas India = 3.002 Trillion total GDP or 3002 billion. Now we can assume India is wealthier than Sweden??? Of course not, because we want to know what one Swede on average can buy. I don't know what your obsession with totals is, but totals don't tell you anything. We always want to know what it is per capita.

Tell me Turylon, why are you afraid to dismantle my statement in my previous thread about you not knowing very much about Maths and Economics by giving a clear quote of yours and telling you what is wrong with it????????

This is your answer:

PS. I think the even distribution of wealth is such a socialistic idea. The Median is probably the best way to find out the distribution of the workforce... IE.. lower wage, higher wage, medium wage. Although, as you said, if they are closer.. that would mean the country is actually farther from Capitalistic and closer to a Socialistic economy. Since The distribution of wealth in Socialism has less variance in it .

Doesn't relate to your MAJOR mistake does it. In this mistake you assumed that GNP per capita shows us anything about the distribution. Well, wise ***, this is not the case. GNP per capita is just the average GNP per person and averages don't tell you anything about the distribution. Everybody with some math knows that, except for you. Telling me that you had 3 classes in maths and 2 physics only makes it worse. Then you must just be really dumb. I completely understand you switched to history. I will give your FATAL quote again.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sweden has a higher GNP per capita... Does that mean their economy is better? Lol. no. It means they distribution of wealth is more even.. IE.. communistic.. or socialistic
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Pls. respond to this mistake only and don't beat around the bush.

Btw, the first two years of math you learn in university we get at high school :D :D :D (I've seen the books you needed for the classes, so I know), so you'll need a bit more classes pal.

[Ben Nevis]

Thx Lord Turylon, you just gave me a great idea

Economic aid of Benelux + Scandinavia

Sweden 1.7, Finland .379, Denmark 1.63, Norway 1.4 , Netherland 3.3 , Belgium 1,072, Luxemburg .147 (all in billions). If we add that we get 9.628 billion.

Compare that with the US's 6.9 billion and I'm pretty shocked. In total the Benelux and Scandinavia give more economic aid than the US. And not just a bit more, 2.7 billion more in total. 50 million people give 2.7 billion more aid than 293 million people. And before you ask me why I use these countries. I use these countries because their GDP per capita comes closest to the GDP per capita of the US.
Why aren't you shocked Lord Turylon by these numbers???????
What's wrong with you if you don't see this!!!!!!!!!

[Sir Turylon]

Originally posted by Ben Nevis


Btw, the first two years of math you learn in university we get at high school :D :D :D (I've seen the books you needed for the classes, so I know), so you'll need a bit more classes pal. [/B]

LOL, I do not think you learn Differential and Integral Calculus at the college level in your high schools. LOL. Stop beng so naive, kid.

once again you are writing pure naivity when it comes to what I have taken in college.


Sure Ben.. let's add all the other countries...

You are digressing from the fact that the US has more foreign aid than Sweden... Stop being such a wise *** about your majoring in economics.

Yeah. I did not know Sweden's actual GDP per capita back then (it's a useless fact to learn, really.. since I really don't care about other countries and their economys, only England and Japan). You had not posted any facts about it. Since you are the "expert" on economics, you should have posted them... (for all us dumb people out here in this GAME forum).


Is that per capita based on US dollars, or the Sewdish currency?


Let's try something Here Ben.
You stop insulting my intelligence, chill your temper down... Then we can continue to discuss this like two adults. I do not like talking to college kids that act like High Schoolers and insult other college students. Maybe that is how they do it in Europe, but it is considered rude and childish over here. M'kay?

@Elewyn
sorry, clarify.
"On September 14, 2003, Swedish voters turned down entry into the euro system, concerned about the impact on democracy and sovereignty."
I meant their voting to not enter into the Euro system. I do not have the funny key to make the actual euro-dollar sign.

@Ben and his silly foreign aid speil.
Yes... Let's compare the 1997 values for foreign aid! yay!... we'll only be 7 years behind.

Ok.. Let's look at year 2000. bit closer.
Total US Foreign Aid.. or USAID found on the state deparment's website..
$56.2 billion. ODA in 2000 would have been $9.9 billion. (Official Development Aid). From Private assistance.. IE.. non-government assistance pouring out from the PEOPLE of this country... $33.6 Billion! The total USAID is projected to reach $70.5 Billion in 2005.

My oh my... the facts don't lie.

You can keep your percentages, mr econ major. :)


Going back to.. the topic... and trying to put out the flame fire known as Ben. Iraq is now a soverign nation, according to international (IE UN and NATO) agreement.

So.. this thread should be....

Closed.

[the knightly sword]

i can explain why sweden didnt enter eu.if we enter EU our econmy will fall.the people would be poorer .i didnt vote for eu because i didnt want my country to be destroyed .last EU voteing our money prize got lower.

in the postive way=eu would be better .but we cant handle it yet
@ sir turylon
chill please
:) that was a bit unnice of you :(

nadine, frujin or admins close this stupid thread please :eek: its makeing the members fight

[Sir Turylon]

Originally posted by the knightly sword
i can explain why sweden didnt enter eu.if we enter EU our econmy will fall.the people would be poorer .i didnt vote for eu because i didnt want my country to be destroyed .last EU voteing our money prize got lower.

in the postive way=eu would be better .but we cant handle it yet
@ sir turylon
chill please
:) that was a bit unnice of you :(

nadine, frujin or admins close this stupid thread please :eek: its makeing the members fight

I PM'd Nadine about the matter Knightly.

I hate it when a discussion turns into this cesspool of mud slinging.... One thing I cannot stand is haughtiness from other people. You know about one subject than another person, but you should not degenerate your knowledge into flaming the other person's lack of knowledge on the subject... that's just rude.

[Ben Nevis]

Turylon, I'm through with you. You are a bad loser, that's all I know, that doesn't like to admit its mistakes. I said a long time ago that you should stick with history and don't state things you don't know much about, which I have proven again and again. Of course you can deflect and talk about my arrogance, but I told you way before that you had to take a step back from the field of economics and be a bit more modest.
Obviously you refused after which I had to point out to you the mistakes you had made in detail.

Well, I don't bother anymore, I just know (as well as the others that read this thread) that I'm right and you're wrong and that's enough for me.

And we certainly had integrals calculus and differentials in high school, but don't bother to trust me (maybe ask a fellow Dutchy????).

[Sir Turylon]

the mistake

Sweden has a higher GNP per capita...

the admitance.
Yeah. I did not know Sweden's actual GDP per capita back then

All you've really proven, Ben, is that with all your knowledge about "economics and business", you still do not know how to discuss these matters with people who have less knowledge in those fields without resorting to arrogant "sesame street inuendos".

FYI, I never posted that I knew much about economics (which I do, just practical economics... not statistical). You made the assumption that I was trying to pass myself off as one.

G'day, to you sir.


PS.
Well, I don't bother anymore, I just know (as well as the others that read this thread) that I'm right and you're wrong and that's enough for me.

I hope you do not approach your studies in this manner.

[Ben Nevis]

You still haven't admitted your distribution mistake, have you?

I really don't understand what's wrong with your mindset. I tell you that I've seen second year books of students that majored in math in Santa Cruz and I told you that we did the same in high school, why would you doubt this?????

Have you seen our maths books???? I don't think so. Is the level to high for a highschool for you to grasp???? maybe. Let me tell you that our educational system is completely different. Before we go to high school (12 years) we go through loads of psychological tests that test our intelligence, after which we are sent to one of three types of schools based on this intelligence. Thus we group the smart ones together, the average ones together and the not so smart ones together. I know this sounds really strange to Americans (and also other nationalities, also European nationalities), but the major advantage is that the level is significantly higher, which boils down to doing the same level in high school as you do in the first year(s) of university for subjects such as economics, physics, biology, chemics, maths and even history. Again I don't want to sound arrogant, I just want to make it more plausible to you that we learn in highschool what you learn in university.

Another thing I got angry about is the media thing. If I'm in a position to speak three languages and compare the various media while I'm in the US than I have an advantage over you. In such a case you could have trusted me when I said the American media are "not as good" (euphemism) as the Dutch, German and British media, but you just won't believe me. You don't know anything about it and start defending that all media are bad and no unbiased media exists, blablabla, but you don't know yourself. You haven't experienced it yourself and you don't look it up on the Internet, either.

And then you start calling me naive, narrowminden etc. etc.

I just wanted to explain you why you make me angry and I hope you understand. You don't use facts, correct sources, personal experiences. You don't trust people and you don't acknowledge your mistakes.

I'm a great discusser, I love to discuss, but I deserve some respect from you and not just comments on my naivity nor on my narrowmindedness.

and again stay with your field of study and respect others field of study just like they do yours

Amen

:cheers:

P.S.: This was my last post on this thread.

Sorry (I promised not to post again, thus I had to edit). Don't eat me Knightly sword please don't!!!!!!!!!!!!! (I have diversed my energy to another thread I just opened, you won't see me here again, I promise (again)

GROUPHUG!!!!!!!!!

:hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug:

(I know it's just a copy paste, but at least I have the copyright

;) )

[the knightly sword]

ben and turylon please stop this stupid fight its getting to madness. just stop replying to this thread .my only advice =relax and talk about some thing before you start a fact war.now apologize to each other or i will eat you alive (joke:) ) .but seriously apologize to each other ok you just have to. after that you have to promise to not post anything to this stupid thread:)

[Siena]

Originally posted by Sir Turylon
so much hate from you anti-americans. lol.


really, what arrogance...
Why would you assume, that you represent all americans?

You just represent the extremely closed minded view.

It is just ridiculous to see the "we" in almost every sentence of yours. Did you personally affect the American policy in any substantial way?

You seem to be just a "couch politician" who is happy to be born on a more powerful side. I would like to see your arguments if you were born in Russia...

It would be: "we fight terrorism in Chechnya... we were tricked by the West and traitor Gorbatchiov and we lost Baltic republics..." and that kind of stuff...

[Sir Turylon]

@Siena

I speak my own opinion on matters, just like all the rest of you do. I'm no diplomat...

No, actually, not narrow-minded. It is more I am passionate about my own morals, ethics, and opinion on matters. I do respect other views, but only if that person respects my view. If you resort to saying "I am right and you are wrong" when it is based on an opinion.... you need to wisen up and understand that opinions are just that... opinions.

@Ben. Distribution mistake? oh... ahh... I see what u are saying now.. (had to cut through all the hate-speech :angel: ).
We could also measure the distribution of income in a more simple way by comparing the mean and the median of the GDP
Like you said, you can use the GDP to messure the distribution. :) k. that's it.. hope nadine closes it now..

[Finellach]

I must say I don't have no respect over US policy.
I don't have respect for country that wages war against others to earn more profit.
I don't respect the country that kills it's presidents and covers it up.
I don't respect the country that doesn't respect non-americans and what is more important it's own citizen
I don't respect the country that meddles in the affairs and democratic development of other countries
I don't like countries that try to justify their occuppations with "liberation".
I just don't like the US goverment as whole.... and I don't mean democrats or republicans I mean the whole establishment behind the goverment, the real goverment and power that pulls the strings of presidents and the elected ministers.

The "freedom of speech" in US is just big cover up for the biggest conspiracy of all times. America is built by freemanson and opportunists. The fake "freedom" is supressed ever day by five seconds delays, varios committees that cover up evidence and God knows what else...

US presidents get killed if they go against big corporations that back them up....I mean really...if that is the "purest democracy of the world" then I don't know what that word means.

Excuse my words...I am just another anarachist and anti-globalist...:rolleyes:

[Sir Turylon]

moo!

Who saves us from democracy itself? The penguins, that is who!

You sound like Hyde on "That 70's Show"

LOL

[Drake Maethor]

Originally posted by Finellach
I must say I don't have no respect over US policy.
I don't have respect for country that wages war against others to earn more profit.
I don't respect the country that kills it's presidents and covers it up.
I don't respect the country that doesn't respect non-americans and what is more important it's own citizen
I don't respect the country that meddles in the affairs and democratic development of other countries
I don't like countries that try to justify their occuppations with "liberation".
I just don't like the US goverment as whole.... and I don't mean democrats or republicans I mean the whole establishment behind the goverment, the real goverment and power that pulls the strings of presidents and the elected ministers.

The "freedom of speech" in US is just big cover up for the biggest conspiracy of all times. America is built by freemanson and opportunists. The fake "freedom" is supressed ever day by five seconds delays, varios committees that cover up evidence and God knows what else...

US presidents get killed if they go against big corporations that back them up....I mean really...if that is the "purest democracy of the world" then I don't know what that word means.

Excuse my words...I am just another anarachist and anti-globalist...:rolleyes:

I KNEW IT I KNEW IT I KNEW IT!!!!
THE CROATIAN REX IS STILL LONGING FOR BLOOD!!!
TAKE THEM CHAMP! :cheers:
:rofl:
COME TAKE THE CHAMPION'S BELT! YOU'VE BEEN ABSENT FOR TOO LONG!

[Spudster]

I once heard a quote that said this:

"All that evil needs to flourish, is for good men to do nothing"

with the US being one of the most powerful countries in the world, i believe it needs to play 'police man' and help out smaller countries who cant do anything under dictatorship. The Spanish-American War was fought because of this reason....Spain was ruling over Cuba like a dictator, so America helped and i believe that Cuba was happy. I also think that Iraqi's are quite happy that they can actually have freedom. I recieved this by forwards from others by e-mail by an American soldier in Iraq:

This is a letter from Ray Reynolds, a medic in the Iowa Army National
>Guard,
> >serving in Iraq:
> > As I head off to Baghdad for the final weeks of my stay in
>Iraq, I
> >wanted to say thanks to all of you who did not believe the media. They
>have done
> >a very poor job of covering everything that has happened. I am sorry
>that I
> >have not been able to visit all of you during my two week leave back
>home.
> >And just so you can rest at night knowing something is happening in
>Iraq that is
> >noteworthy, I thought I would pass this on to you. This is the list of
>
> >things that has happened in Iraq recently: (Please share it with your
>friends and
> >compare it to the version that your paper is producing.)
> >* Over 400,000 kids have up-to-date immunizations.
> >* School attendance is up 80% from levels before the war.
> >* Over 1,500 schools have been renovated and rid of the weapons stored
>there
> >so education can occur.
> >* The port of Uhm Qasar was renovated so grain can be off-loaded from
>ships
> >faster.
> >* The country had its first 2 billion barrel export of oil in August.
> >* Over 4.5 million people have clean drinking water for the first time
>ever
> >in Iraq.
> >* The country now receives 2 times the electrical power it did before
>the
> >war.
> >* 100% of the hospitals are open and fully staffed, compared to 35%
>before
> >the war.
> >* Elections are taking place in every major city, and city councils are
>in
> >place.
> >* Sewer and water lines are installed in every major city.
> >* Over 60,000 police are patrolling the streets.
> >* Over 100,000 Iraqi civil defense police are securing the country.
> >* Over 80,000 Iraqi soldiers are patrolling the streets side by side
>with US
> >soldiers.
> >* Over 400,000 people have telephones for the first time ever.
> >* Students are taught field sanitation and hand washing techniques to
>prevent
> >the spread of germs.
> >* An interim constitution has been signed.
> >* Girls are allowed to attend school.
> >a* Textbooks that don't mention Saddam are in the schools for the first
>time
> >in 30 years.
> > Don't believe for one second that these people do not want us
>there.
> >I have met many, many people from Iraq that want us there, and in a bad
>way.
> >They say they will never see the freedoms we talk about but they hope
>their
> >children will. We are doing a good job in Iraq and I challenge anyone,
>anywhere
> >to dispute me on these facts. So If you happen to run into John Kerry,
>be
> >sure to give him my e-mail address and send him to Denison, Iowa. This
>soldier
> >will set him straight. If you are like me and very disgusted with how
>this
> >period of rebuilding has been portrayed, e-mail this to a friend and
>let them know
> >there are good things happening.
> >Ray Reynolds, SFC
> >Iowa Army National Guard
> >234th Signal Battalion
>


I think America has many problems, but i also believe that for this country to become better, it needs to endure these problems....

[Siena]

Originally posted by Spudster
I once heard a quote that said this:

"All that evil needs to flourish, is for good men to do nothing"

with the US being one of the most powerful countries in the world, i believe it needs to play 'police man' and help out smaller countries who cant do anything under dictatorship. The Spanish-American War was fought because of this reason....Spain was ruling over Cuba like a dictator, so America helped and i believe that Cuba was happy.


well that sounds very well in theory, but in practice - this "helping" thing - is the most common justification for agression. It was that way since Roman times, it was repeated again and again by pretty much every agressor - they all wanted - to help - some of them "opressed peasants", some "fellow orthodox", some "fellow catholics", some "fellow protestans", some "fellow countrymen"... It is quite funny how similar all agressors are.

If Cuba is the best example of "helping fellow opressed" then it did not have a happy ending, did it?




Originally posted by Spudster

I also think that Iraqi's are quite happy that they can actually have freedom. I recieved this by forwards from others by e-mail by an American soldier in Iraq:

This is a letter from Ray Reynolds, a medic in the Iowa Army National
>Guard,
> >serving in Iraq:
> > As I head off to Baghdad for the final weeks of my stay in
>Iraq, I
> >wanted to say thanks to all of you who did not believe the media. They
>have done
> >a very poor job of covering everything that has happened. I am sorry
>that I
> >have not been able to visit all of you during my two week leave back
>home.
> >And just so you can rest at night knowing something is happening in
>Iraq that is
> >noteworthy, I thought I would pass this on to you. This is the list of
>
> >things that has happened in Iraq recently: (Please share it with your
>friends and
> >compare it to the version that your paper is producing.)
> >* Over 400,000 kids have up-to-date immunizations.
> >* School attendance is up 80% from levels before the war.
> >* Over 1,500 schools have been renovated and rid of the weapons stored
>there
> >so education can occur.
> >* The port of Uhm Qasar was renovated so grain can be off-loaded from
>ships
> >faster.
> >* The country had its first 2 billion barrel export of oil in August.
> >* Over 4.5 million people have clean drinking water for the first time
>ever
> >in Iraq.
> >* The country now receives 2 times the electrical power it did before
>the
> >war.
> >* 100% of the hospitals are open and fully staffed, compared to 35%
>before
> >the war.
> >* Elections are taking place in every major city, and city councils are
>in
> >place.
> >* Sewer and water lines are installed in every major city.
> >* Over 60,000 police are patrolling the streets.
> >* Over 100,000 Iraqi civil defense police are securing the country.
> >* Over 80,000 Iraqi soldiers are patrolling the streets side by side
>with US
> >soldiers.
> >* Over 400,000 people have telephones for the first time ever.
> >* Students are taught field sanitation and hand washing techniques to
>prevent
> >the spread of germs.
> >* An interim constitution has been signed.
> >* Girls are allowed to attend school.
> >a* Textbooks that don't mention Saddam are in the schools for the first
>time
> >in 30 years.
> > Don't believe for one second that these people do not want us
>there.
> >I have met many, many people from Iraq that want us there, and in a bad
>way.
> >They say they will never see the freedoms we talk about but they hope
>their
> >children will. We are doing a good job in Iraq and I challenge anyone,
>anywhere
> >to dispute me on these facts. So If you happen to run into John Kerry,
>be
> >sure to give him my e-mail address and send him to Denison, Iowa. This
>soldier
> >will set him straight. If you are like me and very disgusted with how
>this
> >period of rebuilding has been portrayed, e-mail this to a friend and
>let them know
> >there are good things happening.
> >Ray Reynolds, SFC
> >Iowa Army National Guard
> >234th Signal Battalion
>




well, you know I get many offers in e-mail too... I am sure they are all true... :p
Sure, "Ray Renolds" may be a real person, but again it can be just a propaganda e-mail... At least that what it looks like to me.

[Siena]

There it is about that Ray Renolds letter:

http://www.orwelliantimes.com/2004/04/26.html

seems like the guy really exists and he just likes to write propaganda....

[Sir Turylon]

lol. no, those are not propaganda emails. You can go and search for facts from Iraq on the state department's website.

@Siena and comparing US helping others to Roman empire.

One major point that you did not mention.

Rome stayed, America has never stayed unless the government or people of that country wanted us to.

Examples. South Korea, Japan, Germany, Suadi Arabia, Qatar, Cuba, Phillipines, China, France, Italy, England, Georgia, Uzbekistan, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Kuwait, Israel, Turkey, Panama, Grenada, Mexico, Marshalls, Austrailia, New Guinea, Morocco, and of course Iraq.

@cuba. the Spanish-American war was roughly something like 60 years BEFORE Fidel Castro took over. That's like comparing the Franco-Prussian war with Hitler. sorry.. won't work. :)

@ that website you posted. yep. believe in the the Ralph Nader political machine. he'd never try to stretch the truth in order to look better. use the USAID as a factual basis... it is more up-to-date than last August's information.