Main Topic: the war in Iraq... (again!). Triggerer: An article in the New York Times.

[Finellach]

Originally posted by Sir Turylon
once again, the european resorts to insulting the american without fullly knowing anything about them.. Typical attitude.

Can you please tell me what is insulting in presenting the facts? Are you ashamed because US started so many wars? You should be...

Seen a real war? lol.. you must be joking.... No, I just watch them on the TV... I have no clue of the real effects and consequences of war.. [/end sarcasm] Probably because we haven't fought a war in our own country since the 1860s....

You didn't answered my question. Have you ever saw a war from first hand? Have you ever expereinced it on your skin? Do you know what it does to people, to society? Obviously you don't.... :rolleyes:

The greatest nation, maknig sure it's population lives in peace.... Oh, I think we've done that.. for over the past 140 years.


Excatly...all you care is about yourself and who screws other...let's just nuke them....right? Nice atitude...you would make a perfect Geroge Bush Jr....

To bring peace in today's world.. you need more than just one country. Who will do it? France? they don't give a ****. Russia? they're too concerned with internal strife. China? They're too interested in preserving their socialist state. the EU? they're too busy trying to compete with America. the UN? They're too busy covering up their own scandels.. lol. the list grows thin.

How about you let UN do it's job instead of constant undermining of it's efforts.

Let's make a list of all the things Croatia has done to spread peace in the world for the past.. 20 years.

You are comparing Croatia with USA? LOL
Please tell me where have you been 60 years ago when you basiclly handed over the Croatian people to Soviets?

If you ask me, it sounds like Europe is screaming at us going over to Iraq mainly because they want the attention. key word is.. they. Every time I hear some European nation besides Poland, England, Italy, Germany, Turkey, Portugal, Denmark speak up.. it is always "They do not think this is right.. They do not want this to happen." Sounds like some people are being.. selfish... how ironic.

Obviously you don't understand. Today it's Iraq the next day it may be France, it may be Russia...whenever it suits your goals you will disregard the people of the world and do what you please. I am sorry, but that will not work anymore and USA is not alone on this planet. Get it?

question over WMD is gone.

There never was any question anyway. Unless you are talking about shameless fabrications?

Yet Europeans are still protesting over it... Well, sorry fellas, you had your chance to jump on the winning team. Now ya'll just wanna go to the celebration afterwards. lol.

You know such an arrogant and extremly stupid atitude will be the downfall of USA. If you continue with the current policy WW3 is very posibble....obviously you don't understand that.

What do you think no national borders means? No soveriegnty. period. You will all turn into nothing more than EU states.. the United States of Europe. Will not be able to do what is best for your nation, since you will be nothing more than a sub-group of the EU.

Fine with me. ;)
I don't care about that, what I care is about how good life will I lead and in what kind of world will my children live in and their children and so on.

Maybe that is good for you all.. You might even be able to manage 140 years of no conflicts between each other like the USA has done. lol.

I don't see that you manged that. USA is constantly at war. They may not be led on your soil, but they are still wars. USA is from the WW2 almost constantly in war with someone.

[Sir Turylon]

You know such an arrogant and extremly stupid atitude will be the downfall of USA. If you continue with the current policy WW3 is very posibble....obviously you don't understand that.

Aww, the little liberal european called me arrogant.. I'm so.. hurt.... Such arrogance from supposedly "friends of the US." I have to laugh at you people. You say "Let's be friends and you can come help us when we need protection for Soviets and others... But don't expect us to return the friendship and help when you need it." Such selfish people. Maybe we should have let the Soviets keep control over your countries, instead of bringing their empire down in the 1980s.

lol Finellach.. I could tell you what is going to happen.. but being that you are most likely a humanist... you'd never believe it.

It's funny, really.. the evidence of what is to come to past in front of your face, yet you reject it.

@ the horrible native slaughter. YES, all indians should be shot or put on reservations! Kill them all! A it was a war. the Indian Wars... any half-intelligent studier of history would know that. Apparently, you do not know much about it, since the native conflicts actually began BEFORE the 1860s. They atually began back in the 1700s... Guess you've never heard of a little something called the French and Indian or 7 years war... eh?

Finellach, you are such an arrogant and narrow-minded little fella, it's funny... It's amazing. You do not think that any single statement that is contrary to your own might be right. Did your schools teach you to hate us? Do you hate the US because we do not give you $20 billion a year? You sound just like the very thing you are accusing America of being... Nothing less than a selfish little spoiled child that whines and whines when he doesn't get his way.

[Haegemon]

Originally posted by Hector
you should be our foreign minister

you got some skills at planning:hello: :hello:

what were we foolish by thinking of peace phah
war is fun!

You should be the minister of celebrations and propaganda. :cheers:


Originally posted by Sir Turylon Aww, the little liberal european called me arrogant.. I'm so.. hurt.... Such arrogance from supposedly "friends of the US." I have to laugh at you people. You say "Let's be friends and you can come help us when we need protection for Soviets and others... But don't expect us to return the friendship and help when you need it." Such selfish people. Maybe we should have let the Soviets keep control over your countries, instead of bringing their empire down in the 1980s.

Friends when needed, not to do whatever you want. We're not vassals. Nobody protested when you went to Afganistan due to the 11S to seek Bin Laden. That was the main target, but you failed, and then you took out Irak of the pocket. In Afganitan there are UE troops. Spain has to send there 1000 men more.

And we HAD an 11M when fellows of the brigads Al-Mansry. Made to blow up 4 commuter trains, one of them inside the station in the rush hour.

Btw Soviet union fell by its own, cos the 'glasnost'. Was Mihail Gorbachev who weaked URRS.


Originally posted by Jarlabanke
As for Europe being a superpower, we already are economicly and there really isn't much of a reason for us to be it militarily, to have popular support of a large military you need something to do with it and that is really not something that I think we would want. Personally I don't see terrorism as such a big threat to Europe, at least I didn't before some of the european countries got involved in Iraq. Why the planes crashed in NY instead of for example London is not really that hard to see IMO.


Yes, Spain was there. But it was a political decision taken alone by the president and later backed by his party due the discipline they had. Here in Spain, when we saw our former president fighting against UE like if were something personal, and later in the Azores with Bush and Blair, all people got astonished, nobody could belive it. :beek: When the time passed, the war started and we got involved, the citizens became really angry, also opostion partys. Only 1 of every 300 civillians suported that decision. Then started the massive protests in all the country, cos that was the last spot in that govement, ...before was their usefulness with the Prestidge (petrol carrier), the control of the public media they managed, a troops transport rented crap of plane which crashed in Turkey, and the internal stress between autonomical regions and the govment.
All that grew till the 11-M, when exploded with the bombs all the bad feelings against the govement, which everydody imputed the responsability of an attack unwanted due to the implication in a war unwanted. The same week that govment was kicked off the power.
People still think we were a target cos the govment decided to put the face over the map, and worse in something unclean.
The ex-president which became a 'good friend' of the Texan, now he'll have a 'temporary job' in EEUU.

[Kuno of Gersenau]

@ the horrible native slaughter. YES, all indians should be shot or put on reservations! Kill them all! A it was a war. the Indian Wars... any half-intelligent studier of history would know that. Apparently, you do not know much about it, since the native conflicts actually began BEFORE the 1860s. They atually began back in the 1700s... Guess you've never heard of a little something called the French and Indian or 7 years war... eh? hey calm down guy! What have I done to you that you call me less than half-intelligent? :angry:
I know that there was a massacre since the day when Columbus discovered America. but you always said that in YOUR opinion a war is only if you declear war...
I didn't say that you agree with this! But did one of your governments already excuse for this?

EDIT: I would like to have an answer from you Turylon, because I want to know why you offend me, because I didn't offend you (or at least didn't want it like I said)! But after this, in my opinion this tread can be closed!

And short OT(if this is even more possible): Why do you so much dislike (I would nearly say hate) humanists. They live the way they want and it isn't really decent to make bad statements about them. Clear this is also so for the other way.

[Finellach]

Aww, the little liberal european called me arrogant.. I'm so.. hurt.... Such arrogance from supposedly "friends of the US." I have to laugh at you people. You say "Let's be friends and you can come help us when we need protection for Soviets and others... But don't expect us to return the friendship and help when you need it." Such selfish people. Maybe we should have let the Soviets keep control over your countries, instead of bringing their empire down in the 1980s.

What Soviets? Croatia was in Yugoslavia, you never helped us with anything. We had to make USSSR back off ourselves. Also if you refer to the Cold War let me remind you that US is equally wrong for it.

Btw. I don't see that you brought down anything. They fell apart themselves, but as it seems now it just a minor setback since Russia is on the old track of old Imperial Russia.

lol Finellach.. I could tell you what is going to happen.. but being that you are most likely a humanist... you'd never believe it.

It's funny, really.. the evidence of what is to come to past in front of your face, yet you reject it.

If you choose that idiot for president again I know very well what will happen...and so do you.

Finellach, you are such an arrogant and narrow-minded little fella, it's funny... It's amazing. You do not think that any single statement that is contrary to your own might be right. Did your schools teach you to hate us? Do you hate the US because we do not give you $20 billion a year? You sound just like the very thing you are accusing America of being... Nothing less than a selfish little spoiled child that whines and whines when he doesn't get his way.

Why thank you. YOu do realize of course that ad hominem attacks are the first sign of lack of arguemnts? ;)
I do not hate USA I dislike it's current policy, I dislike the fact US goverment is disregarding the rest of the world like they are the only one living on this planet. The wars you started(USA) do not affect only you and the country you are attacking but the whole regions and the whole world.
Now I don't see who of two of us seems more like spoiled child since I am not the one who is resorting to simple offending when I lack the arguments. If anyone here seems to be whining it is most definately you.

[Ben Nevis]

ok guys, I don't think we are getting any closer to each other's standpoints in this thread (Except for the Americans and the Europeans that generally agree amongst themselves). I think we should stop posting. After seven pages there is still the same debate going on, thus I would suggest talking about something else (maybe what should be the legal age to start drinking and should marihuana be legalized, I'll open the thread right away). I particularly urge Lord Turylon to stop posting having commented he wanted this thread closed a couple of times. As Elewyn already mentioned, not posting is the easiest way to close this thread.

Go in peace (to the other "political" thread)

:cheers:

[d'Honaire]

I will try to make this short, but I will say though, it is not my place to criticize the decisions made by the President. I will follow the orders of the President and the Officers appointed over me.
Without being too heated in this discussion, I have known many that have been injured, and a few, that were killed in Iraq. Actually, my best friend was hit by an IED, so I understand the human toll of this war. I feel that if you do not know anyone, or have been there yourself, do not presume to think that what the US is doing is wrong.
It is my place to do and not wonder why, if any of you were or are in the military, this should make sense to you. :cheers:

[Hector]

I will try to make this short, but I will say though, it is not my place to criticize the decisions made by the President. I will follow the orders of the President and the Officers appointed over me.
Without being too heated in this discussion, I have known many that have been injured, and a few, that were killed in Iraq. Actually, my best friend was hit by an IED, so I understand the human toll of this war. I feel that if you do not know anyone, or have been there yourself, do not presume to think that what the US is doing is wrong.
It is my place to do and not wonder why, if any of you were or are in the military, this should make sense to you. :cheers:


same reason of the german soldiers in second world war follow orders no mather how creul.

[Sir Turylon]

"Ours is not to reason why, Ours is just to do or die." Semper Fi.

@Kuno. I meant no "hatred" when i wrote that..
And short OT(if this is even more possible): Why do you so much dislike (I would nearly say hate) humanists. They live the way they want and it isn't really decent to make bad statements about them. Clear this is also so for the other way.
I'll PM you my response.

[Siena]

I will try to make this short, but I will say though, it is not my place to criticize the decisions made by the President. I will follow the orders of the President and the Officers appointed over me.
Without being too heated in this discussion, I have known many that have been injured, and a few, that were killed in Iraq. Actually, my best friend was hit by an IED, so I understand the human toll of this war. I feel that if you do not know anyone, or have been there yourself, do not presume to think that what the US is doing is wrong.
It is my place to do and not wonder why, if any of you were or are in the military, this should make sense to you. :cheers:

well, if you are in the military - I guess it is your duty.
Nevertheless, if you have a power to vote, you should be able to think...

[Finellach]

Yes and as the president Bush said: "We can all agree, the past is over." :rofl:

[Kuno of Gersenau]

"Ours is not to reason why, Ours is just to do or die." Semper Fi.

@Kuno. I meant no "hatred" when i wrote that..

I'll PM you my response.
ok, all is clear. have a :cheers:

[Sir Turylon]

well, if you are in the military - I guess it is your duty.
Nevertheless, if you have a power to vote, you should be able to think...


For once, I agree Siena. How I hate ignorant voters. I wouldn't go as far as saying that all military men and women vote Republican. It's not a zombie army like the USSR had. If I remember correctly from the Land Battle Doctrine, officers are suppose to show individualism in combat. If they see something that their commanders do not, like an exploit of weakness, they are encouraged to take it.

[Ledhead]

Seriously guys...this will hurt, and it's not really my intention...but some of you with that "don't question, just do" attitude are beginning to sound like what many obedient Germans did 60 years ago...
I can't say that you're there right by their side, but you're showing the same symptoms.
You need to start question your leaders, you're the only ones that can!
It's your country and leaders, but it's our, us together, world.

[Haegemon]

I will try to make this short, but I will say though, it is not my place to criticize the decisions made by the President. I will follow the orders of the President and the Officers appointed over me.
Without being too heated in this discussion, I have known many that have been injured, and a few, that were killed in Iraq. Actually, my best friend was hit by an IED, so I understand the human toll of this war. I feel that if you do not know anyone, or have been there yourself, do not presume to think that what the US is doing is wrong.
It is my place to do and not wonder why, if any of you were or are in the military, this should make sense to you. :cheers:

Of couse for a soldier orders are orders. Except those that go farer in the bad way and conscience can't stand. Like did that MP who denounced to his superiors in command the tortures in Abu Graim. I :cheers: for him.

[Sir Turylon]

Seriously guys...this will hurt, and it's not really my intention...but some of you with that "don't question, just do" attitude are beginning to sound like what many obedient Germans did 60 years ago...
I can't say that you're there right by their side, but you're showing the same symptoms.
You need to start question your leaders, you're the only ones that can!
It's your country and leaders, but it's our, us together, world.


um........

you misunderstand. It is not a matter of questioning your leaders. If you have an army where the privates question the orders of the sergeants, and the captains question the generals for no good reason... you'd end up not getting anything accomplished... Sort of like what happened in WW1...

Do you question your leader directly? Do you agree with him? Do you ever disagree with him?

I do not agree with everything Bush does. The reason I will vote for him is that I disagree with Kerry more than I disagree with Bush. Go ahead and ask before you say that people that follow the "Ours is not to reason why..." mentality are all zombies slaved to one man's will.

@Hagey.

Aye :cheers: to him. He saw something being done by some fellow soldiers and reported it. I really would like to see those soldiers put in Levanworth prison for about 5-10 years.

[Haegemon]

@Hagey.

Aye :cheers: to him. He saw something being done by some fellow soldiers and reported it. I really would like to see those soldiers put in Levanworth prison for about 5-10 years.

Yes, but first would know if there were high rank personel implicated. And then put all them in Sinc Sinc. :cool:

[Sir Turylon]

Yes, but first would know if there were high rank personel implicated. And then put all them in Sinc Sinc. :cool:

Sing Sing? no. Levanworth is worst. :)

I severely doubt it will go higher than the prison. (eventhough the stupid democrats want it to). hehe.

[Haegemon]

Sing Sing? no. Levanworth is worst. :)

I severely doubt it will go higher than the prison. (eventhough the stupid democrats want it to). hehe.

You can reopen Alcatraz... :D

Your "beloved" Kerry has a partner. John & John Corp. :)

[Kuno of Gersenau]

And the next will be a hatefull post against John & John from our member Turylon...I would wonder if i wasn't right...:D