Main Topic: the war in Iraq... (again!). Triggerer: An article in the New York Times.

[Sir Turylon]

If you are refering to superpower in arms no I don't wish it. If you refer to ecenomical strenght Europe is already a superpower...much stronger than USA. Btw. I don't see what is this "greatness" you are talking about? Do you consider having nuclear bomb as greatness? Do you consider having the largest army in the world as greatness...you must live in a very lonely world it you find joy in this....

No, armies fluctuate up and down. I'm talking about having a strong economy and other such factors. BTW, EU is far ways away from having a free market like ours. :/ You'd have to loose all national soveriengty to accomplish it. IE.. no national borders.

Hmmm...let'see...in my short life of 22 USA has led at least 5-6 wars. Tell me which other country has led so many wars in the same period? No don't answer it's rhetorical question

Wow. 22 years. I've been here for 25 and only seen... let's see.... 2!!!! Gulf War and War on Terrorism. Are you saying Bosnia, Somalia, Panama, Greneda, the scuffle with Libya are wars? lol.... no no... wars are declared. others are called.. "interdiction and or... police actions."

Hmm.. 22 years. I could say.. France. during late 1700s. I think about.. 7-8 for Napoleon. Italy, Spani, England, Prussia, Russia, Egypt... maybe more.. not sure.

[Drake Maethor]

Hey Turylon!!!
Are you serious????

Are you really saying that wars aren't wars if they aren't declared???
Please! Let's don't talk bull****!

[Hector]

Originally posted by Spudster
you know having a nuclear bomb isnt very logical because there are 27, 000 nuclear bombs in the world...enough to blow the world up like 50 times....

excuse me but Russia has 27000 nuke's alone and US 12000 something like that plus other countrys so there is alot more.

[Siena]

eureka!!!!

I found the solution to this disagreement!!!!

I think Europeans should stop being naive and childish! They should stop being jealous of American power and arm themselves more.

Then Europeans should go and liberate some oil rich country! I would propose Saudi Arabia. Let's leave Iraq to whom it belongs - to Americans. They earned it.

Europeans should liberate something on their own!

Why Saudi Arabia? Let's see...
I am pretty sure Saudi Arabia will have weapons of mass destruction in 100 years or so. Also, Saudi Arabia is not really democratic, and the most importantly - it has oil!!!

So, I say, let's be men, let's help poor opressed Saudis!

Do you want to leave all liberating to Americans? Don't be so selfish. Americans liberated enough already.

So - I say - why argue?
Aren't there enough oil rich coutries for all to liberate?

So let's be men, let's eliminate this future threat, let's strike preemptively!!!

[Hector]

Originally posted by Siena
eureka!!!!

I found the solution to this disagreement!!!!

I think Europeans should stop being naive and childish! They should stop being jealous of American power and arm themselves more.

Then Europeans should go and liberate some oil rich country! I would propose Saudi Arabia. Let's leave Iraq to whom it belongs - to Americans. They earned it.

Europeans should liberate something on their own!

Why Saudi Arabia? Let's see...
I am pretty sure Saudi Arabia will have weapons of mass destruction in 100 years or so. Also, Saudi Arabia is not really democratic, and the most importantly - it has oil!!!

So, I say, let's be men, let's help poor opressed Saudis!

Do you want to leave all liberating to Americans? Don't be so selfish. Americans liberated enough already.

So - I say - why argue?
Aren't there enough oil rich coutries for all to liberate?

When do we start hurry man i cant wait

btw why dont we add iran to:cheers:

oil for free rocks!

[Haegemon]

Only Saudi Arabia and Iran...? :( , I propose all the Middle East included Israel, which its never declared nuclear arsenar is a real threat, & we should target our remnant soviet nukes on the hostiles to evade possible retaliation.

:cheers:


War on Terroism...? what's this holliwoodian title mean exactly.

[Hector]

Originally posted by Haegemon
Only Saudi Arabia and Iran...? :( , I propose all the Middle East included Israel, which its never declared nuclear arsenar is a real threat, & we should target our remnant soviet nukes on the hostiles to evade possible retaliation.

:cheers:


War on Terroism...? what's this holliwoodian title mean exactly.

cheers with our great middle east plan

- we not going to declare war cuz then it is not counted as war:D great!!!!

- we are there to free the people but instead we rob them and put them in jail ( evil ):angel: !!!!

etc. this is my part of the plan

[Siena]

:cheers:

perfect, guys, now we are talking :p

:cheers:

let's not be shy, let's make this liberation worth our while :p

sure, why not all middle east?

Then, if we are men enough, maybe we can wrestle some oil from Russians too :p

Maybe after that Americans will get impressed and give Alaska for free? :p
So, sky is the limit for the good liberation plan :)

Don't you feel better already? :p

Now can you see why Sir Turylon is so happy? He is on liberating side....

[Hector]

Originally posted by Siena
:cheers:

perfect, guys, now we are talking :p

:cheers:

let's not be shy, let's make this liberation worth our while :p

sure, why not all middle east?

Then, if we are men enough, maybe we can wrestle some oil from Russians too :p

Maybe after that Americans will get impressed and give Alaska for free? :p
So, sky is the limit for the good liberation plan :)

Don't you feel better already? :p

Now can you see why Sir Turylon is so happy? He is on liberating side....

:rofl:

[Angryminer]

At first Europe has to evolve a new constitution that allows it to properly and rapidly react on politics. I still think the new constitution is far from good .

Angryminer

[Haegemon]

:rolf:

Yeah... I :cheers: for our Master Plan...

Liberate all the Middle East included Israel. Those states with dictators to spread democracy our own way, and those who haven't to expose their false democracy, their mass-destruction-weapons' arsenals, and their ties with undesired groups. Why? cos we can, cos they're a menace for our soverein, and cos they're a menace for our econonmy, and with our economy the world's economy, cos we're the world. The others only are a handful of envious ignorants.

:cheers:

We'll occupy their countries to register every hole to find everything that could justify us, at least the first months or maybe years.
We'll detain every person we think it's a suspect to put it in a dungeon and interrogate till it says something useful to us. If not we'll mantain it in jail till we get tired of it.

:cheers:

We'll target our remnant soviet nukes on the hostiles to evade possible retaliations. Those nations who oppose us will be in the black-list. Those who try to do their way, without our approval will be 'the evil axis'. Every nation will be respectful and pleasant with us o we'll have to put it in the anti-european list.

:cheers:

Come on Europe, wake up. Now it's your age again. :lol: For our freedom, for our plans. :cheers:

[Siena]

I think all Europe needs is Bush for a president. Who needs contitution, when they have Bush?
Bush will find the way to start a war...

We can call this - "Operation Cheap Oil" or "Operation Get Your Oil" or "Operation Oil Freedom" Or "Operation Free The Oil" - sort of like crusade..

secret codename - "Blood For Oil" or "Get That Oil From Those Fools"

More seriously speaking - why constitution? Does American constitution say: "You have a right to preemtively attack weaker countries with oil"?

[Finellach]

Originally posted by Sir Turylon
No, armies fluctuate up and down. I'm talking about having a strong economy and other such factors. BTW, EU is far ways away from having a free market like ours. :/ You'd have to loose all national soveriengty to accomplish it. IE.. no national borders.

EU is actually all about removing national borders. It shows how little you know about European Union. :p

Btw. as I mentioned EU is already econimcally much stronger than US and it has much more free market than USA has for example. Europe doesn't allow monopolism unlike USA, EU doesn't ban and makes firms from US pay more taxes and such unlike US. You even got embargo by the EU because of this so much about your "free market". :D

Wow. 22 years. I've been here for 25 and only seen... let's see.... 2!!!! Gulf War and War on Terrorism. Are you saying Bosnia, Somalia, Panama, Greneda, the scuffle with Libya are wars? lol.... no no... wars are declared. others are called.. "interdiction and or... police actions."

No these were all child play....war is a war no matter how you choose to call it. A bomb is a bomb and a bullet is a bullet. You obviously never saw a real war so you don't know what you are talking about...if you knew you wouldn't say such stupid things.

On the wars let's see: two Gulf wars, war in Aghanistan, war in Iraq, Panama, Grenada....I think that is enough.... :rolleyes:

You would think that the "most advanced country" would do everything to bring peace not war....

@Siena: you get the drift :go:

[Jarlabanke]

@Sir Tyrlon
If wars have to be declared I'd like you to explain what that little conflict in Vietnam was or the part the Japanese played in WW2. Oh and the Un couldn't have supported either of the first world wars as it didn't exist until after the second, not that it really matters in the discussion though.
If you count every nation napoleon was up against you're going to have a lot more seeing how he fought several of them twice.

As for Europe being a superpower, we already are economicly and there really isn't much of a reason for us to be it militarily, to have popular support of a large military you need something to do with it and that is really not something that I think we would want. Personally I don't see terrorism as such a big threat to Europe, at least I didn't before some of the european countries got involved in Iraq. Why the planes crashed in NY instead of for example London is not really that hard to see IMO.

Concerning g the discussion on Palestine/Isreal earlier, I'd just like to remind you that what today is the Isreali Army used to be a terrorgroup called Hagannah (or something similar). The state of Isreal as it looks today wasn't really sactioned by anyone, they declared their own independence once Hagannah had occupied a lot of territory which from the beginning was supposed to have been a part of Palestine, that they later occupied the rest of it (and still are occupying it more or less) only makes the thing worse, as does the fact that they won't let Palestinians refugees return to thier homes and that they've made a law saying that a house that has been empty for a specific period can be claimed by anyone. So even if they let the refugees return, their homes would already be taken.

[Sir Turylon]

Originally posted by Finellach
EU is actually all about removing national borders. It shows how little you know about European Union. :p



You obviously never saw a real war so you don't know what you are talking about...if you knew you wouldn't say such stupid things.




once again, the european resorts to insulting the american without fullly knowing anything about them.. Typical attitude.

Seen a real war? lol.. you must be joking.... No, I just watch them on the TV... I have no clue of the real effects and consequences of war.. [/end sarcasm] Probably because we haven't fought a war in our own country since the 1860s....

The greatest nation, maknig sure it's population lives in peace.... Oh, I think we've done that.. for over the past 140 years.

To bring peace in today's world.. you need more than just one country. Who will do it? France? they don't give a ****. Russia? they're too concerned with internal strife. China? They're too interested in preserving their socialist state. the EU? they're too busy trying to compete with America. the UN? They're too busy covering up their own scandels.. lol. the list grows thin.

Let's make a list of all the things Croatia has done to spread peace in the world for the past.. 20 years.

If you ask me, it sounds like Europe is screaming at us going over to Iraq mainly because they want the attention. key word is.. they. Every time I hear some European nation besides Poland, England, Italy, Germany, Turkey, Portugal, Denmark speak up.. it is always "They do not think this is right.. They do not want this to happen." Sounds like some people are being.. selfish... how ironic.

anyways... this debate should be closed. Iraq war has been over. We won.. (that is.. Iraq, England, USA, and the other 38 or so coalition nations) Saddam is gone. Terrorist breeding ground is now gone. question over WMD is gone. War criminals are being brought to trial... Yet Europeans are still protesting over it... Well, sorry fellas, you had your chance to jump on the winning team. Now ya'll just wanna go to the celebration afterwards. lol.

EU is actually all about removing national borders. It shows how little you know about European Unio

I'll end with this. Nice selective memory there buddy! What did I say in that post?
You'd have to loose all national soveriengty to accomplish it. IE.. no national borders.

What do you think no national borders means? No soveriegnty. period. You will all turn into nothing more than EU states.. the United States of Europe. Will not be able to do what is best for your nation, since you will be nothing more than a sub-group of the EU.

Maybe that is good for you all.. You might even be able to manage 140 years of no conflicts between each other like the USA has done. lol.

(Remember, pre-civil war... IE, 1860s.. the states still thought they were above the federal government... couple hundred thousand deaths later.. no states were above the federal government.) Read up on it... You'll see what Europe is turning into.. 140 years after we did. Europe is Americanizing itself. lol.

[Hector]

Originally posted by Haegemon
:rolf:

Yeah... I :cheers: for our Master Plan...

Liberate all the Middle East included Israel. Those states with dictators to spread democracy our own way, and those who haven't to expose their false democracy, their mass-destruction-weapons' arsenals, and their ties with undesired groups. Why? cos we can, cos they're a menace for our soverein, and cos they're a menace for our econonmy, and with our economy the world's economy, cos we're the world. The others only are a handful of envious ignorants.

:cheers:

We'll occupy their countries to register every hole to find everything that could justify us, at least the first months or maybe years.
We'll detain every person we think it's a suspect to put it in a dungeon and interrogate till it says something useful to us. If not we'll mantain it in jail till we get tired of it.

:cheers:

We'll target our remnant soviet nukes on the hostiles to evade possible retaliations. Those nations who oppose us will be in the black-list. Those who try to do their way, without our approval will be 'the evil axis'. Every nation will be respectful and pleasant with us o we'll have to put it in the anti-european list.

:cheers:

Come on Europe, wake up. Now it's your age again. :lol: For our freedom, for our plans. :cheers:

you should be our foreign minister

you got some skills at planning:hello: :hello:

what were we foolish by thinking of peace phah
war is fun!

[Sir Turylon]

I really hope Europe never has a 9/11 type event. so sad. so very sad.

[Jarlabanke]

The Iraq war makes it all the more likely to happen though...

[Kuno of Gersenau]

@Turylon: If you say no war during the last 140 years, then you don't include a dark chapter, the massacers at the Indians, do you? I won't be sarcastic, but I think to know that this massacre was also after the civil war...correct me if I'm wrong...

PS: I know, you will say that USA didn't declare war to the indians (did they?) but they killed them and this is the only fact who is important...

[Siena]

Originally posted by Sir Turylon
I really hope Europe never has a 9/11 type event. so sad. so very sad.

So what are your arguments or tying 9/11 with Iraq?