Religion question

[Frujin]

Finellach, you could read the article I gave you to the end :)

[Elewyn]

Yea, Finellach. I don't know your sources, but "national" books try to make many things be original from their country (I keep in mind national vs natianalistic!, so I repeat once again:national). One Czech historician put origin of Waldenses into Bohemia however it's not true. I also heard that Great Moravia was in the Balkans (around river Morava in Balkans) instead of Moravia.

Of course Bulgarians and people from Balkan should know more about Bgomils than the English or Germans. But everytime it's beter to see arguments of both sides. Give us yours. Regarding their doctrine which is inspired by "eastern christianity" (more easternward than orthodox) it is more likely to be in south part of Balkans than in Bosnia which is very far from Constantinople.

Btw, I think in 1000 also Scots should be pagans. Or not?

[Sir Nikephorion]

I don´t know exactly if there was already a discussion ´bout this topic but will there be some special units, like clerics or something like that, which you can send to your realms to change the religion (I mean units that must be built) or can that be done without units just by building some churches or cathedrals or in a third way, like spending money or something like that... (Sorry for my english but I think right now i´m just too tired, it´s a bit early too get up for students... :) )

[Elewyn]

Sorry for my english but I think right now i´m just too tired, it´s a bit early too get up for students... :) :D :cheers:

yes, Clerics are tis unit as far as I know. One of their main functions announced is to convert your realms' reigion to your kingom main religion (if it's diferent you have some minus points)

[Sir Nikephorion]

Thanx a lot, Elewyn!

So it´s almost like in EU II. For that it would be good to know how long it would take to convert the people and if the cleric-unit can be attacked (for example by rebels or enemies) and if you can use the unit again after it has done its job or if it will just vanish...

[Elewyn]

A cleric is one of knights' possible occupation (alongside with marshall, spy, trader and governor).

And it is very interesting question IF and HOW can a cleric or trader be killed. In case of spy it's simple: when recognized as spy, he has 2 options, work in services of your enemy who recognized him, or die:)

[Khan Krum]

Finellach, lad, Macedonians claim this one as well as the invention of cyrilic alphabet, :p I don't want to start an issue here on political matters, but it's wrong ;) For instance, the alphabet was created for the usage of the Moravians, but they gave up the idea because at that time their kingdom was falling apart, so it got accepted in our state. Now Maces claim it to be some sort of local dialect or some, but it was influenced by Greek alphabet and it's dull to insist that the whole country (Bulgaria) would speak in Macedonian which was only a smart part of our land back then.
And on the Bogomilk issue - since we brought Christianity to these pagan lands as an official religion it was chiefly our priests serving there to start the heresy :)

[4zzY]

Well on the Bogomil topic...
Those guys were a very nasty (my oppinion) dualistic herecy
they were influenced by the old Paulikians (not s**** how it is in English)
tehir phylosophy was close to the protestant movement
which ossured much later in central and western Europe
Predestination, dualism, animosity to the traditional Church, etc...
The difference was that they were a little bit anarchistic (:silly:)
and preached unobedience to both the clerical and civil institutions.
Thats why they were hated wherever they went (=> they were cool ;))
After Bulgaria was conquered by the Byzantines in the 11th century
they seeked refuge in western countries.
That's why we now have such beautiful word as "bugger" in English
its origin is traced to the root "bulg" (from Bulgarian)
and also there was a similar word in French and Spanish
but i can't remember them now sorry
I'm serious, i've read all this in an ethimological dictionary
And as far as i know it (the Bogomilism) was the major religion
in some parts of the Bolkans up until the coming of the Turks
south Dalmatia, Bosna, Herzegovina, and parts of Montenegro as far as i remember

/edit
in french - bougre
in spanish - bujaran

[d'Honaire]

Just as Karl Marx said "religion is the opiate of the masses", will this have an effect on the peasants in your region as well, other than rebellions, etc... Will one unit that has a high religion value play a factor in anothre unit's morale just because of their religion, i.e. a Crusade in Muslim lands?

[Teutonic_Knight]

Pagans could have a "green peace attack" considering those who were not Pagan were all about chopping down trees to make cities, castles and outposts. That could be something that might enrage them considering they believed in things other than a single deity, druids are what come to mind when I think of Pagans.

As far as Orthodox I think that while they are Orthodox they were still Christian, so could they not fall under a crusade as well? Make it so the only way to invoke an Orthodox Crusade would be if another religion such as Pagan or Muslim was transgressing another Orthodox based country.

[Bagpipe]

Orthodox churche didn't invoke Crusades.
Also, Catholic and Orthodox didn't associate to each other, they where "neutral". And very different.

[Finellach]

Well one must understand what Crusades were.

Byznatine was the center of the Orthodox church and they fought with the muslims for centuries in their south and east borders as well as with pagans to the northeast. They did not need 'crusades'!

Crusades were created later after the struggle of power withing Byzantine Empire which weakened the empire and so they asked the Pope to help them who then called for Christians to fight the pagans and heretic muslims.
Later Pope's saw this as a chance to eradicate the Orthodox church and remove Byzantine Emeperor who was esentially a competition to the Pope itself.

Thus Orthodox do not do Crusades. Only Catholics. :D

[Gorgoroth]

google.com :D
If you dont know someting historic related, just do a search. :cool:

[Siena]

Originally posted by Vytis
In 1251 pope Inocentus No4 acknowledged that Lithuania is a christian country after christening of grand prince (and future king) Mindaugas. Theoretically that could be christening of Lithuania No1. However, practically people (and probably the king himself) stayed pagan.
In 1387 christening of Lithuania by Jogaila (Jagiello).
In 1416-21 christening of Samogitia by Vytautas.


Right - officially Lithuania became Christian in 1387, but even after 1410 - Teutonic Order was calling Lithuanians pagans. And practically - they were right.

[Elewyn]

Originally posted by Finellach
Well one must understand what Crusades were.

Byznatine was the center of the Orthodox church and they fought with the muslims for centuries in their south and east borders as well as with pagans to the northeast. They did not need 'crusades'!

Thus Orthodox do not do Crusades. Only Catholics. :D :go: perfectly said.

I'm really curious what features will orthodox religion offer in KoH :angel:

[Henrik]

Maybe they just sit at wait while the catholics and moslems kill eachother and when they have weaken eachother then the Orthodox move in for the kill and take over all of Europe - that's a good strategy IMO

[Vytis]

Originally posted by Henrik
Maybe they just sit at wait while the catholics and moslems kill eachother and when they have weaken eachother then the Orthodox move in for the kill and take over all of Europe - that's a good strategy IMO
Yeah, seems like a good strategy.
And pagans will come next :)

[Drake Maethor]

Only that it didn't work. Both for Pagans and Orthodox. :rolleyes:

[Pope]

yeah, good strategy. They will wait, those heretic bastards, and after we, with God's help, defeat all those non-believers, we'll deal with those heretics and pagans :dwink:

yes, Byzantian heretics didn't use crusades. They were not good enough christians to call crusades and support them:angel:

[4zzY]

it doesnt matter here that im ortodox
and dont whant to speculate with it
because religious quarrels are meaningless :rolleyes:

but please dont call orthodox heretics
at the time when some "great" european powers
spoke only with their horses and thought that writing was some sort of magic
those "heretics" did have something called "culture"
which some people still thing is a strange and unappropriate word

ps

"Who controls the present, controlls the past.
Who controlls the past controlls the future"

George Orwell, 1984