More on units (another rant)...

[Vytis]

..."Dissagree with pretty much everything except..." soooo negative sentence ...
I wasn't trying to be mean :) I simply stated my opinion. Of course, I could've written a few paragraphs examining those suggestions point by point ... but I'm too lazy for that :)


do you have any better idea of eastern european infantry unit?

Vikings, normans and varangians are not eastern european units. They're northerners! "Made in Scandinavia" :)



I'm sure they are not the same! Normans are something quite diferent from Vikings and they are not so close to Varangians

How sure are you? Take a look at russian chronicles (http://www.dur.ac.uk/~dml0www/vikings.html) or do some research on 'norse', 'vikings' and 'normans'.

[Teutonic_Knight]

Just a question, why would you want to add the Teutonic units to the Bohemian, Austrian and *gulp* Flanders and Swiss areas? Is this a "balance" issue or do you think they should be there historically?

[Finellach]

Originally posted by Teutonic_Knight
Just a question, why would you want to add the Teutonic units to the Bohemian, Austrian and *gulp* Flanders and Swiss areas? Is this a "balance" issue or do you think they should be there historically?

Regarding Flanders, Holland and Bohemia is both actually. I am not sure about Austria, but since Austria is actually German realm/province we can except they will be there anyway. Swiss also.

So the answer is both.

[Teutonic_Knight]

If it's historically accurate than very few areas outside of North-East Germany and the Baltic region will actually have access to Teutonic units. Austria, Switzerland and Flanders will be excluded, Bohemia maybe, but very very unlikely.

[Elewyn]

in Bohemia we had Teutonic order, but as I said before, main order in Bohemia were Hospitaliers. Teutonics played big role in Moravia where they owned many estates until 1945. After leaving Baltic lands residence of their grandmaster was mainly in Austria and Moravia. Regarding Switzerland, I have no information about Teutonics there and it's very probably they never had any influence-Swiss was confederation of cantons, not feudal areas, and Teutonics were recruited from feudal nobility.
I also doubt about their existence in Flandres(more french land those times), but they had separate province in Netherlands-Holland, Friesland, Zeeland, Utrecht etc.

So IMO they should be possible in Austria, Holland, all other german provinces (except most wetern ones where it seems to be a place ofr Templars what's right), not in Switzerland!, not in Bohemia, but yes in Moravia! I'm also not sure about their availability in Poland. Silesia is very similar case to Moravia and many Germans colonisated it, I'm not sure about other Polish provinces

Sorry Vytis, I pulled back all my posts as answer to your. I won't tell anything to it. I misunderstood it maybe when reading it first time and it influenced all other impressions. So I won't tell anything to it.

I won't give you any links, I won't rewrite articles from books I know where is diference between Normans and Vikings very clear. I only will tell you that they are diferent from Vikings and Slavs deserve more than one unit.

[Teutonic_Knight]

Ok, I thought you were talking about holdings and not the actual empire. The Teutonic order also had estates in the Antioch, Acre and Jerusalem and most of the areas that Crusaders traveled.

IMO, I don't think that one should be able to recruit from areas where they had holdings outside their empire as those troops were imported and the indigenous peoples, in most cases, were not used. Using that logic then Southern Spain and all the way up to Venice will be able to recruit Janissaries.


You and I both know that the Empire of the TO failed to exist after 1525 there was a Teutonic Order but it was now an organization and really not an "empire."

[Khan Krum]

Now a serious amount of time has passed since I read some history on knight orders, so may be I miss some major facts here.
I don't know about the Teutonic Order, but the Templars got incredibly rich lending money at a high interest rate, and are believed to be wealthy enough to create an empire on their own and these reaches of theirs lead to their extinction actually. So this could be a challange, but may be it's just me in the past few days asking too much from the devs :o

[Elewyn]

oh yes, I know. I followed this logic. their holdings and estetes must have been granted to the Order by somebody. In most cases in Motravia and Bohemia the "donators" were those who became members of the Order.

That's true that not all of "provincial knights" fought in Baltic lands, but in other hand many of them went there and fought there. Origuinally Teutonics were german knights in Acre. Their recruit base was not in Baltics but in Germany. Only after big german colonisation of Baltics they can relay on some local Germans, but there still was many Teutonics from German states, Silesia, Netherlands, Bohemia, Moravia and Austria.
So I think realms of Teutonics should be Livonia, Kurland, Prussia, Pommerania, Brandenburg, Saxony, Franconia, Holland, Bavaria, Moravia, Austria, Silesia and maybe Great Poland(around Poznan)

I hope you understand this logic better. btw, Janissaries were not recruited from Beduins, nor Spain muslims. I also never said janissary should not be available in the Balkans. I only want to protect Turkish enemies to have janissary available. It would look strange: janissaries of Byzantium(Bulgaria, Serbia, Croatia) fighting against Ottoman janissaries.
the same like Teutonics in services of Lithuania

[Teutonic_Knight]

Elwyn, I understand what you are saying, but because people came from regions to join the Knights or might have been recruited from that area is far different than the Empire actually being there.

LOL, I know you didn't say that about the Janissaries Elewyn you are smarter than that...I was just using an example of "logic" implied.

I agree with some of your states, I believe they should come from Kurland, which would contain Memel, Estonia, Pommerland, Gnask, livland, the original Prussian land and depending upon the size of Brandenburg some of the North Eastern areas of it.

[Elewyn]

I didn't mean area of Teutonic order as nation. It should be only in Livonia, Kurland, Prussia, maybe also Estonia. I meant regions where Teutonics as unit should come from. And those should be IMO those from which they really used to come.

Remember that Germans in Baltics are not original, they were provided there by Teutonic. First came German Knight (Teutonic knight) from nowadays Germany/Austria/Czechia/Holland/Silesia(I prefer it from whole Poland), then when the Order conquered land (with very significant help of especially Bohemian kings and Polish nobles) some settlers came there. So Teutonics should be available in all german areas+Baltics and their Empire should be in Baltics. It's something very diferent

[Finellach]

Well somewhere around 1100 A.D. Switzerland was still just a duchy and vassal state to HRE, the same with Austria, Flanders and Holland. If the descriptions says TC will be available in Germany(meaning German lands) then IMO that means all their vassal states, along with the areas TO later held as indpendant "state". In north Poland and Baltics they were basiclly one powerful organization(army) with a country not the other way around.

Also as I said I wouldn't like it one bit if Janissaries are available in (God forbid) Croatia let alone Bosnia.

[Siena]

Originally posted by Elewyn
I didn't mean area of Teutonic order as nation. It should be only in Livonia, Kurland, Prussia, maybe also Samogitia and Estonia. I meant regions where Teutonics as unit should come from. And those should be IMO those from which they really used to come.

Remember that Germans in Baltics are not original, they were provided there by Teutonic. First came German Knight (Teutonic knight) from nowadays Germany/Austria/Czechia/Holland/Silesia(I prefer it from whole Poland), then when the Order conquered land (with very significant help of especially Bohemian kings and Polish nobles) some settlers came there. So Teutonics should be available in all german areas+Baltics and their Empire should be in Baltics. It's something very diferent

it does not make any sense to me. If Teutonic Knights will be available for all areas from where their people came from - that means the whole Europe.
They should be available only in Prussia and in Livonia - AND only after the period that they started to own that.

Also - Samogitia you can safely exclude from the list of the lands that Teutons can come from - I am pretty sure that not even one Teutonic Knight came from Samogitia. Samogitia was a pagan bastion - it would be difficult to imagine the scenario where a Samogitian would join Teutonic Order as a knight - and even more difficult to imagine if he was admitted.

Elewyn, where do you get the idea that I have anything against Finellach?

[Elewyn]

teutonic order was not Universal christian order, but German christian order. Something quite different. If Teutonic order should have relied only on knights from Livonia and Prussia, it would never become so strong. It was supplied from Germany, many Teutonic knigts were originally from Brandenburg, Saxony, Moravia, Silesia, and other parts of HRE where Germans lived.They should be available only in Prussia and in Livonia - AND only after the period that they started to own that. this will make them almost senseless unit-then they will be available only for ONE kingdm out of 100 in game and in only ONE of 3 entry points :scratch: I won't bother with unit you suggested if I am developer.

They should be not available for Lithuania, maybe for all non-latin-catholic nations + Poland and if two knights with Teutonics in their army will meet each other, Teutonics should fight to all units except Teutonics, the same with Templars

Also - Samogitia you can safely exclude from the list of the lands that Teutons can come from - I am pretty sure that not even one Teutonic Knight came from Samogitia. Samogitia was a pagan bastion - it would be difficult to imagine the scenario where a Samogitian would join Teutonic Order as a knight - and even more difficult to imagine if he was admitted.
Yes, mentioning Samogitia was bad step, I'm gonna remove it (it was owned by the Order for short time, that was the only reason I mentioned it)

[Jarlabanke]

Aren't all the units available in all timeperiods? Or have they changed that?

[Siena]

Originally posted by Elewyn
teutonic order was not Universal christian order, but German christian order. Something quite different. If Teutonic order should have relied only on knights from Livonia and Prussia, it would never become so strong. It was supplied from Germany, many Teutonic knigts were originally from Brandenburg, Saxony, Moravia, Silesia, and other parts of HRE where Germans lived.

I think Teutonic Order accepted knights of all nationalities- though I would have to check on that.
Anyway - it is a fact that knights from pretty much all European countries participated in raids on Lithuania, that were organised by Teutonic Order.

You are right, though - most of the members of Teutonic Order were German.

I mentioned that Teutonic Knight unit should only be available from Prussia and Livonia - simply for gameplay reason - so that Teutonic Knights would be available for Teutonic Order only.
This is because - Teutonic Knights are pretty much defined by their activities in the Baltics. Did they do anything substantial anywhere else? Besides the hospital(s) in Middle East...

If Teutonic Knights will be available in Germany - they will be used all over the place just like regular German unit.
Unless there is envisioned a system for Teutonic Knights from Germany to travel and join Teutonic Order.... But I doubt that...

[Finellach]

TO was quite active in Wallachia(today Romania) before they started their "crusade" in pagan nation's of Baltics.

[Elewyn]

@Siena. This is only a game!

If it was not changed yet, all units are available in all time periods of KoH, so...

Vikings will be possible for kings of Sweden, Denmark and Norway also in 1350 what is too late for them.

Templars will be in France in both 1000 and 1350, however the Order lasted only from 1119(I'm not sure of exact date) to 1307. May I continue?

Teutonic knights will be available in Germany and Baltics also in 1000 and 1200 (maybe not in Baltics, if they are pagan). It cannot be perfectly accurate for 100%

[Siena]

Originally posted by Elewyn
@Siena. This is only a game!

If it was not changed yet, all units are available in all time periods of KoH, so...

Vikings will be possible for kings of Sweden, Denmark and Norway also in 1350 what is too late for them.

Templars will be in France in both 1000 and 1350, however the Order lasted only from 1119(I'm not sure of exact date) to 1307. May I continue?

Teutonic knights will be available in Germany and Baltics also in 1000 and 1200 (maybe not in Baltics, if they are pagan). It cannot be perfectly accurate for 100%

:)
Elewyn,

I realise, that it is a game. That was what I said in my post.
I was not talking about 100% accuracy either. That is impossible, of course.

However - I am sure you will agree - that some reasonable logical accuracy really would not hurt any history based game.

[Elewyn]

Originally posted by Siena
I realise, that it is a game. That was what I said in my post.
I was not talking about 100% accuracy either. That is impossible, of course.Yea, you suggested it only for 98% :)

However - I am sure you will agree - that some reasonable logical accuracy really would not hurt any history based game. I agree, of course, but not in this point as you suggested it. It's only a question of view. To me it's logical if Teutonics won't be available for Lithuania, Poland, non-catholic nations, but ilogical if they won't be available in german realms for catholic kingdoms, because many Teutonics (most of them) originally came from Germany or were Germans(sure they were some Bohemians of Czech origin, Hungarians, Dutch etc., but they were minority). I don't give you numbers, but I am sure that before 1300 TO was absolutely unable to reinforce its forces from Livonia and Prussia only.

And also since the system of units in KoH is as it is (and I like it mostly), it's ridiculous to have one unit only for one kingdom

[Siena]

Originally posted by Elewyn
Yea, you suggested it only for 98% :)

I agree, of course, but not in this point as you suggested it. It's only a question of view. To me it's logical if Teutonics won't be available for Lithuania, Poland, non-catholic nations, but ilogical if they won't be available in german realms for catholic kingdoms, because many Teutonics (most of them) originally came from Germany or were Germans(sure they were some Bohemians of Czech origin, Hungarians, Dutch etc., but they were minority). I don't give you numbers, but I am sure that before 1300 TO was absolutely unable to reinforce its forces from Livonia and Prussia only.

Teutonic Order mostly got its members from Germany and some probably from Western Europe. However, the voluinteer crusaders were coming to help them from all over the Europe.

Prussians and Livonians - in other words - the local Balts - were not the members of Teutonic Order. They were supporting forces, that To used to fight Lithuanians. This is of course - only after Teutonic Order conquered Prussians and Livonians.

My point is this - it DOES NOT MATTER from where members of Teutonic Order originaly came from. They only became functioning members of Teutonic Order AFTER they got in Prussia and Livonia. By that I mean - that Teutonic Knights were not important as military force anywhere in Europe. They only became important as military force in Livonia and Prussia.


Originally posted by Elewyn

And also since the system of units in KoH is as it is (and I like it mostly), it's ridiculous to have one unit only for one kingdom

Will Longbowmen be available for more than one kingdom?
Anyway - Longbowmen are not even a good comparison - since they were not a military-religious Order.