More on units (another rant)...

[Gorgoroth]

Yes Siautas is right, however I dont find it that important, that is all.
This is game, nothing more, do not forget about that. :angel:

[Finellach]

Nice map Elewyn. :go:

I think that may be the reason why the Baltics doesn't have any "special" unit, although as many said it would be nice to have a distinct Lithuanian/Belorus unit since they were a major power in that area with distinct fighting style and culture.

It's not so important if you look at the big picutre. I could complain that the area of Hungary/Croatia/Bosnia/Serbia/Montenegro doesn't have a special unit as well although this area was quite famous by it's light-medium cavalry.

Anyway...my point is that we cannot judge it now since we still don't have the game and so we don't know were will which unit going to be available excatly.

[Gorgoroth]

Croatia/Bosnia/Serbia/Montenegro were minor states.
Lithuania was lot more powerful.
Btw I have no idea that what famous cavalry are you talking about at all. :rolleyes:
Perhaps you should enlighten us with some valid details. :cool:

I understand the points of the posters anyways. It would be really nice to have special units for all nations, however as I said I dont feel it that important. I think the only reason why some of you are arguing is the little nationalism inside you! :D :cheers:
It is a good thing, but this is a game. ;)

[Finellach]

Originally posted by Gorgoroth
Croatia/Bosnia/Serbia/Montenegro were minor states.
Lithuania was lot more powerful.
Btw I have no idea that what famous cavalry are you talking about at all. :rolleyes:
Perhaps you should enlighten us with some valid details. :cool:

Well Serbia and Montenegro didn't had famous cavalry. I added them to show that a huge space also doesn't have a special unit. I could've easily include Hungary as well since I am not sure it will have any special unit as well.

The famous cavalry I am talking about is the same as the Croatian cavalry that had numerous successes against the Turks later in 16th century. Though you could say that this was Hungarian cavalry as much as Croatian since Croatia and Hungary were in personal union and shared the army in that period.

Also I woulnd't agree that Croatia, Bosnia and Serbia were minor states. In 10th and 11th century Croatia was one of the most evolved kingdoms and had a powerful army. Croats even defeated the mighty Bulgarian Emperor Simeon. The later we have Bosnia which held huge parts of Bosnia and Serbia under the Kotromanic dynasty. And after that Serbia held huge parts of Balkans and in the region and was a big empire that spaned from Bosnia down to the half of Greece.

[Gorgoroth]

I see, but that cavalry was used in the 16th-17th century if I am correct, thus that cavalry wouldnt fit very well in the game. ;)

Yup I know the history of the Balkans, so you dont need to tell me about those ages.
Hmmmm I meant that they werent AS powerful, like some others and they werent that important imho.
Still you had valid points in your post. :cool:

[Finellach]

Well that cavalry is more less based on the legacy of old Croatian and as well Hungarian cavalry traditions which is on both sides very famous. The early Magyars as well as early Croats were both great horsemen. ;)

[Siautas]

Originally posted by Elewyn
I think Siautas is right. Every region deserve having at least one local unique unit.

I tried a little and now I can show you my aproximate guess of number of General units in realms. I prefered showing general units from showing "local" or "unique-local" units, because f.e feudal knights are not local neither really unique unit since they cover almost half of Europe, but they also are not general, because they are still specific unit.

General units of this map are not Swordsmen or Peasants who are available everywhere, so you can add everywhere 2 more units. They are:
Men-at-Arms, Spearmen, Archers and Bowmen, Horse archers, and Axemen.

Units like crusader units or Heavy swordsmen/heavy archers I didn't know where to place.

The darker the area is, the less general (non-unique) units is there. In Lithuania there is one non-general and they are Boyars (IMO they fit there more than Feudal cavalry, Teutonics are not available there, I think almost everybody now understand why). It can be also interpreted, where 1 general unit is, 5 unique are, where 5general, 1 unique. As I said Lithuania has the only unique unit "borrowed from Russia" so it is the only region without any unique unit. I think it deserve some. That's my opinion :)

The map is here (http://elvain.album.cz/map-suggestions/1185507)

wauuuuu...man I'm really impressed how much time and new ideas u give to this game. U are really worth to get "platinum KOH CD".
:cheers:

If your research is correct and Lithuania will have Boyars then this will be offence to all Balts :angry: . Yes Russian/Slavic units were fighting in Lithuanian army but just like vassals or ally. I can't imagine making Boyars, Feudal cavalry, Teutonic Champions or Slavonic units in Lithuania or Samogitia. It will totally destroy all the fun for me.

Its the same like to play for Arabic nations with Crusader Cavalry... :mad:

Devs and all this forum friends, can u understand please: Balts are not Slavic/Slavonic nation... We are Balts and please respect us and our history like we respect others nations.

[Elewyn]

Originally posted by Gorgoroth
I understand the points of the posters anyways. It would be really nice to have special units for all nations, however as I said I dont feel it that important. I think the only reason why some of you are arguing is the little nationalism inside you! :D :cheers:
It is a good thing, but this is a game. ;) Imagine you play a game where your nation is playable. In history your nation had 2 major enemies.
And in that game the only units you can have are special units of those your major enemies. That's why Lithuanians don't want neither Russian nor "German"/Teutonic unique unit for Lithuania and Samogitia.

But you're right, KoH is only a game. But it seems to be really great game and I don't think that adding unique cavalry for Balts instead of some other unit (which would be very similar to some other) should be such a problem.

But who knows, maybe Pronoias won't be the same like Cataphracts, maybe they won't be in Byzantium which already has one unique cavalry unit. Then I only can't imagine where they will be...

[Siautas]

Originally posted by Finellach
Nice map Elewyn. :go:

I think that may be the reason why the Baltics doesn't have any "special" unit, although as many said it would be nice to have a distinct Lithuanian/Belorus unit since they were a major power in that area with distinct fighting style and culture.


"Lithuanian/Belarus":...:eek: :eek: :eek: :) Please... Lithuanians are Balts, and there were no State like "Belarus" in that time... In the territory of present Republic of Belarus lived some Baltic and Slavonic tribes...State of Belarus was formed only in Last century...

I don't want to start another topic... about What territories must be called like ethnic Balts territories...:cheers:

peace

[Gorgoroth]

Originally posted by Elewyn

But you're right, KoH is only a game. But it seems to be really great game and I don't think that adding unique cavalry for Balts instead of some other unit (which would be very similar to some other) should be such a problem.


Hmmm this is true as well...:scratch:

[Siautas]

Originally posted by Drake Maethor
Is there some web page about the Baltic warriors?
For example one that talks about that Baltic Cavalry you are proposing... I would like to read and learn about them.

we didcused this topic in this forum before...there are are some links http://forum.sunflowers.de/showthread.php?s=&threadid=709

could somebody (Siena, Bagpipe, Heretic...) give some more links to our friend...

ok I hope others supporters of Balts cavalery/Balts unit will join us. We must to give the last fight. Yes it's just the game, but all life is just the game. In every game I give all myself. And KOH is the game about history of my ancestry’s. I hope that my son will play this game some time. And I will not find any answer if he asks me: "why playing for Lithuania I need play with Slavonic/western European units"? I want to be sure I have done all that avoid such a question.

We need to give last fight... all are welcome to join the flag of “Baltic Cavalry” rider. I should do it even it could be my last post....

And finally MY FRIENDS: REALLY TNANK YOU ALL FOR YOUR GREAT SUPORT. IF YOU WILL BE IN LITHUANIA SIAUTASLT@YAHOO.COM :cheers: FOR YOU - PLEASURE FOR ME.

Kas bus tas bus bet Zemaitis neprazus....

[Finellach]

Originally posted by Siautas
"Lithuanian/Belarus":...:eek: :eek: :eek: :) Please... Lithuanians are Balts, and there were no State like "Belarus" in that time... In the territory of present Republic of Belarus lived some Baltic and Slavonic tribes...State of Belarus was formed only in Last century...

I don't want to start another topic... about What territories must be called like ethnic Balts territories...:cheers:

peace

Belarus was vital part of Grand Duchy of Lithuania and the ancestors of todays Belorussians also had important role in it. No one said there was an entity known as Belarus nor that Lithuanians are Balts. ;)

[Siautas]

Originally posted by Finellach
Belarus was vital part of Grand Duchy of Lithuania and the ancestors of todays Belorussians also had important role in it. .......Lithuanians are Balts. ;)

Yes right.... but Lithuanians are Balts;)

[Finellach]

Really? I was sure they are Marsians... :p

[Siena]

Originally posted by Drake Maethor
Is there some web page about the Baltic warriors?
For example one that talks about that Baltic Cavalry you are proposing... I would like to read and learn about them.

unfortunately - that is mostly in books, and even more unfortunately - it is mostly in lithuanian books.
Try "Nothern Crusades" by Eric Christiansen - that costs about $10 as far as I remember. There is a little bit there.

On the web the best you can find is Lithaunian history, like here:
http://www.lithuania.lt/IMI/i_en.jsp?nr=istorija_04

Or some historic articles, like this:
http://viduramziu.lietuvos.net/en/state.htm

A little bit about society:
http://viduramziu.lietuvos.net/socium/index-en.htm

Little bit about horses and crossbows. I believe Vytis already posted this before:
http://www.deremilitari.org/RESOURCES/ARTICLES/ekdahl.htm

from it:
"During the conquest of Prussia, the Knights became familiar with a small horse indigenous to that region, the so-called Sweik (Schweike).19 This designation probably derives from a Baltic word meaning 'healthy' or 'strong'.20 These animals had a stocky, muscular build and generally measured at the withers not much more than ten hands.21 In a letter of 1427 the grand marshal called them 'little shaggy horses' ('cleyne gerugete pherde').22 Although there is no reliable information concerning their colour, presumably they were light brown, fawn or grey and had a partial black dorsal stripe. Interestingly, this old breed of horse is still reared on stud farms in Lithuania where they are known as Zemaitukai.23 The Sweiks were swift, tenacious and hardy. They served the native Prussians and other peoples of the Baltic as saddle- and workhorses as well as war-horses. In the last case, however, it was only possible for the rider to be lightly armed with 'the native Prussian weapons' of spear, shield (scutum Prutenicum), plate armour (Brünne) and the Prussian helmet (a specific variety of the conical helmet).24"

and


" In the course of the fourteenth century the 'non-Christians' became increasingly opponents which the Teutonic Order had to take seriously, as the knightly culture of western and central Europe was no longer unknown to them. It is not without reason that in an anonymous address composed in 1415 for the Council of Constance (presumably, however, not delivered) the Order complained that 'the non-believers of whom one is at present speaking now appear powerful everywhere, with shining armour, with warhorses [geroesse] and other military equipment'.79 The author of this document knew what he was talking about, as five years previously the Order had suffered a devastating defeat at Tannenberg (in Polish known as Grunwald and in Lithuanian as Zalgiris) on 15 July 1410, by a joint Polish and Lithuanian army.80 The turning point in the battle was achieved by the Lithuanians, admittedly not through the use of heavy cavalry, but by the old tactic of simulated retreat. This was not known to the mercenaries and crusaders of the Teutonic Order, who in an undisciplined way left their battle formations to take up the pursuit, thereby exposing their flank so that strong Polish fighting units could penetrate the Order's army from the side.81"

so "not through the use of heavy cavalry" must mean - the use of native cavalry.

[Siena]

Originally posted by Finellach
Belarus was vital part of Grand Duchy of Lithuania and the ancestors of todays Belorussians also had important role in it.

that's true
http://viduramziu.lietuvos.net/etno/index-en.htm

[Siena]

Originally posted by Elewyn
Imagine you play a game where your nation is playable. In history your nation had 2 major enemies.
And in that game the only units you can have are special units of those your major enemies. That's why Lithuanians don't want neither Russian nor "German"/Teutonic unique unit for Lithuania and Samogitia.


:cheers:
I could not express it better :)

I think Balt unit would also be useful for early Prussia and Livonia. Would make fighting pagans more interesting.

[Vytis]

Or fighting christians when playing pagans :)

[d'Honaire]

As far as the Templars go, they were mainly a French order, but they had forts in other areas of Europe and the Middle East,etc... Why not make them a French specific unit? Also, why are the other orders not represented, The Knights Hospitallier, The Knights of Santiago, etc...:cheers:

[Henrik]

Originally posted by d'Honaire
Also, why are the other orders not represented, The Knights Hospitallier, The Knights of Santiago, etc...:cheers:

Maybe they wanna save these units untill KoH2 ! - IMO this would make good sense ;)