View Full Version : More on units (another rant)...
Pages :
1
2
[
3]
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
Finellach
10-05-2004, 18:24
Originally posted by Siena
Will Longbowmen be available for more than one kingdom?
Anyway - Longbowmen are not even a good comparison - since they were not a military-religious Order.
Actually yes they will. In England and Ireland. ;)
They should be also available in Wales...I don't know why they're not.
Kuno of Gersenau
10-05-2004, 18:43
Maybe they think that England and Wales is the same? ;)
But I think they must be available in Wales, because they come from there, don't they?
@Siena, maybe you mix together terms kingdom and region. Region is Baltics, better Livonia, Prussia, Lithuania etc. kingdom is in KoH Teutonic order. If you as king of France conquere some realm where lonbowmen are available, he can recruit them, not only England. When Bohemia gets Prussia, it should have TK available. IMO it should have them available also in Moravia, Brandenburg, Silesia, Pomerania etc(if ruling it)
In Moravia f.e. they represented military power, members of TO.
By your logic. Longbowmen were recruited from England and Wales, but used as representative military power in Wales(by Welsh against the English) and in France. Following your logic, they should be available in Wales and France?
Originally posted by Elewyn
@Siena, maybe you mix together terms kingdom and region. Region is Baltics, better Livonia, Prussia, Lithuania etc. kingdom is in KoH Teutonic order. If you as king of France conquere some realm where lonbowmen are available, he can recruit them, not only England. When Bohemia gets Prussia, it should have TK available. IMO it should have them available also in Moravia, Brandenburg, Silesia, Pomerania etc(if ruling it)
In Moravia f.e. they represented military power, members of TO.
By your logic. Longbowmen were recruited from England and Wales, but used as representative military power in Wales(by Welsh against the English) and in France. Following your logic, they should be available in Wales and France?
eh?
where did you get that logic of mine?
See, in my opinion Teutonic Knights are a bit of exception. You would not want Lithuanians to conquer Prussia and start using Teutonic Knights, would you?
Or Turks to take over Silezia, and have Teutonic Knights?
Even Poland, if they take over Silezia?Or Denmark take over Saxony? Can they use Teutonic Knights?
I would not want them to.
Because Teutonic Knights are not just a regionaly recruited unit. They are a religious-fanatical unit. They are inseparable from Teutonic Order.
Longbowman - is a regional unit, recruited in Wales. So it would make sense that whoever conquers Wales - can use them. Although I would not want the king of France to get them at the same price as king of England, especially, if King of France is in war with England.
Still - as I said - Longbowman is not a good comparison with Teutonic Knight. There was never a "Longbowmen Order" ;)
Angryminer
10-05-2004, 20:00
You would not want Lithuanians to conquer Prussia and start using Teutonic Knights, would you?
Or Turks to take over Silezia, and have Teutonic Knights?
Even Poland, if they take over Silezia?Or Denmark take over Saxony? Can they use Teutonic Knights?
I would not want them to.I don't have a problem with that. Why shouldn't a prussian soldier get the same training as a soldier of the Teutonic Order from a prussian swordsmaster just because the polish banner is flying above their heads?
Angryminer
Originally posted by Angryminer
I don't have a problem with that. Why shouldn't a prussian soldier get the same training as a soldier of the Teutonic Order from a prussian swordsmaster just because the polish banner is flying above their heads?
Angryminer
because prussian soldier is not a Teutonic Knight.
Prussian soldier - is a Balt. Local inhabitant.
Or - later - it could be a German colonist.
Teutonic Knight is a monk-knight belonging to Teutonic Order.
It would create an absurd situation - if Lithuanians could conquer Livonia and start fielding Teutonic Knights against Teutonic Order...
I have an idea:
can every unit be assigned one home country - fighting for which it gets its maximum statistics?
For example - highlanders would fight much better for Scotland than for other country....
Originally posted by Siena
You would not want Lithuanians to conquer Prussia and start using Teutonic Knights, would you?
Or Turks to take over Silezia, and have Teutonic Knights?
Even Poland, if they take over Silezia?Or Denmark take over Saxony? Can they use Teutonic Knights?
I would not want them to.
Because Teutonic Knights are not just a regionaly recruited unit. They are a religious-fanatical unit. They are inseparable from Teutonic Order. Have you red my previous posts? I won't repeat myself. I once said catholic kingdoms except Poland should be the only to recruit Teutonic knights.
I maybe misunderstood you a little, the same with you.
Teutonics for:
Teutonic order-Yes
Lithuiania-NO!!!!!
Turks-"No"
Denmark-Yes
Poland-Not, but here I see little diference because Teutonic order was invited by poland, so not so straight "No"
Byzantium-no, untill it is orthodox
Muscovy-no
Castille-yes
England-yes
Fatimids-no
etc.
I understand you, but imagine you creat a game. Will you bother with creating one special unit which will be available only for one fraction out of more than 100? Neither would I.
Originally posted by Elewyn
I understand you, but imagine you creat a game. Will you bother with creating one special unit which will be available only for one fraction out of more than 100? Neither would I.
I would.
I would make it as close to history as I could.
One unique unit - for every unique region. Also, where unique unit is bound to faction - like Teutonic Knights to Teutonic Order or Janisaries to Turks - I would make it so.
Similar system was in Medieval Total War. Some units were bound to factions, some to regions and some to religion.
I would make less units bound to factions and more to regions, but some of them have to be bound to factions. Teutonic Knight is the best example here.
I understand. But we have only little more than 30 units which are unique-not the same like in MTW(as I heard-looking different but except f.e. one little diference the same) but really different, and I have doferent opinion to this. It would be little pity however I really understand your argument and would agree with you if KoH has little more units.
You know without TK for more than one kingdom very large region of Germany will be without any special unit! It would be very unfair(especially if Baltics will get own cavalry-I know-opponents, but two really unique units for region of not more than 6realms, but Germany with over 8realms without any unique unit? little unfaiir IMO :(
What do you think about availability to TK for not all catholic, but only for German kingdoms by nationality? probably won't agree, do you? but nice compromise, isn't it?
Actually, MTW had pretty good unit system.
I think that in every corner of Medieval Europe it is easy to find some unique unit. I cannot believe Germans did not have anything more special than Teutonic Knight.
I will admit - I did not go deep into German history - but whoever did - and has little imagination - I bet - could tell instantly the best fitting German unit.
No need for Germany to use Teutonic Order's knights as a unique unit.
I think teutonic knights should be available only for TO.
In case germans don't get special units, it's not a very big deal. They already have a big advantage - a large powerful country to start with.
Finellach
10-05-2004, 23:23
Well Germans already have bunch of special units. From Templars to Halbrediers.
Originally posted by Siena
I would.
I would make it as close to history as I could.
One unique unit - for every unique region. Also, where unique unit is bound to faction - like Teutonic Knights to Teutonic Order or Janisaries to Turks - I would make it so.
Similar system was in Medieval Total War. Some units were bound to factions, some to regions and some to religion.
I would make less units bound to factions and more to regions, but some of them have to be bound to factions. Teutonic Knight is the best example here.
agree:cheers:
And Elewyn, If Germany has no special unit it's not a reason why Lithuania can't have one.
I feel Baltic region naturally needs one specific unit because there are only few units you can produce in this region ant his is disbalance compare to Western, East or South Europe regions. Simply u can just produce the stronger army in Western or South Europe then in Central Europe or Baltic regions.
Be true if in the game are Highlanders units - not the most popular and prevailing unit in Europe (sorry fans) - so why other regions not less strong can't have his own at least one unit.
I call game creators stop thinking only about comertional success of the game in UK, France but try to be a little more democratic...:rolleyes:
Well and I really dreaming to see some screenshots of Baltic region. Even with the screenshots we fell what regions are the most important...
:(
local patriotism. Great lobby for two unique units for your region which really deserve it (I'm the last one who will say that Baltic region doesn't deserve it!), but if huge area of Germany has no really unique unit, nevermind, for you.
Keep some balance in your ideas too. Yes, Britain, in comparison to the rest of Europe has little too much unique units. But f.e. Spain has none, you want Germany to have none, central Europe has none(I mean non-Alpine central Europe, Swiss have 2, ofcourse, 2which belong more to Italy than to central Europe). There is one overal unit for all western and central Europe, yes, that's right, but that's all. I don't wanna cry here that I wanna unique bohemian hussite crosbowmen (diferent from ordinary Swiss crosbowmen-with big pavisse shield, using war wagons etc.) which represented the fear of Germans, Poles and Hungarians in 15th century, like Teutonics did in Baltics.
I wanna some ballance, so Teutonics also in Germany and reigons they came from.
If there is some french, he might shout here that feudal knights in essence came from France and they should be only there and nowhere else. It would be unfair for the rest of feudal Europe, where they fought for next 300 years, don't u think?
In case of Teutonic knights only for Teutonic order and in the name of keeping the game clear and historically absolutely correct, what the hell do Templars do there? They never fought for France. They only fought for Crusades. What the hell do Halberdiers in French services (when France ruling Flandre), if they were municipal army that so many times defeated proud French knights?
What the hell the Vikings do in later medieval Scandinavia, Feudal knights in times of Lotharingia and caliphate of Cordoba?
This is KoH, it has little diferent unit system than MTW, too less units are here to be available only for one nation, however it would be more right.
Originally posted by Vytis
In case germans don't get special units, it's not a very big deal. They already have a big advantage - a large powerful country to start with. So tell me why were you trying to push special Lithuanian cavalry to KoH when in late period you will very probably have the same advantage? ;) does that mean that all large and powerful kingdoms should have no special units?
Great:go: really great! I really didn't expected this way. "Give ME everything, my country deserve it!! Germany? Pah! it is large, that's enough!" ;):beek:
Originally posted by Elewyn
[B]local patriotism. Great lobby for two unique units for your region which really deserve it (I'm the last one who will say that Baltic region doesn't deserve it!), but if huge area of Germany has no really unique unit, nevermind, for you.
no. I just said that Lithuanian units going first for me and this is natural - "local patriotism":D
Germans are not my business but I never said that they don't deserve own special units;)
Originally posted by Elewyn
I don't wanna cry here that I wanna uniqhe bohemian hussite crosbowmen (diferent from ordinary Swiss crosbowmen) which represented the fear of Germans, Poles and Hungarians in 15th century, like Teutonics did in Baltics.
Nobody crying. Bohemian hussite, hm, why not? I wish Central Europe have one or two more special unit except Boyars.
I wanna some ballance too.
Originally posted by Elewyn So tell me why were you trying to push special Lithuanian cavalry to KoH when in late period you will very probably have the same advantage? ;) does that mean that all large and powerful kingdoms should have no special units?
Lithuania was large and powerful kingdom too...And I want to play this game with max satisfaction and with at least one local, traditional unit. I just support Siena’s idea about some third way (not 70 units) just basic + some from specific regions, then You will get Bohemian hussite or something like this.
:bday:
Germans are not my business but I never said that they don't deserve own special units;) If yes, so let Teutonics be in Germany, because they were German unit ;)
Nobody crying. Bohemian hussite, hm, why not? I wish Central Europe have one or two more special unit except Boyars.No, I don't wanna hussites because they are not enough wide used unit and won't be available for more than 2, maximum 3 realms. I think some unit for Bohemia and Poland together is better because we had something together and it would be senseless to ask for 2 units, one for Bohemia, one for poland. Bohemian 2 realms are too small to be region deserving unique unit, I'm trying to be as objective as possible. Also Lithuania itself is IMO too small to have unique unit, so let's have baltic cavalry instead of only Lithuanian-easier to make success...
Lithuania was large and powerful kingdom too...And I want to play this game with max satisfaction and with at least one local, traditional unit. I just support Siena’s idea about some third way (not 70 units) just basic + some from specific regions, then You will get Bohemian hussite or something like this.
:bday: You know, we can't want the devs to change now the system. They said 4-5units(I hope that the really great news they promissed is extension of that number:)) and none for Western Europe, that's why I defend right for Germany to have Teutonics.
I may say it is not my business, but what about objectivity? I try to keep some balance in my suggestions, maybe I should care only of my region, because others are not my bussiness and maybe the map would have been the same as it was in the beggining, because I would have cared only of Bohemia and shout for Bohemia as nation in KoH without any suggesting of improvements in whole Europe. Devs would have seen one shouting bohemian nationalistic or patriotic guy and wouldn't care about him. I don't wanna this. If I want something for myself, others deserve it too because they maybe had not enough luck to find this forum ;)
timurlenk
11-05-2004, 11:43
ive heard from reliable sources that one of the new units will be the "austrian battle jester", armed with two edged bells an longlute :silly:
so austria has its own special unit yippiehh!
Originally posted by Elewyn
I may say it is not my business, but what about objectivity? I try to keep some balance in my suggestions, maybe I should care only of my region, because others are not my bussiness and maybe the map would have been the same as it was in the beggining, because I would have cared only of Bohemia and shout for Bohemia as nation in KoH without any suggesting of improvements in whole Europe. Devs would have seen one shouting bohemian nationalistic or patriotic guy and wouldn't care about him. I don't wanna this. If I want something for myself, others deserve it too because they maybe had not enough luck to find this forum ;) [/B]
Yes u are just better like me. But I'm glad who I am too.
"Baltic cavalry" is not bad, but "Lithuanian cavalry" in the name of Grand Duchy of Lithuania. Now Balts are just Lithuanians and Latvians. But Latvians never had independent state in Medieval. No doubt "Lithuanian cavalry" souds better and it can represent 4 or 5 lands.
Originally posted by Elewyn
I may say it is not my business, but what about objectivity? I try to keep some balance in my suggestions, maybe I should care only of my region, because others are not my bussiness and maybe the map would have been the same as it was in the beggining, because I would have cared only of Bohemia and shout for Bohemia as nation in KoH without any suggesting of improvements in whole Europe. Devs would have seen one shouting bohemian nationalistic or patriotic guy and wouldn't care about him. I don't wanna this. If I want something for myself, others deserve it too because they maybe had not enough luck to find this forum ;)
Elewyn,
I am discussing Teutonic Knight right now - because we know that unit is in the game.
Lithuanian cavalry - or Baltic Cavalry (which a little bit too generic a name for me) - we don't even know if that unit is in the game. I wish that it was, but there is no indication from developers that it will be.
So no need to draw it in this discussion.
I am simply discussing what I know best. If I knew more about Bohemia or Germany - I would offer my ideas about that.
As it is - I know best about Lithuania and Teutonic Order.
I thought I was objective. I was talking about unique units for all unique regions of Europe.
Now, that ground rules seem to be - 4-5 units for the Eastern and Southern Europe and Asia and Africa.
I am not even sure that we have a power of vote in this....
I suspect that developers already decided what those units are.
So I am voicing my ideas without regard for "ground rules" - maybe for game expansion...
So tell me why were you trying to push special Lithuanian cavalry to KoH when in late period you will very probably have the same advantage? does that mean that all large and powerful kingdoms should have no special units?
I never tried to push any special Lith. units. Quite the opposite : had a big fight with Siautas when I didn't support the notion that lith. cavalry was special.
Also, I never said that all big countries should not have any special units.
If Germany gets some special units that's ok with me. Same with Lithuania or any other country. As long as those units are historically and logically justified.
vBulletin v3.5.4, Copyright ©2000-2007, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.