[en] Regions of medieval Europe

[Elvain]

Well, yes, once your state is as large as Byzantine empire (whole Balkans and whole Asia minor) you can't afford to have houndreds of small provinces.

PS: even byzantine provinces are as big as Bulgarian - in some parts of Byzantia, like almost everywhere except central Anatolia and central Balkans (you can check it with the map you provided to me.

And I think the reason of so large byzantine provinces is simple: those territorries were incorporated at once and IMO the government there was very though so they needed only one strong and loyal governor (strategos) to govern it instead of many.

and you govern yourself in a different way than a nation that had just been subordinated after very tough and long lasting war

[Traveller]

I'll send you another letter in Gmail tomorrow, Elvain. With those plans of ~40 Bulgarian strongholds I told you about and with a list of some more or less important cities...
Btw, can you read Cyrillic?

P.S. Also, when reading one pretty nice history book of Petar Mutafchiev (written around the middle of the last century), I come to the conclusion that Bulgaria was indeed much more divided, but we just don't have the precise data. This thought came to me when I read f.e. that when the Hungarians conquered once Northern Morava region, they conquered the territory of 5 Bulgarian bishoprics. And I think the whole Morava tema was a bit smaller than the other Bulgarian temas under the Byzantines. Anyway, I hope I'll have enough time tomorrow to expand more on this and other things!

[Elvain]

thanks a lot. Yes I can read cyrilic more or less...

[Elvain]

update:
http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/8093/auromeresizexe4.png

[Xuca]

I'm intersted, how did you divide the small Greek islands?

[Elvain]

I didn't think about the small islands. Those like Euboea, Lesbos or Rhodos are considered as separate entities on the map, those which are smaller will probably be either parts of themes or won't be part of any province at all

[Traveller]

Hey, Elvain. Was that city list of any help to you? Should I look for some more cities or something?

[Elvain]

I didn't use it yet. At the moment I'm trying to make northern Africa and finnish Persia and then I will move back to Europe...

but still thanks a lot, maybe even more once I will take a look at it :wink:
-----------------
btw, little update..

here's use of my map for Arabia Universalis EUII mod
actual version of the map can be seen here:
http://europauniversalis2.myfreeforum.org/sutra1023.php#1023

or if you want just the picture:
http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/4528/autt3.jpg

[Traveller]

One correction - Macedonia in the Middle Ages was not the same as the ancient or the modern region of Macedonia. In the Middle Ages tema Macedonia was the region around Adrianople. The Macedonia on your map could be renamed to Thessaloniki or something, but naming it Macedonia would be a historical inaccuracy...

[Elvain]

I leave the Balkans and Anatolia mostly to Basileios I. who's much better in byzantine history.

This map is made to fit era after 632 and later and I think that for this period, Macedonia still was mostly around Thesaloniki..
but as I said this is domain of Basileios I

[Traveller]

Well, I'm pretty sure that even in this period Macedonia had just "freshly" been "transferred" to the Adrianople vicinity. Of course, some people might have continued simply calling that region Macedonia, but the tema was in Adrianople's Thrace. I don't know who this Basileios I is, so maybe you could ask him about this...
Btw, if the period is for 632, could we eventually use this map (eventually) in a mod for M2:TW, whose first period starts exactly in 632? :rolleyes:

[Elvain]

well, you can join the discussion...

right now we discuss Bulgaria among other things, so you can help us..

http://europauniversalis2.myfreeforum.org/ftopic8.php

[catt]

Elvain: Could you please tell me the Title and the Author of the historical Atlas you mentioned? I've been wanting to buy one for ages, I saw a very good one recently at a bookstore but it was already gome when I decided to buy it... Mabye it's the same as I'm looking for? I only know that it was published rather recently.

[Elvain]

Hi, catt
I'd like to help but I don't know what historical atlas you mean?
I use quite many historical atlases

of Europe? of Islam?

[catt]

Dang.

Actually I'm just looking for a good one... And it should have been published rather recently. I'm mostly interested in one about Europe... Or the whole world (unless that would be lacking a lot of detail). Do you have any suggestions?

I was originally asking about the one you mentioned at the very beginning.

Do you study history?

[Elvain]

you probably mean this?
I have bought very nice historical atlas of Europe (in German) with many maps, if you wani I can scan some picture of Europe and send them via email to you, but I have to know from which centuries or years and which states?
so then ask Mirco, I can found the citations in some bookshop coz I know which atlas it is, but maybe Mirco can answer more quickly...

[Mircoslavux]

Dang.

Actually I'm just looking for a good one... And it should have been published rather recently. I'm mostly interested in one about Europe... Or the whole world (unless that would be lacking a lot of detail). Do you have any suggestions?

I was originally asking about the one you mentioned at the very beginning.

Do you study history?

hoi
It is this one: "Knaurs Historischer Weltatlas"

I bought it in Weltbild, by as I looked on the web "ist leider nicht verfügbar",
so you have to try via amazon or something like that,
there should be a nex re-print version...
good luck

[Elvain]

after short pause I made another update, map was extended to Sudan and Etiopia (historical Nubia and Axum)
http://img184.imageshack.us/img184/8275/nubiaresizesq0.png
http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/8382/auromex1jn6.gif

[Finellach]

I am not really active here anymore but I came upon this by accident and since I am already registered I would like to give few hints...if this is still active.

I will address Bosnia more specifically.

Your Bosnian provinces are wrong.

1. What you call Jajce is actually area of today modern city of Banja Luka. This region was in medieval times refered as 'Sana' by the tributary of River Una which flows through the region.
2. Your Bosnian province should be cut in two. The western part should be the mentioned Jajce province while the eastern part is the real medieval Bosnia or Rama province.

Here is a small skecth made on your map.
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-3/1157859/2.jpg

The light blue dot is actual city of Jajce, the white line shows how the province should be cut. Aproximately of course

Oh and in the end I would like to point out that if you are perhaps thinking about merging Rasugsa/Dubrovnik province with something else that you do not do so. If any small province should exist in this area it should be Ragusa as it was extremely important as for Croatian as for the regional history, culture and development.

[Elvain]

OMG! Finellach is here :eek:

Thanks for help.

Do you have any sources which would help me even more?
I'd like to back every province by at least one source...

PS: And you can be sure. There is no way I will merge Dubrovnik/Ragusa with any other province. It was very important entity in this region, and furthemore it was a separate state during some periods too