[en] Regions of medieval Europe

[Finellach]

Do you have any sources which would help me even more?
I'd like to back every province by at least one source...

I can post some maps if you will.
There are several ways to deal with this problem. The main issue is that the area we are talking about didn't had some specific borders.

In early medieval era northern parts were part of Slavonia while southern parts made old-Croatian county (župa - županija) called 'Sana' by the tributary of Una. Later in time of Bosnian kingdom the northwestern parts were part of Croatia and Slavonia while smaller southern and eastern parts along with western part of your Usora province and north-eastern part of your Bosnia province made area called 'Donji Kraji' or 'Donji Krajevi' (Lower Parts). Later after Ottoman conquest(post 1463. the area was established as Jajačka Banovina (Jajce Bannate) so ultimately it's up to you to choose which one is best. I'll try to look into the matter myself and make a small sketch of my own.

The westernmost parts of your province Bosnia were also called 'Zapadne Strane' (Western Sides) during Bosnian kingdom. Before the rise of Bosnian kingdom this area were part of old-Croatian župa's Pliva/Pljeva (Plivska/Pljevska) and Hlivno (Hlijevanska).

Also I would like to point out that you should also make Dalmatia a bit bigger. Since you modelled Croatia-Slavonia according to old Austro-Hungarian provinces I would suggest looking at Habsburg province of Dalmatia to see the real borders and correct this.

PS: And you can be sure. There is no way I will merge Dubrovnik/Ragusa with any other province. It was very important entity in this region, and furthemore it was a separate state during some periods too

I am glad. I mentioned it because every time I saw anyone making it a separate province there was someone putting pressure that it should be merged with something else because "it is too small". They just don't realize how important Ragusa/Dubrovnik was both culturally and politically for both Croatian and regional history and also ultimately for European history as well.

[Elvain]

thanks, yes some maps would be nice...

I'm trying to draw here all provinces that were at least once and for some time "independent" or at least were administrative parts or subordinated domains, so there is no danger that Ragusa could be "eliminated" from history :go:

once more thanks
--
I can post some maps if you will.
There are several ways to deal with this problem. The main issue is that the area we are talking about didn't had some specific borders.

Also I would like to point out that you should also make Dalmatia a bit bigger. Since you modelled Croatia-Slavonia according to old Austro-Hungarian provinces I would suggest looking at Habsburg province of Dalmatia to see the real borders and correct this.

Actualy. Habsburg time in Croatia is too late for this map, it lays between 800 to 1500 and even this is too long (Mostly I try to use materials from 1000-1400, where not available I use also little later or earlier)

The actual map of Hungary and Croatia is based on late map of Hungary (the source reffered that the comitates in 18th century copied the system based on 13th century one, but when I found a map of those comitates in 13th centuries there are differences, so it's queston of time to put there more correct map.

PS: if I understood you well you want some maps in return? I posted much more maps in other 2 places where this project runs: in my Paradox forum thread (http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?t=221753) and Arabia Universalis map thread (http://europauniversalis2.myfreeforum.org/ftopic8.php). I also plan to expand this project also somewhere else (but once it will be in more advanced phase) so I could collect even wider sources..

[Finellach]

Actualy. Habsburg time in Croatia is too late for this map, it lays between 800 to 1500 and even this is too long (Mostly I try to use materials from 1000-1400, where not available I use also little later or earlier)

The actual map of Hungary and Croatia is based on late map of Hungary (the source reffered that the comitates in 18th century copied the system based on 13th century one, but when I found a map of those comitates in 13th centuries there are differences, so it's queston of time to put there more correct map.

Well yes but the current setup of Croatia (and Slavonia) is actually extremely modern one. It is the setup of counties in Austria-Hungary in 19th century.

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-3/1157859/Croatiaintheendof19thcentury(1883.).jpg

Here are a few maps of the area from 1000-1500:

Croatian counties in around 9.-10. century according to De Administrando Imperio
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-3/1157859/DAIzupanije.jpg

Croatia in 920s
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/5d/Tomislav.jpg

The region in 1100AD - to show the divisionsin in southeastern parts
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-3/1157859/AD1100.jpg

The region in 1300AD - to show the divsion in northwestern parts
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-3/1157859/AD1300.jpg

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-3/1157859/1300b.jpg

The growth of Bosnia - showing the sub-regions and administrative principalities within Bosnian kingdom
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-3/1157859/bosna-rast.jpg

The regional division in 1250AD
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-3/1157859/Imma1250.jpg

The same around 1480
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-3/1157859/Imma1480.jpg

Croatia-Slavonia in 15th century (yellow coastal area is Venetian Dalmatia)
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-3/1157859/KingdomofSlavonija.jpg

[Finellach]

This is my proposition. You can actually leave the rather modern counties as they can too fit to the period at hand.

The only variation is in Bosnia and Dalmatia.

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-3/1157859/212.JPG

The variations are:
1. Province of Bosnia divided into three provinces: Rama/Bosnia, Donji Kraji and Završje (Zapadne Strane)
2. Province of Dalmatia enlarged and divied into two, the nortern smaller part is Zadar and the southern Split.
3. Provinces of Zagreb and Usora a bit modified (resized/enlarged)

There are few possible further modifications, such as:
- dividing Dalmatian/Split province even more into: Šibenik(Sebenico), Split(Spalato) and the hinterland (possibly Knin) since these Dalmatian cities(Zadar, Šibenik and Split) were extremely important during medieval times and were often extremely autonomous and even indepedent at times. The hinterland was part of royal Croatia.

-dividing and modifiyng Usora and Donji Kraji province by creating two province Usora and Soli provinces

That would appear something like this:
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-3/1157859/212b.JPG

The latter would be far more ideal setup.

[Elvain]

thanks. I will use your maps once I have more time

btw, here are 2 maps of hungary. Anyone here knows hungarian?
http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/9877/hungmap1ap1.gif
http://img50.imageshack.us/img50/7612/hu13xv3.gif
I'd need to know what EGYHÁZMEGYÉK means..(on the first map)

[Finellach]

I'd need to know what EGYHÁZMEGYÉK means..(on the first map)

I think it means religious provinces/counties - Bishoprics.

[Elvain]

I thought it could be this, but wasn't sure (considering how the land is divided and the fact that Hungary had 10 bishops and 2 archbishops)

Thanks

[Elvain]

:hello:
I got just another jewel for the project.

I just copied several maps from Historical atlas of Iran, published by University of Teheran, 1350 A.H. (:biggrin: well, in our era it looks much better: 1971)

I also read Ibn Battuta's Book of travells which helps a lot in middle eastern geography...

[AlexMSQ]

I have some maps of russian territories. Borders in medieval Russia were strongly degraded. So it's much text information to master. I can help you with my verbal comments.

And don't make old mistakes when you will draw Russian provinces. There is VERY LARGE pool of information to maste befor you make deсision about borders. Many borders have strongly changed though 1 century. Many provinces have appeared during 10-14 centuries and changed from small duchies to strong principals.

[Doux]

I'd need to know what EGYHÁZMEGYÉK means..(on the first map)Egyáz means church, if nothing else. And megyék: [hunting] counties. Maybe the combination means something like province..

[Elvain]

Just another part of the map is done: Iran

http://img365.imageshack.us/img365/2553/0romeirannamespp5.png
the regions (from east to west):
Tokharestán (ar. Tukharistán)
Khorásán (Khurásán)
Sístán
Sind (part)
Makrán
al-Mafáza
Qóhestán (Qúhistán)
Qúmis
Khwárezm (ar. Khwárazm)
Gurgán and Dehestán (Jurján and Dihistán)
Tabarestán (Tabaristán)
Fárs
Khózestán (Khúzistán)
Jebál (Jibál)
Daylam
Adharbayján

trascription:
č = "ch" (Chester)
š = "sh" (sheriff)

sources:
Historical Atlas of Iran, Tehran University, 1975
Brice, William - An Historical Atlas of Islam, Leiden 1981
Kennedy, Hugh - An Historical Atlas of Islam, Leiden 2002

[Mircoslavux]

uf uf from where you got it?

[Elvain]

uf uf from where you got it?
I made this map.

Sources are 3 historical atlases. 2 historical atlases of Islam (attachments to Encyclopaedia of Islam) and historical atlas of Iran published in 1975 in Teheran

[Elvain]

here's basic map of western Sudan (11th-15th centuries)
"provinces" are based on Saharan oases and provinces of kingdom of Malli

http://img387.imageshack.us/img387/6734/sudan2resizezh3.png

sources:
Brice, William - An Historical Atlas of Islam, Leiden 1981
Kennedy, Hugh - An Historical Atlas of Islam, Leiden 2002
from internet sources just the most important:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mali_Empire

[Carbon]

Here is my RomE map (Regions of medieval Europe)
http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/6454/auromeresizepf5.png

Are you sure you know the Holy Roman Empire? It seems incredibaly complicated, with over 300 states...

[Elvain]

Are you sure you know the Holy Roman Empire? It seems incredibaly complicated, with over 300 states...
it is and isn't.

There is large number of regions, but most of them are just parts of other regions and the borders were clear, so it is complicated, but very clear.. and pre-1500 HRE is much much better than post-1500

[Carbon]

it is and isn't.

There is large number of regions, but most of them are just parts of other regions and the borders were clear, so it is complicated, but very clear.. and pre-1500 HRE is much much better than post-1500

Just found a couple of maps on the Holy Roman Empire, do you know the exact dates of these pictures?

Also, do you have any other maps of the HRE, the dates don't matter actually, I am very much interested in the region (I am trying to memorise the locations of the states while studying maps).

http://aycu09.webshots.com/image/20008/2002760131343068918_rs.jpg

Bavaria Imperial Circle

http://aycu40.webshots.com/image/18119/2002756679027991849_rs.jpg

Palatinate Electorate

http://aycu17.webshots.com/image/17296/2002728980853146515_rs.jpg

Baden

[Elvain]

from the first map's name "Bavaria imperial circle" they definitely are from 16th century as division of HRE to Imperial circles is since 1500/1512.

Furthemore when Bavaria is "electorate" the map definitely has to be post-1623. Untill 1623 Bavaria was just duchy. Also if I understand it well if Upper Palatinane belongs to Bavaria and Electorate of Palatine is separated, I would put it after 1648 (in 1623 both Upper and Lower Palatinate came under Bavaria and in 1648 Lower Palatinate was separataed again)

Anyway, where have you found those maps?
PS: I will PM you some maps (or links) later

[Carbon]

from the first map's name "Bavaria imperial circle" they definitely are from 16th century as division of HRE to Imperial circles is since 1500/1512.

Furthemore when Bavaria is "electorate" the map definitely has to be post-1623. Untill 1623 Bavaria was just duchy. Also if I understand it well if Upper Palatinane belongs to Bavaria and Electorate of Palatine is separated, I would put it after 1648 (in 1623 both Upper and Lower Palatinate came under Bavaria and in 1648 Lower Palatinate was separataed again)

Anyway, where have you found those maps?
PS: I will PM you some maps (or links) later

http://www.hoeckmann.de/germany/index.htm

That's the link. Click on one of the regions and it should show a map of individual states withing the empire. The one on the link I think is post 1500s, but you can search for for any era of the HRE on the site.

[Elvain]

http://www.hoeckmann.de/germany/index.htm

That's the link. Click on one of the regions and it should show a map of individual states withing the empire. The one on the link I think is post 1500s, but you can search for for any era of the HRE on the site.
it's right there: 1789