The people have spoken...

[Stefan]

You missunderstood me here. I meant the way of life. In that sense it doesn't matter what's your religion if you do good (and mean it)


Everyone gets the chance to accept him as their savior when they die. There is no elite on this planet. Just lucky ones who may prepare themselves better to what comes after. However everyone can be saved.


Please explain both of these statements and support them with scriptural evidence.

[Anguille2]

@anguille


God has never changed, and He never will change. He was, is, and forever will be. To say that He has changed from a God of War to a God of Love.... :nono: Have you read revelations?


The "new deal" is something in American politics. Covenant..... New covenant. Not a deal...

Of course he hasn't changed as he is out of time and space. Jesus however showed the true face of God and that is love.

[Anguille2]

Anguille was saying that people get a chance to accept Jesus christ AFTER death, as in at the time of judgement, not on their deathbed. Personally i completely disagree that you can accept christ After death.

Then you condemn all the buddhists, muslims, jews, etc... to hell. I can't imagine that Jesus would allow this.

[Abeth]

Christianity does not counter capital punishment. Remember, murder is not the same as justified killing. America's laws are based upon the Judeo-Christian laws with a mixture of English common law. I am for capital punishment, but I also think it is best to try to witness to those who are convicted and show them the errors of their ways. The prison ministry is the largest outreach ministry towards convicted fellons in America. Christ told us to follow the laws of ceaser that do not contradict God's commandments. It might be confusing trying to figure out if capital punishment is okay or not... It comes down to this... Thous shalt not Kill. Capital punishment is not murder, it is justice. I know this sounds contradicting.... but it really isn't.

Are you kidding me? American laws are based around the Magna Carta and English Common Law. Judeo-Christian laws had nothing to do with it. Why would we have a governemnt that cannot legislate religiously based on religious law? I do not dare to imagine a government suffering from such schizophrenia!

The death penalty is not something justified in Christianity. It was justified through Christianity by medieval lords who wanted to kill their criminals and be done with them. There is no single place in the New Testament whereby Jesus supports, endorses, or otherwise hints that the death penalty is ok. In fact, through Jesus's execution, it can be inferred that the death penalty is a crime against God. Jesus already died for you, why should you then be killed after the fact?

Capital punishment does not have its roots in religion, despite the best efforts of religious figures to defend the system as "moral". It can never be considered moral to take the life of another human no matter what the crime. Religion teaches us that morality is God's realm of decision, therefore are we not infringing on God's ruling that we shall not judge in his place when we send a convicted felon to meet him?

Let's try to keep religion out of discussion revolving around the state, shall we? It makes no sense. The government is not religious, never was religious, and never will be religious. The state is a secular organ for a diverse people to govern themselves. It is not a place where a specific religion can legislate against all others.

[Stefan]

Then you condemn all the buddhists, muslims, jews, etc... to hell. I can't imagine that Jesus would allow this.

Both the Old and new Testament specifically deal with the concept of idoltary. Worshipping someone else is a sin. im amazed you even call youself a catholic, you sound like a unitarian. jesus gives everyone a chance to believe in him, if you choose to worship a false idol (budda, various hindu Gods) then it is your choice for damnation.

"I am the way the truth and the life, no one commeth unto the father but by me" john 14:6

Good works do nothing, we have natural sin which cannot be covered by our own acts, the Blood of Jesus Christ is all that can save us from our sins, if you choose not to believe then salvation is impossible, even if you have lived a "good life"

there is none righteous, no not one" Romans 3:10

"For by grace are ye saved by faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast" ephesians 2:8-9



Let me just say that in general all your claims about christian standpoints have been entirely unsupported, if you want to argue that people can be saved after death then prove it. Seriously dust of your bible and take a look through it.

[Alex Poff]

@Abeth,

Your writing inspires me. This is something that I completely agree upon. Religion has really no business being involved in politics. Unfortunately, in my opinion, most of the people posting on this particular thread are deeply concerned with Mr. Bush's affiliation with and apparent intent to bring religious issues into the public forum of governing your country.

[Noldy]

indeed a special case.
but an attack on your country means also a threat and limitation to your freedom and there is no superior authority to hold off the aggressor.

if you are victim of e.g. a burglar and you catch him, you have not the right to kill him, imho. its the duty of police to catch and arrest the burglar.
the right to kill to protect your possesses leads to loads of dead people, imho.


but the case of killing as last possibility to defend possessions is very difficult to decide. ;(

It wont have any effect debating on this as my convictions and arguments are based on christian belief. So what I use as an argument won't in that case be accepted by you and via versa. :)

Anguille was saying that people get a chance to accept Jesus christ AFTER death, as in at the time of judgement, not on their deathbed. Personally i completely disagree that you can accept christ After death.


LOL. That means you can live your life without any sense of God and when you see him after your death, you are suddenly converted. No, sorry. I agree with Stefan.

Of course he hasn't changed as he is out of time and space. Jesus however showed the true face of God and that is love.

Not only love. Jesus is perfection, so that includes justice. He is also our judge after our life on earth has come to an end. If all would be OK because he loves us so, what would then be the point of judgement?

Then you condemn all the buddhists, muslims, jews, etc... to hell. I can't imagine that Jesus would allow this.

We can never judge other people, only God knows the true person who is being judged. Some buddhist who has never heard of christianity can ofcourse not be blaimed. God not only judges people on their religion or environment. We can never see through the ways of God.

The death penalty is not something justified in Christianity. It was justified through Christianity by medieval lords who wanted to kill their criminals and be done with them. There is no single place in the New Testament whereby Jesus supports, endorses, or otherwise hints that the death penalty is ok. In fact, through Jesus's execution, it can be inferred that the death penalty is a crime against God. Jesus already died for you, why should you then be killed after the fact?


Not sure about the New Testament, but it is being referred to in the Old Testament. See my previous post.

[Sentra]

BTW, have you ever seen www.sorryeverybody.com ? Intriguing. I surfed the web, and suddenly there it was, right in front of my eyes. Nice. The message these pictures convey touches me, because I see I'm not the only one regretting what happened in the States.

Neither Bush nor Kerry should have applied for presidency. It is sort of ridiculous to imagine they're the best the States have to offer. Aren't there people out there way more capable than them? More intent on peace, on righteousness, on higher ideals than on needless warfare or chicken hunts? Presidents should be leaders, upright people with wisdom and insight, people with substance and morale. People with grown-up intelligence. Sadly, I don't see this in Bush or Kerry.
For me, the question never was "Bush or Kerry?" Neither of them should have won.

Sorry for interrupting your talk on religion. :D :blush:

[Abeth]

Your writing inspires me. This is something that I completely agree upon. Religion has really no business being involved in politics. Unfortunately, in my opinion, most of the people posting on this particular thread are deeply concerned with Mr. Bush's affiliation with and apparent intent to bring religious issues into the public forum of governing your country.

Thanks. :blush: I'll keep it coming, then :) I do hope I'm not offending anyone, though. I simply hold different views regarding the course the state should take...

Not sure about the New Testament, but it is being referred to in the Old Testament. See my previous post.

Technically, to be a Christian, you only have to understand the New Testament (as the Old is more of a Jewish holy script than Christian). Some of the ideas and laws laid down by the ancient hebrews conflict with what Jesus taught in his own ministry, such as the stoning of adulteresses and other forms of capital punishment. So it could be said that Judaism supports capital punishment, but Christianity "revises" the Old Testament with Jesus's views on capital punishment, those views being fairly left wing by today's American standards.

[Anguille2]

Both the Old and new Testament specifically deal with the concept of idoltary. Worshipping someone else is a sin. im amazed you even call youself a catholic, you sound like a unitarian. jesus gives everyone a chance to believe in him, if you choose to worship a false idol (budda, various hindu Gods) then it is your choice for damnation.

"I am the way the truth and the life, no one commeth unto the father but by me" john 14:6

Good works do nothing, we have natural sin which cannot be covered by our own acts, the Blood of Jesus Christ is all that can save us from our sins, if you choose not to believe then salvation is impossible, even if you have lived a "good life"

there is none righteous, no not one" Romans 3:10

Let me just say that in general all your claims about christian standpoints have been entirely unsupported, if you want to argue that people can be saved after death then prove it. Seriously dust of your bible and take a look through it.

1. I am no unitarian.
2. Jews, Budhist or Muslims have nothing to do with Idolatry. Whorshipping a statue or so is idolatry. Check your dictionnary for that word if you want to.
3. For example there are about 1 Billion Chinese who will never have heard of Jesus before they die. Will they all go to hell wihtout ever having had the choice?
4. It's easier for someone who grew up in a Christian community to say: " I believe in Jesus and i will be saved". Someone in India who believes in Vishnu has a much harder and longer way to turn to christianism.
5. "I am the way the truth and the life, no one commeth unto the father but by me" john 14:6. this is true, however i am convinced that you can accept him at the moment you die.
6. "For by grace are ye saved by faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast" ephesians 2:8-9 The meaning of this is that you cannot save yourself by giving money or going to church every week to "relief" your conscience and be saved. It's what's in your heart that matters.

PS: i read the Bible every week at the church. I am very active in my community. Being a Christian is more than just picking up some versus in the Bible, you have to understand the global meaning. I don't have my Bible here and i don't know it by heart so i can't show you what i mean now with examples.
PS: Do you know the bible by heart or do you carry it with you all day? just curious.

[Abeth]

Catholics believe that the unsaveable (those 1 billion Chinese) will not be punished for their lack of belief. The standing tradition in American "evangelical" churches is that they will all roast in hell, and it is the duty of every good Christian to ensure that doesn't happen. Thus the drive to convert.

I don't see how an all-loving God could exclude anyone from his eternal plan, but then again, I'm not God. Therefore, I cannot speak for him. And neither can any of you! :p

Still, I believe that I can say with some degree of certainty that while God did give us free will, and thus the freedom of choice, he did not grant us access to every single choice in our life. God created all humans, and thus we are all his "children". God would not discriminate against one group of children because they never knew he was their father. I just don't see God as the kind of deity who would dodge child support payments, if you get what I'm saying.

And besides, who's to say that all of the world's religions aren't equally as valid? God reveals himself in different ways to different people, after all. Judaism is markedly different from Christianity which, in turn, is markedly different from Islam, yet all three claim to share the same God. Far-eastern religions such as Buddhism have the same moral elements, and reaching a state of "Nirvana" can be compared to becoming one with God (see: total peace).

The religious among us should not discriminate against another and claim the "non-believers" are damned to hell when they do not know the extent of God's true plan. I believe that God will accept everyone since he has technically already died for all of us. At the crucifixion the sins of the whole world, past, present, and future, were absorbed in to the body of Christ. In this way, the wages of sin (which is, according to the Bible, death) were paid for by the one holding the sin - Jesus. However, I have not had a conversation with God before and do not expect to have one in my Earthly lifetime. Therefore I am not qualified to pass judgement on anyone for their religious beliefs, be they offensive to me or not.

[Anguille2]

Catholics believe that the unsaveable (those 1 billion Chinese) will not be punished for their lack of belief. The standing tradition in American "evangelical" churches is that they will all roast in hell, and it is the duty of every good Christian to ensure that doesn't happen. Thus the drive to convert.

I don't see how an all-loving God could exclude anyone from his eternal plan, but then again, I'm not God. Therefore, I cannot speak for him. And neither can any of you! :p

Still, I believe that I can say with some degree of certainty that while God did give us free will, and thus the freedom of choice, he did not grant us access to every single choice in our life. God created all humans, and thus we are all his "children". God would not discriminate against one group of children because they never knew he was their father. I just don't see God as the kind of deity who would dodge child support payments, if you get what I'm saying.

And besides, who's to say that all of the world's religions aren't equally as valid? God reveals himself in different ways to different people, after all. Judaism is markedly different from Christianity which, in turn, is markedly different from Islam, yet all three claim to share the same God. Far-eastern religions such as Buddhism have the same moral elements, and reaching a state of "Nirvana" can be compared to becoming one with God (see: total peace).

The religious among us should not discriminate against another and claim the "non-believers" are damned to hell when they do not know the extent of God's true plan. I believe that God will accept everyone since he has technically already died for all of us. At the crucifixion the sins of the whole world, past, present, and future, were absorbed in to the body of Christ. In this way, the wages of sin (which is, according to the Bible, death) were paid for by the one holding the sin - Jesus. However, I have not had a conversation with God before and do not expect to have one in my Earthly lifetime. Therefore I am not qualified to pass judgement on anyone for their religious beliefs, be they offensive to me or not.

Very good post. Thanks

[Noldy]

For example there are about 1 Billion Chinese who will never have heard of Jesus before they die. Will they all go to hell wihtout ever having had the choice?

See my previous post:
We can never judge other people, only God knows the true person who is being judged. Some buddhist who has never heard of christianity can ofcourse not be blaimed. God not only judges people on their religion or environment. We can never see through the ways of God.

And besides, who's to say that all of the world's religions aren't equally as valid? God reveals himself in different ways to different people, after all. Judaism is markedly different from Christianity which, in turn, is markedly different from Islam, yet all three claim to share the same God. Far-eastern religions such as Buddhism have the same moral elements, and reaching a state of "Nirvana" can be compared to becoming one with God (see: total peace).

The God of the Islam is absolutely NOT the same as the one the Jews and Christians worship. For instance, Allah wants people to suffer so that they will harden. The Christian God doesnt want us to suffer, he wants us to come in heaven and be perfectly happy for eternity. The God of the Jews and Christians is almost the same, christians believe in the father, the son, and the holy ghost. Jews just believe in Jahweh. And after all, Jesus not only came to save us all, but also to correct the Judeism. Alot of things in the Old Testament were interpreted wrong, and alot of things the jews included, like slaughtering lambs, wich Jesus corrected.
Ofcourese Buddhism and Christianity have the same moral elements. Is there a religion that teaches us to kill all black? Or to eat our firstborn child? Very few, i believe. Almost each religion teaches us not to steal,...etc
There are great differences between heaven and Nirvana. Please study more on this.

The religious among us should not discriminate against another and claim the "non-believers" are damned to hell when they do not know the extent of God's true plan. I believe that God will accept everyone since he has technically already died for all of us. At the crucifixion the sins of the whole world, past, present, and future, were absorbed in to the body of Christ. In this way, the wages of sin (which is, according to the Bible, death) were paid for by the one holding the sin - Jesus. However, I have not had a conversation with God before and do not expect to have one in my Earthly lifetime. Therefore I am not qualified to pass judgement on anyone for their religious beliefs, be they offensive to me or not.

Whats the point in judgement then if all go to heaven anyway? There would be absolutely no sense in leading a good life.

Cheers all :cheers:

[Noldy]

People like Abeth is what i discribe as modernists. They are overtollerent, and believe all go to heaven. Each and every religiion is good, as long as your heart feels good with it. I always charctarise this as haooy people in a most abstract building they call church. They are all singing happy church songs, give the body of jesus in the most extrordinary ways.

I am not offending or stereotyping, anybody. Not Abeth, nor anyone else.

[Anguille2]

People like Abeth is what i discribe as modernists. They are overtollerent, and believe all go to heaven. Each and every religiion is good, as long as your heart feels good with it. I always charctarise this as haooy people in a most abstract building they call church. They are all singing happy church songs, give the body of jesus in the most extrordinary ways.

I am not offending or stereotyping, anybody. Not Abeth, nor anyone else.

I don't think he said we'll all go to heaven. Just that you don't have to belong to a special group of "choosen ones" (these are dangerous fanaticals) or belong to some sectarian group (each of these groups claim to be THE group that saves...plain non-sense) in order to be saved.

Besides, i don't think God sends anyone to hell....each one creates it's own hell cos when you die, you realise all the bad you've done and that makes you suffer for eternety.

[Cro_Knight]

god does not let you suffer for eternity only how much bad youve done here will me measure in time in hell you will once be able to go to heaven once youve found your good-self and your inner person

[Cro_Knight]

catholics arnt as harsh on people as you chritian dissenters you condem everything no joke

[Stefan]

I don't think he said we'll all go to heaven. Just that you don't have to belong to a special group of "choosen ones" (these are dangerous fanaticals) or belong to some sectarian group (each of these groups claim to be THE group that saves...plain non-sense) in order to be saved.

Besides, i don't think God sends anyone to hell....each one creates it's own hell cos when you die, you realise all the bad you've done and that makes you suffer for eternety.


Christians dont believe that only 1 christian denomination is saved, but there is a big difference between worshiping christ and worshipping say buddha. Jesus claims that believeing in him will save you, but buddists, jews, muslims etc are denying christ entirely. So if they do not believe in Jesus Christ and his sacrifice how can they be saved? If you had to belong to a special group to be saved then death bed repentence (something which is definetly supported in christianity) would be impossible. Again im going to ask you to support your claims with any sort of scriptural evidence.

"He that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abbideth on him" john 3:36

[Stefan]

god does not let you suffer for eternity only how much bad youve done here will me measure in time in hell you will once be able to go to heaven once youve found your good-self and your inner person


purgatory, which you are clearly describing here, is not in the bible, prove your claim. If hell is just temporary then it should be mentioned in the bible, if not then this is just more of your church tradition and dogma.

"And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night." Revelation 14:11

"If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night…" (Rev. 14:9-11)

"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever" (Rev. 20:10).

"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, 'Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels'" (Matt. 25:31, 41). Read also the context from Matt. 25:31 to 46.

"…cast into hell fire where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched" (Mark 9:47-48 ).

"And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt" (Dan. 12:2).

[Stefan]

1. I am no unitarian.
2. Jews, Budhist or Muslims have nothing to do with Idolatry. Whorshipping a statue or so is idolatry. Check your dictionnary for that word if you want to.
3. For example there are about 1 Billion Chinese who will never have heard of Jesus before they die. Will they all go to hell wihtout ever having had the choice?
4. It's easier for someone who grew up in a Christian community to say: " I believe in Jesus and i will be saved". Someone in India who believes in Vishnu has a much harder and longer way to turn to christianism.
5. "I am the way the truth and the life, no one commeth unto the father but by me" john 14:6. this is true, however i am convinced that you can accept him at the moment you die.
6. "For by grace are ye saved by faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast" ephesians 2:8-9 The meaning of this is that you cannot save yourself by giving money or going to church every week to "relief" your conscience and be saved. It's what's in your heart that matters.

PS: i read the Bible every week at the church. I am very active in my community. Being a Christian is more than just picking up some versus in the Bible, you have to understand the global meaning. I don't have my Bible here and i don't know it by heart so i can't show you what i mean now with examples.
PS: Do you know the bible by heart or do you carry it with you all day? just curious.


regarding number 2 :Correct, bad word choice by me. Heres what im trying to get at:

Commandment 1: "Thou Shalt have NO other gods before me"
You cant worship buddha, who claims there is no natural sin and believes in reincarnation and still call yourself a follower of Jesus Christ. Just as a side note many eastern relgions have prayers in front of statues of their gods, even catholics do this sometimes with mary, seems close enough to idoltary to me.


The moment you die is different from at judgement. I believe in "death bed repetence" I do NOT believe in repentence at the time of judgement.

Not having a choice becuase you have never heard of Jesus Christ is different from refusing to accept him. I am not trying to agrue that those who have never heard of Jesus are doomed to hell. Having a plea of ignorance is different from denial of Christ altogther. That being said there are a LOT of christian missonaries out there nowadays, which makes me doubt that a lot of people have that plea of ignorance.

Regarding number 6: Are you trying to agrue that as long as you have good intentions your ok? good intentions fits under the same context as works.Just becuase you think your doing what is right doesnt make it right. If i kill someone to save my own life becuase i think my life is more valuable does that make it right?

Humanity wants to believe it is righteous and good, but as GOD points out we are all sinners in need of Jesus' blood for salvation.

Well i asked another person what he thought on the subject (he goes to churhc and has read the entire bible through multiple times in his youth) and heres what he told me over a breif msn conversation, he told me he would evaluate later today.:

" well, basically, if there was ANY other way than Jesus, then His life and DEATH were for absolutely nothing ... a waste of God's time and enegy ... His death was the payment of our sin ... the spotless lamb for the sin of man ... once and for all ... as long as they accept it.The global meaning is JESUS ... everything else is a stumbling block !
Man made religions, traps and counterfits ... all to sidetrack us from what is the truth"