The people have spoken...

[Hector]

http://static.vidvote.com/movies/bushuncensored.mov

i think he is doing it to robbie lol

[timurlenk]

This is something to think about! Since America is typically represented by an eagle. Saddam should have read
up on his Muslim passages...

The following verse is from the Koran, (the Islamic Bible)
Koran (9:11) - For it is written that a son of Arabia would awaken a fearsome Eagle. The wrath of the Eagle would be felt
throughout the lands of Allah and lo, while some of the people trembled in despair still more rejoiced; for the wrath of the
Eagle cleansed the lands of Allah; and there was peace.

(Note the verse number!) Hmmmmmmm?! God Bless!

And Im happy Bush won.


thats a hoax. :nono:

true surah 9:11
But (even so), if they repent, establish regular prayers, and practise regular charity,- they are your brethren in Faith: (thus) do We explain the Signs in detail, for those who understand.

to elections in common i wanna quote one of my favourite bands, spillsbury:
"everyone gets the $hit he deserves. but dont be offended, it was already known." 8)

[Ledhead]

W didn't kill those folks, He did not write the laws on capital punishment, nor did he have anything to do with getting them passed. They were already the law of the state of Texas when he became Governor of the state. He didn't sit as judge and jury of their case.

Another thing he didn't have subjects when he was Governor, there is no Monarchy in the US , thus there are no subjects.

Well he didn't do anything to save those peoples life as a good christian. As I understand it he have the power to pardon...?
He could also do something about these laws of Texas too, couldn't he???
And wasn't there one governor of a northern state (Illinois IIRC) that refused to carry out the death sentances. So he's a lot of things he could do if he had wanted to!
Comapre that to where he stand, and what he does, in the abortion issue...
He's a hipocrit!
But whatever it takes to win the votes of the christian right, right?
To quote the French Henry IV (a protestant): "Paris is worth a mass"

I used the word "subjects" intentionally to illustrate how careless many conservative americans view other peoples lifes...
But after you've pointed it out I think there is more punch in using "citizens", it has a Soviet feel to it. And they both killed their own citizens!

[lurking horror]

Sir Turylon:

Sorry, your had a post that sneaked in their while I was typing one of my own. So invigorating was it's composition that I felt compelled to return briefly to the discussion. My sincere apologies for dredging this back up somewhat after the fact.

do you still not accept that the image showed the unborn baby yawning? want video? What would take you to believe the baby yawned?

Look. If you want to argue that yawning is simply the stretching of face muscles and not something scientifically proven to be linked with respiration then be my guest. You'll still be wrong.

However, If your argument is the unborn baby in question is simply stretching their face muscles then yes, I'll agree to that. Why not? They have the ability. I don't have a problem with that and have never argued against it.

What I have been arguing about is that the stretching of face muscles in not, in of itself, a yawn. A yawn is linked with respiration. It is not something that works with the environment that an unborn baby exists in. Yawning is out of their scope of abilities.

And so what? The inability to yawn does not make an unborn baby less human. I've never argued that it does. In fact, I have argued to the contrary. Unborn babies can't sing or walk or dance or scream or star in a music video or go on spring break. But who cares? The ability to yawn or smile or wave or whatever is not what makes us human, is it?

I think we can agree on that much at least.

Although beyond that, I'm sure we would disagree on what does qualify as a human, but this is not what I have been arguing. I don't really care to argue it. You will never agree with me and I will never agree with you. Fortunately, we have a democracy in place to guarantee that majority rules and that such decisions stand. A decision from the heart of our political system that I am sure we will both abide by and respect.

The point is, simply because you find the mannerism of this unborn child familiar does not make it synonymous. Equally valid in your point that this is life of human nature., yes. I have no problem with that part of your argument. But regardless, this is not the familiar act you mistakenly associate with these movements.

I'd say nothing, since you will never concede that humans are not animals.

1: Are we mineral or vegetable then? Those are the only three choices.

[Ledhead]

The Columbus Dispatch wrote that the computerized Ohio votingsystem in a circuit of 638 votes counted over 4000 votes for Bush and 260 for Kerry...
Democracy in the US is flaw!

[the knightly sword]

Sir Turylon:

So the Nazi's were atheists? Really? Are you sure?

http://www.nobeliefs.com/nazis.htm



Well i dont think it matters anymore . its surely is nazy propaganda **** to wash the brains of the christain germens . would a god beliver do such a thing kill and torture humans . would a man with faith kill 30million for hes needs and his mind . would he :angry: i CANT BELIVE YOU GUYS.jesus christ´s name is not a tool to lure people to something, thats a great sin indeed
.would a man with faith build a satanic building of death like auchwitz would he :angry: :angry: :angry: . enjoy the pictures :angry: arent they good :angry: is this what a man of faith does with humans ? :angry:


here is some of the devestating death he buildidhttp://vigrid.clarence.com/archive/images/Corpi%20Ammassati%20Auschwitz.JPG http://www.czech-tv.cz/program/porady/1069676337/foto/08.jpg

[timurlenk]

would a god beliver do such a thing kill and torture humans . would a man with faith kill 30million for hes needs and his mind . would he :angry: i CANT BELIVE YOU GUYS.jesus christ´s name is not a tool to lure people to something.

sorry, but religion was always used to justify murder. doesnt matter what religion.

just if you was made believe, that the heretic / infidel isnt a creature of god and nothing more than an animal or just another being to kill in the name of your god(s).

for many people being nazis it was not inconsistent with being christians. parasites, infidels, inferior race, whatever other senseless bull$hit.
no contradiction, kill em! :nono: :nono: :nono:

[Sir Turylon]

Yes, religion has been used to kill and harm others. Do you them say that religion is wrong? No... Man has manipulated it to suit his own goals. This is seen throughout the entire course of history. What secularists are doing is this. They are saying since people have used religion as an excuse to do harm, religion itself is wrong. Have you ever seen somebody say.. Well, since people are killed by cars let's say they are evil and wrong. Is it the car's fault that the drunk driver ran the person over and killed them? Is it the car's fault the stoned driver drove into a ligthpost and killed himself? It is something computer people call "user error." Religion can be weilded for both good and wrong, but you do not say those who weild it for good are wrong. That just does not make any sense.

@Iraq
It amazes me at how stubborn Europe is over this. It is now 2004, and Iraq started in 2003... Yet Europeans are still hell bent on opposing it. You people need to realize something, you cannot change history. Get over it. Move on. If you do not support it, well good for you... Now go work on making the EU an obese governmental body of opposition to America. If you cannot see the benefit of the removal of Saddam, well, let's put Milosovic back in power. Let's clone Hitler and put him back in charge as well. Then we can reinstate Napoleon, Mussolini, Atilla, Caeser.... and any and all past tyrants! :nono:


[quote]Fortunately, we have a democracy in place to guarantee that majority rules and that such decisions stand. A decision from the heart of our political system that I am sure we will both abide by and respect.[/qoute]

You are mistaken. Majority of Americans do NOT support abortion. Abortion was never passed as law. It was a judicial decision. There is no "abortion law" in any form here. For it to have been in the constitution it would have needed state ratification... saomething it never would have gotten!!! Feminists and humanists have used liberal courts to instate laws which do not exist. Why bother with getting a law passed in the way the constitution has it mandated when you can just file a lawsuit over the taking away of a fake constitutional right? :rofl: It really is amazingly hilarious if you think about it. People clammoring on about the denial of a non-existent constitutional right.

quote from one of your Euro ranting propagandists:
"How can 59 million people be so stupid."
Population of France ~ 60 million. :rofl: j/k saw that on a website.. thought it was funny.

GW: English, Polish, Italian, Russian, Georgian, Ukrainian, Irish, Turkish, Iraqi, Afghani, Saudi, Kuwaiti, Japanese, Chinese, Korean, Egyptian, Lybian, Israeli, Jordanian, Qutarian, Australian, Uzbekistani, Turkmenistani, Pakistani, Indian.... approved.

PS. when is the EU gonna get it's own legion? any word on EU nukes yet?

[timurlenk]

@Iraq
It amazes me at how stubborn Europe is over this. It is now 2004, and Iraq started in 2003... Yet Europeans are still hell bent on opposing it. You people need to realize something, you cannot change history. Get over it. Move on. If you do not support it, well good for you... Now go work on making the EU an obese governmental body of opposition to America. If you cannot see the benefit of the removal of Saddam, well, let's put Milosovic back in power. Let's clone Hitler and put him back in charge as well. Then we can reinstate Napoleon, Mussolini, Atilla, Caeser.... and any and all past tyrants! :nono:

eh, you have your opinion, i have mine. you never will change, i never will change.
i think it was a crime of usa to attack iraq. i will be stubborn about this til i die. my affords will be to end this war and make usa retreat til i die. i know millions of americans think my way. they are also stubborn about this iraq issue. maybe cause their children, their wives and husbands, their friends and whoever die in this country for reasons they dont believe in.

the leaders you named (hitler, napoleon, mussolini, milosovic) have some interesting in common to your george w. bush... they attacked other countries.
i can only see benefit for some us companies and for their stake holders in this war. hmm, maybe benefit for the dead us soldiers, for the british kias. benefits for the thousands od dead iraqui (at least they gor rid of saddam...)?


Majority of Americans do NOT support abortion.
tell me your sources.
cause in the year 2000 there were 850.293 legal abortions reported in the us (without california, alaska and new hampshire). no idea how much illegal and not reported abortions there were.
source: departement for health and human services, centers for disease control and prevention. here! (http://www.cdc.gov)


any word on EU nukes yet?
france has nukes. should we be proud about a weapon designed to erase the whole earth? im not.

[lurking horror]

Sir Turylon: You are mistaken.

No I am not. Will you please pay attention to what I'm actually saying? I'm not specifying WHAT the decision in regards to this matter would be in either direction, but that we have a system in place that will make these decisions. Either through our legal process or our government made by people we elect.

Sir Turylon: Majority of Americans do NOT support abortion.

You don't know this for fact. Neither of us could prove this for fact. I NEVER claimed that the majority of Americans support abortion. I claimed that we have a system in place to make these decisions and that we will have to abide by them. Our elected leaders will either alter the current standing of this issue or not. As their office represents the majority will of the people, their decisions also represent the majority will of the people.

Sir Turylon: Abortion was never passed as law. It was a judicial decision. There is no "abortion law" in any form here. For it to have been in the constitution it would have needed state ratification... saomething it never would have gotten!!!

Maybe, maybe not. Has it been put to the test and turned down? Are you all knowing that you can accurately predict the actions and beliefs of all men and women? Your blind certainty is very tiring. You don't know and stating things you don't know as absolutes simply serves to diminish your argument.

Sir Turylon: Feminists and humanists have used liberal courts to instate laws which do not exist.

What? If a law is instated, then it exists. Whether you agree with it or not.

Sir Turylon: Why bother with getting a law passed in the way the constitution has it mandated when you can just file a lawsuit over the taking away of a fake constitutional right? It really is amazingly hilarious if you think about it. People clammoring on about the denial of a non-existent constitutional right.

Has it been argued as a constitutional right? I have not seen that particular argument. As I stated in my initial post on this matter, abortion is not addressed in the constitution at ALL. Therefore it is a matter of state determination. Not federal.

the knightly sword: "Well i dont think it matters anymore . its surely is nazy propaganda **** to wash the brains of the christain germens . would a god beliver do such a thing kill and torture humans . would a man with faith kill 30million for hes needs and his mind . would he i CANT BELIVE YOU GUYS.jesus christ´s name is not a tool to lure people to something, thats a great sin indeed

No one said that it wasn't a sin. But history has shown that yes, individuals who beleive in a god will still sin.

the knightly sword:.would a man with faith build a satanic building of death like auchwitz would he . enjoy the pictures arent they good is this what a man of faith does with humans ?"

[the knightly sword]

yes. looking forward to that event, personally. Yeah, Islam teaches he was a prophet of God but not the Son of God. More like Elijah. Funny thing is that Islam teaches Mohammud was taken up into heaven, but not Jesus. Almost saying Mohammud is where salvation is found.

Could you elaborate (explain further) the Islamic teaching of what path to heaven exists? From what I recall it is more of the "good deads" mannerism and living "like the prophet."

well about heaven they say that there is 10 levels the deeper the better . ther therory about judge ment goes like this=your good deeds and evil deeds are weighted if the evil weights more then the good deeds you will go to hell but if the good deeds weights more you will enter heaven (they are weight on a scale). here is a list of what they are forbidden to do wich counts like a sin
1.to kill a human
2.to drink alcoholic drinks
3.to harm a creature with out reason
4.to drink blood
5.to eat pig or swine
well thats the major stuff wich isnt alloweed to be made by muslims.
killing is great sin for them unless that person they are killing is guilty for something (murdering a servel persones) .jihad is only declared ween a muslim country been attacked ( basicly its defensiv example it was declared ween the pope sendid crusades ) there basic goal in life is to belive ,pray ,serve allah(god in arabic) and to be a good human and make good deeds.

well thats some stuff i know about islam . we are studying deeper into the religions
judasim
,christainty ,islam,buddha and so on in high school or gymnasium .

[William Blake]

Man, I love this guy!


@Iraq
It amazes me at how stubborn Europe is over this. It is now 2004, and Iraq started in 2003... Yet Europeans are still hell bent on opposing it. You people need to realize something, you cannot change history. Get over it. Move on. If you do not support it, well good for you...

Abortion is practiced, dont like it - get over it. Move on. Someone crashed a plane in WTC - move on, dont like it, but you cant change history - get over it. Kids preach to satan and listen to black metal, you dont like it, but you its history - get over it. Some guy wants to be a president, you dont like him, but hey - he will be, so why vote, you alone can't change history. Get over it.


English, Polish, Italian, Russian, Georgian, Ukrainian, Irish, Turkish, Iraqi, Afghani, Saudi, Kuwaiti, Japanese, Chinese, Korean, Egyptian, Lybian, Israeli, Jordanian, Qutarian, Australian, Uzbekistani, Turkmenistani, Pakistani, Indian.... approved.


LOL I'm literary on my floor :p You did ask people of these countries? How the ... do you know if they approve it or not. And by the way, even if you ask leaders of this countries who make moves to get some political advantage to send you troops in Iraq - how many do? Ah? Yeah, words of politicians dont mean much.

THIS WAR WAS NEVER APPROVED BY UN. Which is the only legitamate structure which represent the opinion of other countries. Moreover, US just forgot about UN and went to war, then they saw that others may have different view on situation. Not to mention lies about huge masses of weapons which will end the world in a sec by one Sadam word. By international law US is an agressor. Just like Iraq was with Kuwait, or Germany in WWII.

But since no1 wants to mess with US and dont have real interest in Iraq they LET US do it. Doesnt mean they like it, approve it or its any good.

[Stefan]

PS what's a unitarian? i am a normal catholic in the official church.


Unitarians believe that "all religions are good" and that you can worship whatever you want and get saved, direct contradiction with christian teachings. Catholics believe only the catholic denomination can be saved through faith in "mother church" and its 7 sacrements, yes the 7 sacrements are requirments for salvation. Again direct contradiction of christian teachings.

"For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God" romans 3:23

" For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, so that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" John 3:16

...while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us" romans 5:8

"there is none righteous, no not one" Romans 3:10

"For by grace are ye saved by faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast" ephesians 2:8-9

"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved" romans 10:9

[Dobber]

Well he didn't do anything to save those peoples life as a good christian. As I understand it he have the power to pardon...?
He could also do something about these laws of Texas too, couldn't he???
And wasn't there one governor of a northern state (Illinois IIRC) that refused to carry out the death sentances. So he's a lot of things he could do if he had wanted to!
Comapre that to where he stand, and what he does, in the abortion issue...
He's a hipocrit!
But whatever it takes to win the votes of the christian right, right?
To quote the French Henry IV (a protestant): "Paris is worth a mass"

I used the word "subjects" intentionally to illustrate how careless many conservative americans view other peoples lifes...
But after you've pointed it out I think there is more punch in using "citizens", it has a Soviet feel to it. And they both killed their own citizens!

Capital punishment is (and always has been throughout the course of history) used to deter flagrant, violent crimes, committed by criminal malcontents, against the citizens of a community, state, nation, etc.. It serves to hold in check crimes of violence (in many cases if a person knows and understands that the consequence of their crime will be death, thye will not commit that crime). To some their crime of violence would be worth serving the rest of their life in prison, but not worth dieing thus preventing the crime.

As for the reference to US and Russia both killing their citizens, the US executes those that commits crimes against their fellow ctizens, the Russians under Sovet rule executed those that committed acts of defiance against the government. A very big difference.

[Stefan]

well about heaven they say that there is 10 levels the deeper the better . ther therory about judge ment goes like this=your good deeds and evil deeds are weighted if the evil weights more then the good deeds you will go to hell but if the good deeds weights more you will enter heaven (they are weight on a scale). here is a list of what they are forbidden to do wich counts like a sin
1.to kill a human
2.to drink alcoholic drinks
3.to harm a creature with out reason
4.to drink blood
5.to eat pig or swine
well thats the major stuff wich isnt alloweed to be made by muslims.
killing is great sin for them unless that person they are killing is guilty for something (murdering a servel persones) .jihad is only declared ween a muslim country been attacked ( basicly its defensiv example it was declared ween the pope sendid crusades ) there basic goal in life is to belive ,pray ,serve allah(god in arabic) and to be a good human and make good deeds.

well thats some stuff i know about islam . we are studying deeper into the religions
judasim
,christainty ,islam,buddha and so on in high school or gymnasium .


If thats what muslims believe then the god Allah cannot be the same as the God of Judaism and Christianity.

[Alex Poff]

I believe it was Sir Turylon who mentioned that it was interesting how a political thread had become a thread mostly about religious issues. I want to point out an interesting poll result I read about on Wednesday, the day after the election. It was performed by Ipsos-Reid I believe and was made to point out the difference between Americans and Canadians.

2 out of 3 (66%) Americans believe religion and politics should mix.

only 40% of Canadians feel the same.

A significant difference. It shows (at least to me) how President Bush was successful. He was able to elevate issues with a religious base to the forefront. Polls have continually shown that Bush supporters were more concerned with "moral issues" and "family values" than they were with the economy and the rightness/wrongness over the war in Iraq, which are issues that Kerry attempted to put at the forefront.

My personal opinion is that this is regrettable. However, 51% of Americans disagree with me. Oops, hey, I guess that means that 49% of Americans agree with me (48% Kerry, 1% Nader).

There isn't much more to say about it. I am just glad I don't live there. I think America is a great country, I just don't agree with their choice of leader, this time.

[the knightly sword]

If thats what muslims believe then the god Allah cannot be the same as the God of Judaism and Christianity.


ehh lol? everyone knows that judasim ,christanity and islam
relates to each other. its just some people getting the wrong fact or deniaing it just because they think it its violent or terrorism kinda religion . man thats so stupid :cool:

[Ledhead]

Capital punishment is (and always has been throughout the course of history) used to deter flagrant, violent crimes, committed by criminal malcontents, against the citizens of a community, state, nation, etc.. It serves to hold in check crimes of violence (in many cases if a person knows and understands that the consequence of their crime will be death, thye will not commit that crime). To some their crime of violence would be worth serving the rest of their life in prison, but not worth dieing thus preventing the crime.

As for the reference to US and Russia both killing their citizens, the US executes those that commits crimes against their fellow ctizens, the Russians under Sovet rule executed those that committed acts of defiance against the government. A very big difference.

The US should be a deterence that capital punishment doesn't work don't you think?!
And if someone labeles himself a follower of Jesus he should do something against capital punishment IMO!
Give all the people in the weathiest country in the world an equal start in life and you'll have less violence in your society

As for your other point I think that if you continue take out the life of retarded people, children (in a legal sense) and innocent people just because they had the wrong skincolor (which made the governor of Illinois (?) stop all executions!) just because it increases you popularity among important voting groups then I think that you're even worse then what they did in the USSR.
In the US you are considerd soft on crimes if you pardon anyone, how sick is that?

[Dobber]

And if someone labeles himself a follower of Jesus he should do something against capital punishment IMO!



Jesus stated that he came to fufill the law not to destroy it.
The laws God ordained in the Old Testament included capital punishment.
There were laws that required whole families to be out to death for the crimes of one member.
Children could be put to death for disrespecting their parents.
There were many such laws.

There were two thieves being executed (one on either side) along with Jesus as he hung on a cross. One thief accepted Christ, but Jesus pardoned his sin, but he did not rake away the consequence of his sin. He said that today you will be with Me in Paradise. The thief still suffered his execution.

There can be pardon, but we still have to suffer the consequence of our actions.

[Ernst]

quote from one of your Euro ranting propagandists:
"How can 59 million people be so stupid."
Population of France ~ 60 million. :rofl: j/k saw that on a website.. thought it was funny.
Well, that's what I call humour. May God save America, as they say... ;(