The people have spoken...

[Nike]

"Repent, repent, for the judgement day is near!" :cheers:
Anonymous KoH Cleric

Guys, you're still arguing here? Cool! Who has won? :silly:

[Noldy]

I dont think anybody will win...ever...

[Stefan]

He had sorrow over his sins (one of them) thats why he was saved.
that would be repentence. He repented and accepted christ as his salvation...

[Sir Turylon]

He acknowledged that Christ was indeed Lord. He also asked Him to remember him in heaven. Basic sinners prayer, forgiveness and rememberance through the blood of Christ.

[lurking horror]

Sir Turylon:

Out of curiosity here, do you also automatically dimiss documentaries because they are simply "movies"?

[Sir Turylon]

No, but I never fully agree with anything even if I find multiple sources to confirm it. I do not just sit and look at a few cartoon strips or watch a documentary and say.. "oh, this is absolutely factual." One of the biggest mysteries is actually relevant to KoH. Where the crusades an evil encroachment against Islam, or a desperate defensive holy war in an attempt to halt Islam from utterly destroying Christendom? There are two sides, and usually the truth lies in the middle. This is the same approach I would take to Israel and Palestine... IF I did not already back Israel 100%. Why do I back Israel 100%? The reasons are many, but they can be simplified to one phrase. Mount of Olives.

Best approach to learning history and political turmoil is skepticism. no? Why did he write this? What did the other guy say?

[lurking horror]

Sir Turylon: "No, but I never fully agree with anything even if I find multiple sources to confirm it. I do not just sit and look at a few cartoon strips or watch a documentary and say.. "oh, this is absolutely factual."

Of course not. I see nothing in any of my posts to indicate that one should accept any attempt at journalisim has unassailable fact without further investigation. By all means, show me one point in this conversation where I have said anything remotly akin to: "oh, this is absolutely factual."

Regardless, you blatantly dismiss the journalistic merit of one media altogether based solely on the delivery message. Not the actual content.

So does the graphic storytelling format of the work somehow invalidate the work itself? That's certainly what you imply by your complete dismissal of the material.

Sir Turylon: "IF I did not already back Israel 100%. Why do I back Israel 100%? The reasons are many, but they can be simplified to one phrase. Mount of Olives."

So... You make it quite clear on multiple occassions that you feel that Israel is partially to blame for the state of violence in this region and you back them unconditionally? Do you realize how little sense that makes? You support all the violence on the Israeli end simply because of a supposedly holy location?

[Hector]

No, but I never fully agree with anything even if I find multiple sources to confirm it. I do not just sit and look at a few cartoon strips or watch a documentary and say.. "oh, this is absolutely factual." One of the biggest mysteries is actually relevant to KoH. Where the crusades an evil encroachment against Islam, or a desperate defensive holy war in an attempt to halt Islam from utterly destroying Christendom? There are two sides, and usually the truth lies in the middle. This is the same approach I would take to Israel and Palestine... IF I did not already back Israel 100%. Why do I back Israel 100%? The reasons are many, but they can be simplified to one phrase. Mount of Olives.

Best approach to learning history and political turmoil is skepticism. no? Why did he write this? What did the other guy say?



does your religion justify what ur doing or does it actually do the reverse?

your opinion is like this your gonna help one guy because he has much money and not the other because he doesnt have money

[the knightly sword]

why is people here denieng islam as a religion of god . as i have said before ( but people either not noticeing or just dont care ) that islam does approve and state that jesus christ and moses are prophets . but still people denie it . they see it as a militant and terroristic religion . so sad that people are so closed minded . turylorn i bet you have got all your facts and studys about islam from critizsing sources .

[Cali Knight]

Moses was a prophet, but Jesus was not. Jesus was God (John 1:1, 14; Isa. 9:6; Heb. 1:8)( I will write these in full when I have time.).

John 1:1
In the beginning the Word already existed. He was with God, and he was God.

Isaiah 9:6
For a child is born to us, a son is given to us. And the government will rest on his shoulders. These will be his royal titles: Wonderful Counselor, F25 Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Hebrews 1:8
But to his Son he says, "Your throne, O God, endures forever and ever. Your royal power is expressed in righteousness.

[Sir Turylon]

Well Lurker... you can think whatever you want to think. Personally, I am tired of attempting to try to reason with you. When someone presents a side which is opposite of your own, you attempt to dismantle it because it is not what you believe. When you are revealed as doing such, you backtrack and demand that person to show you where you said their side was wrong. Have you ever considered that you might be wrong? I'm geussing no, because you consider yourself to be an intellectual elite when it comes to such matters. (How dare he say I am wrong... who is this conservative scumbag who is opposing my perfect intellectual opinion)

I'd ask where you are getting your information from, but I already know. Anti-Israel and Unitarianist studies. You never delve deep enough into each side of the debate. Rather, you pick and chose a few points from each and arrive at a centrist opinion. Nobody is to blame but everybody. Moral neutrality. "It is not my place to say what is and what isn't right or wrong." I've seen this type of opinion before, so do not attempt your backtracking trick.

@Hector
Does my religion say I am to support Jews? why yes... Does it say I am suppose to support those that are trying to eliminate jews? why... no. Am I suppose to oppose and not support Islam? Yes and no. Do I need to accept it as a religion that believes in the true God while the same religion states that Christians have strayed from the true faith, and created a fictitious Son of God? Why... no. Does it say I am suppose to kill those that do not believe in God? why.. no. Does it say I am suppose to show God's love to such people? why.. yes. Does it say I am suppose to centralize what I feel is right and wrong in order to not offend anyone who believes all religions are the same? No.

This has nothing to do with who has much money. If the Palestinians will stop trying to destroy the nation of Israel, they will gain the support of many more people. Remember, we are all equally made. There should be no prejudice about who is better. The only thing that is preventing me from supporting Palestinians is their denial of a Jewish state, and their attempts at destroying it. This will never happen though... So why do they keep on doing it? (and do not say it is because Israel is oppressing them) I am sure that if a Palestinian wanted to live normally, Israel would let them live in peace. Their only conflict is with the numerous terrorists and "liberation fronts" attempting to destroy their nation.

@the cartoon
I gotta laugh at that comment. Saying a graphic cartoon can accurately display what is going on is like saying Gotham city in the Batman cartoon is an accurate display of NYC.

As for my own sources.
I get them from 5-6 sources. (list just a couple since you'd scoff at the other ones, eventhough they are credible and non-biased. :rofl: )
first source is the Quran/Koran itself.
second source is from History books that are not centrists... IE, they teach both the good and bad sides of each topic.
(I will be getting more, since this unitarian idealism is very interesting... and also is prophecized multiple times in the "end days prophetics".)

I hope you are not as close minded as you are attempting to portray myself. If you think the best way to learn about something is by reading only things that agree with your opinion, you are sadly naive.

I've said it before... and since Lurker has not read it and attempted to reason it...
Islam cannot in no way, shape, or form be of the same God as Christianity and Judaism. Islam denies the divinity of Christ. Islam denies the existence of he Holy Spirit. Islam does not have the same belief in salvation. The only connecting factor between Islam, Judaism, and Christianity is Abraham. The difference is... Jacob (Israel) was given the inheritence, while Ishmael (the father of Arabia) was not. While they are both linked to the Abrahamic covenant, Ishmael was never part of it. Ever since, the line of Ishmael has been trying to obtain that birthright. Laugh, scoff, denie it... It really does not matter. Islam will never be able to claim it is of the same God of Jacob and David. It will also never be able to claim it worships the same God of Christians when it denies His Son and His Spirit.



Thinking point: If the world body of the UN is such a great grop dedicated to world peace, why have they not attempting to dismantle Hezbollah, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Al Queda, Al Aqsa (oops) Arrafat's Martyrs Brigade, terrorist organizations? Why have they instead decided to side with these terrorist groups in their opposition of Israel's sovreign right to defend itself from such militant groups? Why hasn't the UN gone in to stop the slaughter of Christian Africans in the south of Sudan by the Muslim groups in the north?

some undisputable food for you to munch on.

PS Hector. I really have nothing against Muslims. Just as long as you do not pick up a couple sticks of TNT and run into a crowded pizza place in downtown Tel Aviv yelling "God is Great." Go in peace. :cheers:

[Sir Turylon]

Don't forget the passage about how even the demons knew that Christ was the Son of God, but he commanded them to not reveal it because His work was not finished.

@Lurker, again.

Nobody is denying that Islam does not teach that Jesus was a prophet. What Islam is denying is what I posted before... That God never had a son, and there is not Holy Trinity.

It's very sad to see someone dismiss an award winning piece of journalism as "a cartoon" and "fiction". You did not read anything from it. You did not investigate. You merely make a prejudiced assumption of the merit of it's content based solely on it's appearance. Very narrow minded of you.

what award? provide link plz.

Yasser Arrafat won the Nobel Peace Prize.... then 2 years later commanded Homicide bombers to attack innocent civilians. What a great leader of peace he was....

[lurking horror]

Well Lurker... you can think whatever you want to think. Personally, I am tired of attempting to try to reason with you. When someone presents a side which is opposite of your own, you attempt to dismantle it because it is not what you believe.

Excuse me? In case you were unaware, one of the primary purposes of debate is to dismantle an opinion that is in opposition of your own.

When you are revealed as doing such, you backtrack and demand that person to show you where you said their side was wrong.

I've said that you were wrong on a multitude of occasions. Unfortunately you keep assigning arguments to me inaccurately. Remember when you accused me of claiming that all Christians are Nazis? I never said that, did I? Or when you said that I believed that life started at birth? I never said that either. If you are going to claim that I hold a point of view or a belief that I do NOT, then of COURSE I am going to challenge your inaccurate statement.

Have you ever considered that you might be wrong? I'm geussing no, because you consider yourself to be an intellectual elite when it comes to such matters. (How dare he say I am wrong... who is this conservative scumbag who is opposing my perfect intellectual opinion)

No. I'm fully aware that there are areas of my knowledge that are lacking. But am I supposed to sit back and ignore your attempts to assign statements and opinions to me inaccurately? Let's try it out on you:

Hey, remember when you said that you approved of the good work the KKK was doing down in the south? Remember when you claimed that all Jews should have been wiped out in concentration camps? Remember when you said that all Muslims were Nazi baby eaters that wore dresses? No? Well of course you don't, because you never said any of these things. This is what you have been doing to me, and now you claim that my dismissal of your mistaken claims is "backtracking"? How high are you? I ask you for proof of your presumptuous accusations and you refuse, followed shortly by you once again assigning opinions and arguments to me that are incorrect. You are either in too far over your head to keep track of all the dissenting opinions or you are a childish moron intent only on trolling.

I'd ask where you are getting your information from, but I already know.

No you don't.

Anti-Israel and Unitarianist studies.

I have no idea what Unitarianist studies would consist of. So no. You are incorrect. Anti-Israel studies? That would be a matter of opinion as to what Anti-Israel consists of.

You never delve deep enough into each side of the debate. Rather, you pick and chose a few points from each and arrive at a centrist opinion. Nobody is to blame but everybody. Moral neutrality. "It is not my place to say what is and what isn't right or wrong." I've seen this type of opinion before, so do not attempt your backtracking trick.

My "backtracking" trick? You mean the one where I point out to you that I never said something as useless as "all Christians are Nazis"? Where I point out the TRUTH to you? Yeah, it's quite a trick.

And you know what's funny? You agree with me on the subject that both sides have blame in this matter. And unlike you, I'll provide you with a quote showing that you have indeed made this statement:

nobody is trying to denie the Palestinian debacle and say Israel is not to blame for some of it.

There are two sides, and usually the truth lies in the middle

You dirty centerist. How dare you agree with me that the blame lies with both sides.

I hope you are not as close minded as you are attempting to portray myself. If you think the best way to learn about something is by reading only things that agree with your opinion, you are sadly naive.

There you go again. I've already stated quite clearly that I believe that one must investigate multiple sources. I've provided you with something outside of YOUR experience and you dismiss it as fiction without any investigation. Yet you accuse me of naiveté and being closed minded? Hypocrite.

I've said it before... and since Lurker has not read it and attempted to reason it...
Islam cannot in no way, shape, or form be of the same God as Christianity and Judaism. Islam denies the divinity of Christ. Islam denies the existence of he Holy Spirit. Islam does not have the same belief in salvation. The only connecting factor between Islam, Judaism, and Christianity is Abraham. The difference is... Jacob (Israel) was given the inheritence, while Ishmael (the father of Arabia) was not. While they are both linked to the Abrahamic covenant, Ishmael was never part of it. Ever since, the line of Ishmael has been trying to obtain that birthright. Laugh, scoff, denie it... It really does not matter. Islam will never be able to claim it is of the same God of Jacob and David. It will also never be able to claim it worships the same God of Christians when it denies His Son and His Spirit.

What are you talking about? I have not addressed the comparable elements of these religions at all. You are once again assigning elements of the debate to me that do not apply. Frankly, I do not know enough about any of these religions to debate the validity of such a claim. Leave me out of it and STOP assigning beliefs to me that I do not hold. It is an incredibly childish way to discuss or debate.

@Lurker, again.

Nobody is denying that Islam does not teach that Jesus was a prophet. What Islam is denying is what I posted before... That God never had a son, and there is not Holy Trinity.

What are you talking about? I have not EVER entered into this particular avenue of discussion. The reason I keep asking you to show me where I have done so is because you NEED to start paying closer attention to who makes which comment. I know next to nothing about any of these religions and would not choose to debate these issues. Leave me out of it and stop assigning arguments to me incorrectly.

what award? provide link plz.

http://www.literature-awards.com/american_book_awards.htm

@the cartoon
I gotta laugh at that comment. Saying a graphic cartoon can accurately display what is going on is like saying Gotham city in the Batman cartoon is an accurate display of NYC.

I suppose Art Spiegelman's "Maus", which was a visual transcription of his father's experience in a Nazi concentration camp, is right up their with Garfield. Despite the fact that it won a Pulitzer. Do not dismiss what you have not experienced. There are as many forms of graphic art as their are types of written literature. Is Batman an accurate display of NYC? Of course not. It is not meant to be. Does that mean the same medium cannot be used to accurately display NYC? No. The limitations on the medium stem only from perception. You compare Sacco's Palestine with Batman because you have no frame of reference.

What you are saying is tantamount to claiming that a book cannot accurately display what is going on in Palestine because Bram Stokers Dracula is not an accurate depiction of Count Vladamir. Or that a television news program cannot accurately display what is going on in Palestine because Friends is not an accurate portrayal of life in New York. Or that the newspaper cannot accurately display what is going on in Palestine because Dilbert is not an accurate portrayal of office life. You are mistaking the messenger for the message, as it were.

[Cro_Knight]

stop this plaes

[Sir Turylon]

wow. just plain wow....

do you even bother to read the posts or go directly to the reply button and then post quotes?

Yet you accuse me of naiveté and being closed minded? Hypocrite.
a hypocrite calling somebody a hypocrite... how quaint. Perhaps, you cannot understand my English. When I say.. "If you think this, then you might just be naive." This is what is known than an if->then statement. If you do not pass the IF part, the THEN part does not matter. Welcome to the wonderful world of rhetoric.

When you see @name... it is directed at said Name... not you. not the other guy, but just Name.

never heard of the American Book Award... Is it given to just graphic novels?

Sorry, but a book about a subject that uses images to describe what the author is trying to portray is not a credible source for a topic, IMPO. Why? Because there is no way an image can capture all of the scene. Now, if it was based off ACTUAL images, and not a cartoon rendering... there is some credit in such things.

I've provided you with something outside of YOUR experience and you dismiss it as fiction without any investigation.
actually, no. You did not provide me with any more content that I had not already known about.

Well said. Debating is meant to dismantle another person's point of view, BUT.... You dismantle it by providing a stronger case, not by calling your opponent close minded and his sources uncredulous because they come from a source which is not in agreement with you.
as in...
so sad that people are so closed minded . turylorn i bet you have got all your facts and studys about islam from critizsing sources .

What are you talking about? I have not EVER entered into this particular avenue of discussion.
hmmm.....
[quote]why is people here denieng islam as a religion of god . as i have said before ( but people either not noticeing or just dont care ) that islam does approve and state that jesus christ and moses are prophets . but still people denie it .[/quote[


back to your cartoon book.
read the review... they are insteresting.
Cartoon Presentation of Repressive Israeli occupation of Palestine... (http://www.fantagraphics.com/artist/sacco/sacco.html)
plz... balanced view... If that cartoon book is what you call balanced... you need to go check what Balance means.
Balanced (http://www.mideastweb.org/briefhistory.htm)

but, enough about this....

[lurking horror]

wow. just plain wow...

Wow indeed. In the following response you continue to misassign comments to me. Nice going. You have no idea what's going on in this conversation anymore, do you?

do you even bother to read the posts or go directly to the reply button and then post quotes?

I read the posts. You clearly do not.

a hypocrite calling somebody a hypocrite... how quaint. Perhaps, you cannot understand my English. When I say.. "If you think this, then you might just be naive." This is what is known than an if->then statement. If you do not pass the IF part, the THEN part does not matter. Welcome to the wonderful world of rhetoric.

Does your interpretation of rhetoric include misassigning quotes and opinions repeatedly?

When you see @name... it is directed at said Name... not you. not the other guy, but just Name.

You mean like this one below?

@Lurker, again.

Nobody is denying that Islam does not teach that Jesus was a prophet. What Islam is denying is what I posted before... That God never had a son, and there is not Holy Trinity.

What is the purpose of "@Lurker" if the statement following the designation is not directed at me? Were you just saying "@Lurker" for the pure enjoyment of it? No, of course you were not. You were specifically directing a comment to me. A comment that has no bearing on my argument.

And then there is this one:

I've said it before... and since Lurker has not read it and attempted to reason it...
Islam cannot in no way, shape, or form be of the same God as Christianity and Judaism...

Yeah, you're not talking to me directly here. But you are clearly reffering to me in regards to an argument that I NEVER commented on. To what end? How did I "attempt to reason it"? Where? Oh right, never.

Pay attention already.

never heard of the American Book Award... Is it given to just graphic novels?

No. If you follow the most recent link I provided for you you will see a clear explanation of what the American Book Award is.

Sorry, but a book about a subject that uses images to describe what the author is trying to portray is not a credible source for a topic, IMPO. Why? Because there is no way an image can capture all of the scene.

Do you believe that a text book can capture all of a given scene? Furthermore, the book in question does not rely exclusively on imagery to convey its intent. Additionally, it is simply a different form of media. It tells a story differently. That does not invalidate the material in the slightest.

Now, if it was based off ACTUAL images, and not a cartoon rendering... there is some credit in such things

The point of the rendering is not to portray a perfect visual interpretation. It is often used to create mood and emotive response.

actually, no. You did not provide me with any more content that I had not already known about.

Really? How can you possibly say this when you have not read the book in question?

Well said. Debating is meant to dismantle another person's point of view, BUT.... You dismantle it by providing a stronger case, not by calling your opponent close minded and his sources uncredulous because they come from a source which is not in agreement with you.
as in..."so sad that people are so closed minded . turylorn i bet you have got all your facts and studys about islam from critizsing sources"

Ironically enough, your example of my inability to debate properly does not come from me. This comment was made by "the knightly sword" in post 249. Am I to be held accountable for the comments made by others? This inability to apply comments appropriately underscores your inability to debate quite well enough withot me having to resort to attacking your sources. Hence the irony.

For that matter, do you even know who you are addressing on any particular argument? Clearly you do not. If I am to give you the benefit of the doubt, I would have to say that, at best, you have unintentionally created a false belief of my arguments and my attitude based on your own inability to pay attention. And you accuse me of failing to read the posts? This is why you are a hypocrite.

hmmm.....

"why is people here denieng islam as a religion of god . as i have said before ( but people either not noticeing or just dont care ) that islam does approve and state that jesus christ and moses are prophets . but still people denie it ".

THAT-WAS-NOT-ME. Feel free to go back and look. I never made this argument. The comment you are weakly applying to me was made (once again) by "the knightly sword" in (again) post 249.

For the last time, I have never entered into the argument about comparable elements of religion in this (or any other) thread. I would not do so as it is not something I feel qualified to discuss. But you have pushed me to the limits of my patience in this regard. You accuse me of not reading the posts when you have been shown to either

A: Not read them yourself.

B: Purposely misrepresent another's position to make a point.

C: So completely out of your league and over your head that you no longer know who has said what in this conversation.

Let's face it. You had to go and find that post by "the knightly sword", to copy and paste it into your own post. Did you somehow miss the different user icon or the different handle in BIG YELLOW LETTERS? Or did you do this on purpose? It's getting really hard to believe that you are so unobservant as to completly miss the difference in grammar, spelling, tone, content, handle, picture. Frankly, it looks suspiciously like you did it on purpose.

In short, I'm tired of your childish antics. Grow up. Be an adult and admit your (repeated) error(s).

back to your cartoon book.
read the review... they are insteresting.

If you had read the reviews then I doubt you would need to ask if the American Book Award was only ever given to graphic novels.

Cartoon Presentation of Repressive Israeli occupation of Palestine.

I'm not certain which review you are referring to. This one?

"Sacco's Palestine brilliantly and poignantly captures the essense of life under a repressive and prolonged occupation. Each page is equivalent to an essay on one of the many aspects of the occupation - killings, injuries, administrative detention, bureaucratic harrassment, death squads, land confiscation, torture... etc. His material is presented with a great deal of skill, insight and compassion."
- Nasseer H. Azuri, Professor of Political Science,
The University of Massachusetts Dartmouth

Or this one?

Sacco's insightful reportage takes place at the front lines, where busy marketplaces are spoiled by shootings and tear gas, soldiers beat civilians with reckless abandon, and roadblocks go up before reporters can leave. Sacco interviewed and encountered prisoners, refugees, protesters, wounded children, farmers who had lost their land, and families who had been torn apart by the Palestinian conflict.
"Palestine… is this genius' magnum opus."
- World Art

Maybe you mean this one. Note that this one specifies that the American Book award is rarely given to a graphic novel.

In 1996, the Before Columbus Foundation awarded PALESTINE the seventeenth annual AMERICAN BOOK AWARD, a prestigious rarity for something told in comic book form that rightfully recognized Sacco's unique talents as both a journalist and cartoonist, stating that the author should be recognized for his "outstanding contribution to American literature," while his publisher, Fantagraphics, is "to be honored for their commitment to quality and their willingness to take risks that accompany publishing outstanding books and authors that may not prove 'cost-effective' in the short run."
"Joe Sacco's Palestine… is a whole that transcends both its medium and its mandate."
- Washington City Paper

I'm failing to see what you are attempting to direct my view towards.

plz... balanced view... If that cartoon book is what you call balanced... you need to go check what Balance means.

I never referred to this work as balanced, so I fail to see what your point is in this regard. I refered to it as "interesting" and "relativly impartial". Is the book a perfectly balanced view? No. It's actually quite rare that anything is. Even the author admits in the book that his book leans towards highlighting the Palestinian side of the conflict. So, what's your point?

but, enough about this....

Whatever you say. If you are tired of mis-applying quotes to me in a vague hope to win the debate then feel free to leave the conversation.

[Stefan]

why is people here denieng islam as a religion of god . as i have said before ( but people either not noticeing or just dont care ) that islam does approve and state that jesus christ and moses are prophets . but still people denie it . they see it as a militant and terroristic religion . so sad that people are so closed minded . turylorn i bet you have got all your facts and studys about islam from critizsing sources .

We are not claiming it is a terrorist religion, we are only making claim that they are not the same God. we are not saying allah demands his followers to kill people or anything like that, just that allah and God (Father,Jesus,Holy spirit) are not the same as Allah.

@sir turylon: Your making comments towards lurker which should not be made towards him. He has not posted on the religion issue yet you are making comments about that issue directed at him, as if he was involved in the issue. You are also quoting others and claiming that lurker either made the post or posted something similar (which he didn't). I may agree with your opinions but i still believe you are being very unfair to lurking horror. Both of you need to calm down and either think hard before posting or refrain from posting at all

[Anguille2]

I agree with Stefan,

Despite arguing with facts, noone is close to objectivity. Truth lies somewhere in Between.

It's wrong to blame everything on Israel or the US.
It is wrong to blame everything on the UN or the Palestinians.

They should all get their hands from their face and admit their own mistakes. Then make some true steps towards peace as the people did for the Geneva agreement.

Allah, God and Jehova are one and same God. The PERCEPTION is different. Jews rely on the old testament for the description of God, Christians on the old/new testament and Muslims on the old testament AND the Koran. The groud for the belief is the same at the start but again the PERCEPTION drifted along the way. God is the only one who can say for sure who's right but i guess there's truth in all of them.

That's my final statement and i'll refer to it if needed. Cheers :cheers:

[Dobber]

And the loser is "Anyone reading this thread who has not made a decision about GOD!".

Anybody that has not made a decision in their lives pertaining to "GOD" would be driven from the face of GOD based on what they read in this thread. They would want no part of anything that caused such dissension as the participants of this thread are causing.

Besides you are way off-topic. Go back to the start of the thread, it was not about religion, it was about the US presidential election. Your religious battles should be waged via PM's.

You are acting like 5 year olds, and you are not going to change anybodies mind with your argument.

[Webmaster]

i want no religios wars in my board, understood?
i am citizen of the EU and here you can believe in whatever you want as long as you don't interfere or try to convert anybody else.

so i will temporaly close this thread to led everybody cool down.

~ closed.tmp ~