The people have spoken...

[Lord Elric]

I said nothing about the basic philosophy, but I meant it's following alteration to serve for government purposes.

[Sir Turylon]

*walks back in from a day off the computer out in reality land*

Well. I cannot believe in evolution for one simple reason. It is unscientific. Science demands that any and all theories are not valid until they are proven. Evolution is unprovable. So it would be a matter of faith to believe in it. And... I am not about to abandon my religious beliefs for evolution and it's atheistic beliefs.

And that is what evolution truely is, it is a conjecture about existence. When you try to reveal it asa theory, evolutionists become inflamed. How dare you question their superiorty in the matter of existence. Evolution cannot be wrong, is their whining cry. They never question their own theory, for they know it will collapse. Now, I've studied both theories for decades... literarly, decades. (like 14-16 years) I've seen the evidence that evolutionists present, and it does not add up. In a society where equality is suppose to rule, how can students really get a quality education when they are force-fed only ONE side of such an important issue like existence?

I do not know if anyone here would know about it, but there was a trial about evolution in schools. It was popularly called the Scopes monkey trial. In the trial, the advocate for evolution wanted the theory to be introduced as an alternative to creationism. He won the case. Fast-forward 90+ years and you will not see creation taught in any school in this country. Students are FORCED to sit in a biology class and listen to a "scientist" ramble on about an unproven theory. When creationism is brought up, it is mocked as a "anti-scientific theory." Well, let's take a look at what evolution really is.

One thing that really surprises me is how humanists claim evolution as their religion. (you can search for this on their website... it's there) Evolution as a religion? How?

Let's look at some facts of both. Evolution and Creation are both not proven by the scientific method. Since we cannot test either, neither will become a scientific law. Evolution denies that God had anything to do with life. To go even further, evolution denies the existence of a higher power. This is seen in the theory of an ever-expanding and contracting universe which recycles itself ever few quadrillion centuries. Evolution denies the spiritual existence of mankind. We are not spiritual beings for we evolved from amoebas. This also points to an atheistic approach to our existence. Evolution also implies that there is not moral standard for us to live by. Since homo sapiens are merely evolved apes, we can not think of ourselves as being greater than the animals. This leads us into farsicle saying, "it's just our animal nature."

Now, since evolution is more of a religious theory on existence, why is it not opposed under "seperation of church and state?" One simple reason. Those who oppose everything about creation and other Judeo-Christian teachings being allowed in schools, do not hold the same intolerance for their own beliefs. This is how the schools in America are filled with condoms, evolution, pregnant teenagers, profanity, violence, and outright stupidity. (if you wish to look into it, do some research on the decline of public schools from 1962 to today) Right now, the last bastion of education is the private schools. This is also why private schools are CONSISTENTLY scoring double digits higher on knowledge and apptitude testing. It is also why GW has pushed for the NCLB act.

*end educational crisis... I can really go on about this one*

Back to evolution.... Charles Darwin was right! Natural selection does exist. Survival of the fittest does imply to our existence. But is it an evolutionary process? Of course not. If natural selection proves evolution, then so does any other form of seperating the best from the worst at something. Evolution, by its nature, would never be able to exist. Since everything needs to be constantly changing, there would be constant factors. When was the last time you sprouted wings? Humans, by nature, do not adapt themselves to their environment. We adapt our environment to ourselves. This is seen over 6-7000 years. We have "evolved" our methods of adapting our environment through invention. When was the last time you went snorkling? Did you use a oxygen tank and breathing aparatus, or did you grow gills? Humans are not unique in their adpation of their environment, for even the simplest bird builds a nest somewhere. Wait... I think we just hit on something.... call it an evolutionary breakthrough. All of the fauna on the Earth adapts their environment! Let's take a look at that. Can anyone think of an animal that evolves themselve when they move to a new environment? (note: chameleons and other such animals do not count.)

Food for thought: At the simplest atomic level, every atom vibrates. If you go even farther, into the sub-atomic level, every photon vibrates. This is quite fascinating since sonic vibrations, which is what these vibrations are classified as, fade out over time eventually stopping. What is making these particles vibrate? Genesis 1:3 "God said...." Could the voice of God be the clue to this mystery of sub-atomic sonic vibrations?

*end evolution*
*start other topics*
Who here believes that they are a spiritual being?

@Stefan. yep.
Salvation is not through works, but through the blood.
Faith is through works. Many times people confuse the two, eventhough they are clearly seperated. Many people may believe in God, and do things in His name. That will not mean they have the salvation that He promises.

@Elvain
We are as animals as He is human... aren't we? Almost the same, but not exactly the same(physically really very very close, but there is SOMETHIG what differs), don't you think? can you agree? (trying to find common agreement)
I'm going to point you towards Genesis. Adam was created from the earth. We were created from the same materials as the animals and plants. So we have mortal bodies of clay. The difference is that God breathed life into us. This is the spiritual part of us. This part lives on, forever.

:cheers:

PS. I'd recommend books on Intelligent Design, if you are interested in the scientific proof against an unintelligent evolutionary existence.

[Sir Turylon]

?

what do you mean end of harmony? Is it not alright for somebody to post his own views if they contradict with somebody elses? No offense should be taken when somebody posts something that you do not believe in. Harmonious balance comes from people discussing a topic with civility, not from compromising your own beliefs in order to reach a middle agreement. I'm not going to play diplomat with my beliefs. There is no way possible for someone to change my mind, so I do not take offense when someone posts a contradicting statement. My faith and beliefs do not originate from what I have learned, but from what I know in my spirit.

Do not take offense when someone states a belief opposite of your own. Do not think harmony has ended when there was no harmony to begin with. As long as you remain tolerant of others, there will be no need for a central belief. Right mr Webmaster?


*edit* lol, you deleted your post elvain.. why?*edit*

[Stefan]

micro evolution can be proven and is supported by christians, I believe you are talking about macro evolution.

[lurking horror]

And that is what evolution truely is, it is a conjecture about existence. When you try to reveal it asa theory, evolutionists become inflamed. How dare you question their superiorty in the matter of existence. Evolution cannot be wrong, is their whining cry.

Could you reign it in a bit please? There is no need to be antagonistic about this.

They never question their own theory, for they know it will collapse.

Scientists question the principles behind evolution all the time. It is accepted that it is an incomplete science, hence the definition of "theory".

Now, I've studied both theories for decades... literarly, decades. (like 14-16 years) I've seen the evidence that evolutionists present, and it does not add up.

Please clarify. How? How does evolution not hold up? If you are going to make these allegations you should support them.

In a society where equality is suppose to rule, how can students really get a quality education when they are force-fed only ONE side of such an important issue like existence?

Apparently, even religious minded people cannot agree on many of these issues. Simply look at this thread for evidence in that regard. What you must consider is that evolution is taught as a theory. Is religion also taught as a theory?

I do not know if anyone here would know about it, but there was a trial about evolution in schools. It was popularly called the Scopes monkey trial. In the trial, the advocate for evolution wanted the theory to be introduced as an alternative to creationism. He won the case. Fast-forward 90+ years and you will not see creation taught in any school in this country. Students are FORCED to sit in a biology class and listen to a "scientist" ramble on about an unproven theory. When creationism is brought up, it is mocked as a "anti-scientific theory." Well, let's take a look at what evolution really is.

Okay. Lets. Now what is it?

One thing that really surprises me is how humanists claim evolution as their religion. (you can search for this on their website... it's there) Evolution as a religion? How?

Agreed. Evolution is not a religion in the slightest. The two are completely different animals. Likely, those individuals were speaking in in way of a loose analogy. But who can say for certain.

Let's look at some facts of both. Evolution and Creation are both not proven by the scientific method. Since we cannot test either, neither will become a scientific law. Evolution denies that God had anything to do with life. To go even further, evolution denies the existence of a higher power.

Why? Why could a higher power not have been involved in evolution? I see nothing that is particularly contradictory here. Perhaps there is with your specific beliefs, but why couldn't a god be responsible for evolution?

This is seen in the theory of an ever-expanding and contracting universe which recycles itself ever few quadrillion centuries. Evolution denies the spiritual existence of mankind. We are not spiritual beings for we evolved from amoebas.

Again, why? Because your bible does not agree with it? On the subject of spirituality, I believe that faith is a required component.

This also points to an atheistic approach to our existence. Evolution also implies that there is not moral standard for us to live by.

Do your moral beliefs come solely from your faith in your religion?

Since homo sapiens are merely evolved apes, we can not think of ourselves as being greater than the animals. This leads us into farsicle saying, "it's just our animal nature."

I am not religious, yet I have morals. I believe myself to be an animal, yet I believe that does not make me synonymous with a monkey. Just as a monkey is not synonomous with a cat. We have abilities that no other animal possesses. And there are some animals that have abilities unique to them as well. However, our unique abilities allow us to rise above instinct.

Now, since evolution is more of a religious theory on existence,

Okay, earlier in this same post you seemed to disagree with the concept that evolution is a religion. Could you clarify please?

why is it not opposed under "seperation of church and state?"

Because it is no more a religion than the theories of the inner workings of a black hole. It is not organized or institutionalized and it is not a matter of worship.

One simple reason. Those who oppose everything about creation and other Judeo-Christian teachings being allowed in schools, do not hold the same intolerance for their own beliefs.

If we were to teach creation theory in school, which version would we teach? What religion would we favor?

This is how the schools in America are filled with condoms, evolution, pregnant teenagers, profanity, violence, and outright stupidity. (if you wish to look into it, do some research on the decline of public schools from 1962 to today)

Actually, poor economic conditions play a very strong part in this matter. The percentage of Americans that live in poverty has greatly increased since 1962.

Right now, the last bastion of education is the private schools. This is also why private schools are CONSISTENTLY scoring double digits higher on knowledge and apptitude testing.

And most people cannot afford a private school. And if all parents did send their children to private schools, the schools would be flooded and would quickly become very similar to the public schools.

Back to evolution.... Charles Darwin was right! Natural selection does exist. Survival of the fittest does imply to our existence. But is it an evolutionary process? Of course not. If natural selection proves evolution, then so does any other form of seperating the best from the worst at something. Evolution, by its nature, would never be able to exist. Since everything needs to be constantly changing, there would be constant factors. When was the last time you sprouted wings? Humans, by nature, do not adapt themselves to their environment. We adapt our environment to ourselves. This is seen over 6-7000 years.

You are on the wrong scale here. Try 600,000 to 700,000 years. On that scale, we have adapted to our environment.

We have "evolved" our methods of adapting our environment through invention. When was the last time you went snorkling? Did you use a oxygen tank and breathing aparatus, or did you grow gills?

I'm sorry, but this point you are making here is simply not realistic. Evolution is a very slow process. So of course no one simply grows gills.

Humans are not unique in their adpation of their environment, for even the simplest bird builds a nest somewhere. Wait... I think we just hit on something.... call it an evolutionary breakthrough. All of the fauna on the Earth adapts their environment! Let's take a look at that. Can anyone think of an animal that evolves themselve when they move to a new environment? (note: chameleons and other such animals do not count.)

Everything. By the theory of evolution, everything has evolved. But you imply that evolution is a conscious and abrupt act. It's on the million year scale. If you want to criticize evolution than criticize it within the framework of it's theory. On the millions of years scale, almost every animal on the planet has evolved.

[Stefan]

Could you reign it in a bit please? There is no need to be antagonistic about this.



Scientists question the principles behind evolution all the time. It is accepted that it is an incomplete science, hence the definition of "theory".



Please clarify. How? How does evolution not hold up? If you are going to make these allegations you should support them.



Apparently, even religious minded people cannot agree on many of these issues. Simply look at this thread for evidence in that regard. What you must consider is that evolution is taught as a theory. Is religion also taught as a theory?



Okay. Lets. Now what is it?



Agreed. Evolution is not a religion in the slightest. The two are completely different animals. Likely, those individuals were speaking in in way of a loose analogy. But who can say for certain.



Why? Why could a higher power not have been involved in evolution? I see nothing that is particularly contradictory here. Perhaps there is with your specific beliefs, but why couldn't a god be responsible for evolution?



Again, why? Because your bible does not agree with it? On the subject of spirituality, I believe that faith is a required component.



Do your moral beliefs come solely from your faith in your religion?



I am not religious, yet I have morals. I believe myself to be an animal, yet I believe that does not make me synonymous with a monkey. Just as a monkey is not synonomous with a cat. We have abilities that no other animal possesses. And there are some animals that have abilities unique to them as well. However, our unique abilities allow us to rise above instinct.



Okay, earlier in this same post you seemed to disagree with the concept that evolution is a religion. Could you clarify please?



Because it is no more a religion than the theories of the inner workings of a black hole. It is not organized or institutionalized and it is not a matter of worship.



If we were to teach creation theory in school, which version would we teach? What religion would we favor?



Actually, poor economic conditions play a very strong part in this matter. The percentage of Americans that live in poverty has greatly increased since 1962.



And most people cannot afford a private school. And if all parents did send their children to private schools, the schools would be flooded and would quickly become very similar to the public schools.



You are on the wrong scale here. Try 600,000 to 700,000 years. On that scale, we have adapted to our environment.



I'm sorry, but this point you are making here is simply not realistic. Evolution is a very slow process. So of course no one simply grows gills.



Everything. By the theory of evolution, everything has evolved. But you imply that evolution is a conscious and abrupt act. It's on the million year scale. If you want to criticize evolution than criticize it within the framework of it's theory. On the millions of years scale, almost every animal on the planet has evolved.


You can believe in evolution and beleive in some form of God. However it is impossible to believe in evolution and believe in the christian God and our perspective on man.With evolution man is just a smart animal and Sin doesnt really exist (no more then sin exists in say a monkey) and without a sin whats the point of Jesus Christ. im not sure about the age of the earth issue.

Perhaps God created everything and over the course of history we had various changes between all sorts of species, pershaps various hybrids formed and others died off. We can never know for sure.

Check dr hovinds creation science website. it has some interesting discussion on the evolution issue.
http://www.drdino.com/index.jsp

[Hector]

well i was talking partly about evolution but there are more books that contain information like Torah and Quran


but Bible doesnt contain any information about the American continent at all or about China if i am not mistaken so thats why i said everyone has their opinion


Stefan sins dont have anything to do with being human orso when u are just a born baby u cant commit sins to because u dont have the abilty to figure what is right and what is wrong


it has to do with knowledge and if u watch the nature everything is in a circle animals dont commit sins they just do what has to be done

[lurking horror]

Perhaps God created everything and over the course of history we had various changes between all sorts of species, pershaps various hybrids formed and others died off. We can never know for sure.

Well, perhaps we will find definitive answers when we die. And I mean that in a positive manner. Not in the somewhat morbid manner that it sounds. :)

Check dr hovinds creation science website. it has some interesting discussion on the evolution issue.

I've read some so far. Mostly on the "Gap" theory. Something that I am unfamilair with. Thank you for providing the link.

Stefan sins dont have anything to do with being human orso when u are just a born baby u cant commit sins to because u dont have the abilty to figure what is right and what is wrong

If I understand correctly, doesn't the concept of Original Sin imply that we are born into sin ? Or that we are creatures of sin by nature? Or am I mixing up my belief systems here? :bconfused

Perhaps I should attempt to read more of the links Stefan has provided before continuing. There is quite a bit of information to digest all at once. :)

[Stefan]

If I understand correctly, doesn't the concept of Original Sin imply that we are born into sin ? Or that we are creatures of sin by nature? Or am I mixing up my belief systems here? :bconfused

Perhaps I should attempt to read more of the links Stefan has provided before continuing. There is quite a bit of information to digest all at once. :)


Hector is a muslim, im assuming they (or at least him in particular) have a different view on original sin and sin in general.

Christians believe that orginal sin implys that we are born sinners (or at least we are born with the potiential to sin, not completely sure). Basically the idea is that every human is a sinner.

[Elvain]

There is no way possible for someone to change my mind, so I do not take offense when someone posts a contradicting statement.
Don't be curious why is everybody in argue with you. If there is no way to change your mind, there is no need to discuss. If I haven't known you, I would understand those words to be your confession of close-mindness

My faith and beliefs do not originate from what I have learned, but from what I know in my spirit.

Can you give me a proof that you knew in your spirit that God created you, that Jesus sacrifised to save us BEFORE you have learned about it? :)
*edit* lol, you deleted your post elvain.. why?*edit*
I deleted joke which was understood seriously, that's the reason :yawn:

[Sir Turylon]

Like to start this out with a direct outreach. Post your beliefs before you use quotes from others. And try not to say things like.. "You are wrong on this..." Because to say you are right and I am wrong is not a nice way to start a discussion. Simply state what you believe, then say what you do not believe from the opposing side. I'm interested in what Islam says about our existence and the existence of sin. Hector, would you be so kind as to give a breif synopsis of it?

You are on the wrong scale here. Try 600,000 to 700,000 years. On that scale, we have adapted to our environment.


where is the evidence that man has existed for that long? I have never heard or seen of any evidence that states humans have been around for more than 10,000 years. I have, however, seen evidence using extrapolation which shows that the Earth cannot be millions of years old. This is proven by the magnetic field which surrounds us. It has gradually decaded over the years, and fitting it to a curve shows that the earth would not existed roughly 10,000 years ago. I'll provide link after I find the info on this.

Carbon dating cannot prove how old things really are. Do you know how they do it? They take normal carbon, and fit it to an extrapolation curve. By using an equation to reverse the amount of carbon left in an item, they conjecture about the length of time that item has existed. How can the be positive of how much carbon was in the item to begin with? The simple fact is they cannot.


Actually, poor economic conditions play a very strong part in this matter.
actually, poor economic conditions do not play a role in what a school teaches. Curriculum is set by the boards over those schools. They decide what should and should not be taught. And for the past 42 years, it has been evolution, promiscuity, teenage sexual exploration, and do what you want attitude. Poor economic conditions only factor in how much funding those schools recieve.

Don't be curious why is everybody in argue with you. If there is no way to change your mind, there is no need to discuss. If I haven't known you, I would understand those words to be your confession of close-mindness

Hehe, I am not curious to why people are trying to debunk (prove wrong) my faith and beliefs. I do strive to understand more of the opposing arguements. So if you, who do not share my beliefs, will please lay out why you do not it would be a great discussion. (especially on where you learned your belief on how we came into existence, and why we exist.) No need to go straight to the quote Turylon and respond method of discussion. Lay out your own views, then we can compare and contrast the two. Possibly even come to a greater understanding of both sides. Sounds reasonable, no?

Scientists question the principles behind evolution all the time. It is accepted that it is an incomplete science, hence the definition of "theory".
I realize that some scientists are questioning evolution. Usually, we call them intelligent design believers. I have yet to see one staunch believer in evolution admit that his theory is not a law. I have only seen intolerance to Creationism from the evolutionists. This intolerance rears its ugly head when we discuss evolution vs creation in school. Like you pointed out Lurker, slyly at that, not only do Christians and Jews believe in creation. Native American tribes believe in creation, as do the Japanese religions, as well as the Chinese, Korean, African, Indian, South American, and mainly every great empire throughout the years. Evolution is a very new and young theory, when contrasted with the other existence theories. Even the ancient Polythiestic religions agree with a intelligent creator theory.

@Stefan.
Micro as in.. selective survival? or Micro as in... a man slowly growing taller over time? There is only one part of evolution which I'd agree with, and it really is not evolution. That part is natural selection. Remember, mutations and other such abnormalities are not a form of evolution. Evolution is the gradually changing of a species entire genome into another form. So far, no proof of any such radical changes has been found. All we have are whole genomes, with conjectured and stylized drawings of what the "links" would look like. Until there is proof of such "in-between" genomes, evolution will never feasibly accurate. Is this to say that evolution does not fit into creation? yes. Does this mean that evolution cannot be adapted to creation? no. Remember, creation was over 7 days, but we have no way of knowing if those 7 days were earth days or years.

Why and how do I come to my beliefs? The same as any of you, actually. I was raised in a house which taught one set of beliefs, just as 99% of all people are. I accepted them when I was a child, and began to grow in understanding of them. Then, it happened. As all of us do, we test our beliefs and faiths. I tried to disprove what I believed in. I became skeptical of all that I was taught. And as surely as a stone can survive a fire, so did my faith and values. I tested my very spiritual existence for years, in actuality. I even went as far as trying to reason matters with the intellect I had gained. I failed miserably, and that is when it hit me. I am too simple of a being to even begin to comprehend the existence of everything. Even if I had read every book, every philosophy, every theory about how we came to be and why we are here, there is no way I could understand it. This is the proof of why there must be a God. We are too limited as a species to even comprehend how vast the universe is, or how the universe came to be. We can speculate, and define theories, but those theories will never be proven. I bet none of us could even begin to understand how trees came into existence. Evolution is a great theory if you want to deny the existence of God, but it can not tell us how we came into existence. Where am I going with this? Have you ever stopped to truely ponder your own existence? I bet each of us have at least once in our lives. To me, once I acknowledged the existence of God, my own existence made sense. For me, as well as my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ, the question of why we exist is no longer unsolved. The matter of how we came to be is no longer a matter of scientific conjecture, but of a realistic understanding.

Can you give me a proof that you knew in your spirit that God created you, that Jesus sacrifised to save us BEFORE you have learned about it?
Yes, because it takes the faith of a child to believe in God. Eventhough I could not read or write, I knew that I existed because of a loving God. I have no journal to prove this. I did not write down philosophical ideas when I was 3. (I was 3 years old when I accepted Christ. So I like to say I was dead for three years, but have been alive for 22. :go: ) As for now? I cannot explain how I know without a shadow of a doubt that He does exist. Call it a stirring in my spirit. Call it a yearning to go closer to Him. Think of it as a magnet. God is the positive, and I am the negative. I am drawn to Him, just as the negative pole is drawn to the positive. It is not as simple as this though. Every person, regardless of what they believe, is drawn to Him. It is only when they harden their hearts and deny the Holy Spirit, when they no longer feel that yearning for Him.

Nobody can say they knew about Christ's sacrifice for us before they heard the gospel. That is a strange question to ask. It would be like me asking you if you knew there was no God before you were taught there was no God.

Did you know you were an ape before the schools taught you? When did you first learn of how you came into existence? Have you changed your mind since? If so, why? If not, what has convinced you that you are an evolved ape?

Food for thought: Perhaps all this talk about how those who believe in God are close-minded, is really an admittance that those who do not believe in Him have closed off their own minds to His existence. As lurker said, we will find out in the end. The question is, are you sure you will like the answer? As for me, I'm looking forward to riding back on that white horse with the lover of my soul, Jesus Christ.

:cheers: and may God bless.

*note: the above was the sanctioned beliefs and opinions of myself*

[lurking horror]

Like to start this out with a direct outreach. Post your beliefs before you use quotes from others. And try not to say things like.. "You are wrong on this..." Because to say you are right and I am wrong is not a nice way to start a discussion.

Not that I disagree with you, but did this happen? I may have missed it.

Simply state what you believe, then say what you do not believe from the opposing side.

This I do disagree with. The nature of this discussion in no way shape or form should be limited to two opposing sides. For example, Stefan has provided me with several links that are filled with information that is new to me. I am taking some time to read and digest this information. Now, on the surface, I may appear to disagree with the belief in creation. But it simply appears that way because I am a believer in evolution. From my perspective, the belief in one is not necessarily exclusive of the other. I see no reason as to why a higher power could not be involved in evolution. Look at Stephen Hawking's explanation about the research of the unified field theory. He has stated, that his mind at least, the confirmation of these theories would be proof of the existence of God.

In short, I see nothing in these scientific theories that is in opposition of a belief in a higher power. It may be that these theories conflict with your religion, but I am not educated enough in your beliefs to tell you why you (or anyone who shares similar beliefs) are wrong.

What I will take issue with is dismissal of ANY belief based on erroneous information. You cannot point to mankind's lack of evolution in the last 6000 years and say that this is proof that evolution theory is flawed. Evolution theory works on a much larger time frame than what you are accounting for. Now, I realize you take issue with the time frame in general. And if you wish to dispute the validity of evolution based on your opinions that the earth could not be millions of years old, than feel free. That is a valid line of argument, but it is also a completly different aspect of the debate. But dismissing evolution as unworkable because there is no evidence of it working in a manner that is inconsistant with the theory itself, is not a valid argument. That is the part of your argument that I was disputing.

where is the evidence that man has existed for that long?

See above. Whether or not man has existed this long is a separate part of the argument. The theory of evolution assumes that the earth is millions and millions of years old. So if you are disputing the validity of the theory, do so within the framework of the theory. Otherwise you are not making an applicable point.

I have never heard or seen of any evidence that states humans have been around for more than 10,000 years.

If we are discussing the theory of evolution, than mankind's ancestors stretch back for millions of years.

actually, poor economic conditions do not play a role in what a school teaches.

Again, you are missing the point. I am not arguing in this instance that poor economic conditions have anything to do with curriculum, I am arguing quite clearly here that there are more events than the lack of bible study in the schools to explain the increased problems. Nowhere did I claim that poverty is responsible for what is being taught.

Take another look at the exchange:

This is how the schools in America are filled with condoms, evolution, pregnant teenagers, profanity, violence, and outright stupidity. (if you wish to look into it, do some research on the decline of public schools from 1962 to today)

Actually, poor economic conditions play a very strong part in this matter. The percentage of Americans that live in poverty has greatly increased since 1962.

Why is it a certainty that the lack of creation theory being taught in schools is responsible for this theoretical moral decline?

Curriculum is set by the boards over those schools. They decide what should and should not be taught. And for the past 42 years, it has been evolution, promiscuity, teenage sexual exploration, and do what you want attitude. Poor economic conditions only factor in how much funding those schools recieve.

What school is teaching promiscuity specifically?

Lay out your own views, then we can compare and contrast the two. Possibly even come to a greater understanding of both sides. Sounds reasonable, no?

But you have already stated that you will not change your mind in these matters.

I realize that some scientists are questioning evolution.

Again you are missing the point. I doubt there is a single scientist on the planet that would argue that the theory of evolution is 100% solid. Like any scientific theory it is something that is a matter of extrapolation of currently held data. As we are constantly searching for new data, the theory must remain flexible. Subsequently, scientists are constantly challeging their own theories in search of the ultimate truth.

I have only seen intolerance to Creationism from the evolutionists. This intolerance rears its ugly head when we discuss evolution vs creation in school. Like you pointed out Lurker, slyly at that, not only do Christians and Jews believe in creation. Native American tribes believe in creation, as do the Japanese religions, as well as the Chinese, Korean, African, Indian, South American, and mainly every great empire throughout the years. Evolution is a very new and young theory, when contrasted with the other existence theories. Even the ancient Polythiestic religions agree with a intelligent creator theory.

So what creation theory would you see taught in school? All of them would be impractical.

As lurker said, we will find out in the end. The question is, are you sure you will like the answer?

I'm sure I will be quite content with the decisions I have made in life. If another being chooses to judge me negatively simply because of my set of beliefs, that's just fine. I will happily disagree with them.

[Stefan]

@Stefan.
Micro as in.. selective survival? or Micro as in... a man slowly growing taller over time? There is only one part of evolution which I'd agree with, and it really is not evolution. That part is natural selection. Remember, mutations and other such abnormalities are not a form of evolution. Evolution is the gradually changing of a species entire genome into another form. So far, no proof of any such radical changes has been found. All we have are whole genomes, with conjectured and stylized drawings of what the "links" would look like. Until there is proof of such "in-between" genomes, evolution will never feasibly accurate. Is this to say that evolution does not fit into creation? yes. Does this mean that evolution cannot be adapted to creation? no. Remember, creation was over 7 days, but we have no way of knowing if those 7 days were earth days or years.

Why and how do I come to my beliefs? The same as any of you, actually. I was raised in a house which taught one set of beliefs, just as 99% of all people are. I accepted them when I was a child, and began to grow in understanding of them. Then, it happened. As all of us do, we test our beliefs and faiths. I tried to disprove what I believed in. I became skeptical of all that I was taught. And as surely as a stone can survive a fire, so did my faith and values. I tested my very spiritual existence for years, in actuality. I even went as far as trying to reason matters with the intellect I had gained. I failed miserably, and that is when it hit me. I am too simple of a being to even begin to comprehend the existence of everything. Even if I had read every book, every philosophy, every theory about how we came to be and why we are here, there is no way I could understand it. This is the proof of why there must be a God. We are too limited as a species to even comprehend how vast the universe is, or how the universe came to be. We can speculate, and define theories, but those theories will never be proven. I bet none of us could even begin to understand how trees came into existence. Evolution is a great theory if you want to deny the existence of God, but it can not tell us how we came into existence. Where am I going with this? Have you ever stopped to truely ponder your own existence? I bet each of us have at least once in our lives. To me, once I acknowledged the existence of God, my own existence made sense. For me, as well as my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ, the question of why we exist is no longer unsolved. The matter of how we came to be is no longer a matter of scientific conjecture, but of a realistic understanding.


Yes, because it takes the faith of a child to believe in God. Eventhough I could not read or write, I knew that I existed because of a loving God. I have no journal to prove this. I did not write down philosophical ideas when I was 3. (I was 3 years old when I accepted Christ. So I like to say I was dead for three years, but have been alive for 22. :go: ) As for now? I cannot explain how I know without a shadow of a doubt that He does exist. Call it a stirring in my spirit. Call it a yearning to go closer to Him. Think of it as a magnet. God is the positive, and I am the negative. I am drawn to Him, just as the negative pole is drawn to the positive. It is not as simple as this though. Every person, regardless of what they believe, is drawn to Him. It is only when they harden their hearts and deny the Holy Spirit, when they no longer feel that yearning for Him.

Nobody can say they knew about Christ's sacrifice for us before they heard the gospel. That is a strange question to ask. It would be like me asking you if you knew there was no God before you were taught there was no God.

Did you know you were an ape before the schools taught you? When did you first learn of how you came into existence? Have you changed your mind since? If so, why? If not, what has convinced you that you are an evolved ape?

Food for thought: Perhaps all this talk about how those who believe in God are close-minded, is really an admittance that those who do not believe in Him have closed off their own minds to His existence. As lurker said, we will find out in the end. The question is, are you sure you will like the answer? As for me, I'm looking forward to riding back on that white horse with the lover of my soul, Jesus Christ.

:cheers: and may God bless.

*note: the above was the sanctioned beliefs and opinions of myself*
Micro evolution involves changes within kinds. Eg a bacteria developing an immunity, man progressively getting taller etc. Micro evolution is the only type that has been observed.

the links i provided in previous posts discuss such issues.

[Sir Turylon]

So what creation theory would you see taught in school?
Intelligent design. It would not be religious in any way, accept in the teaching of a higher intelligence. Nothing about aliens coming down here... that's just plain silly.

Aye, discussions are multi-faceted. I was making a extemporaneous remark about intolerance being created when people use "you are wrong about this..." in their posts.

(gonna start using big words, once in a while)

Aye stefan, but such things are usually relegated to mutation cycles. And yes, those are the only proven forms of "evolving species." What troubles me the most is the almost zealous support for macro evolution solely because it removes any acceptance of an intelligent designer. Which is troubling in science, since science is supposed to be objective and not fanatical.

If we are discussing the theory of evolution, than mankind's ancestors stretch back for millions of years.

Yes, I am quite aware of the pre-historic time periods. One thing that befuddles me is the lack of evidence which supports these periods. I'll post links when I get them.

Intelligent Design Network (http://www.intelligentdesignnetwork.org/)
some interesting publications are on there.
trouble with the moth story (http://www.origins.org/articles/wells_pepmoth.html)

@the gap theory.
I actually somewhat support the gap theory.

[Elvain]

@Tury
Excuse me? Can 3 year old child decide himself if accept Christ or not? Maybwe you were genious 3 year old child, but all other only accept what is told to them. Even 6 year old children at school don't think much about what they learn at school...

You didn't accept Jesus, he was given to you, as evolition theory was given to me. I follow my spiritual feelings in a same way like you I suppose. But we were both born into different worlds. You into holy world, which has clear explanation of all in the Bible. You were educated in world of the Bible where are no shadows, where everything is clear.
I was born and educated in much more complicated world where is no universal explanation and where many things can't be explained perfectly because of limited human cognition.
You are much more confident about your thoughts and believes, you are much more sure about it. I can never be sure that my acts are good or not, I only can be sure if I behave wrong. You can be sure your values are (the only?) right values, I can't be sure.

I won't say that you are wrong and I am right, I can never be sure enough to say that. I will say only this: I may be wrong, you may be wrong. The difference is that if I am wrong, I am ready to stand it. What would you do if one convinces you that you lived in a lie for 22 years?(just hypoteticaly, of course. I know that NOONE CAN convince you that you live in a lie. You will never change your mind, as you said, will you? How can you be sure of that? Did somebody told you? do you feel it? Do you know that sometimes when you feel something, you feel it in other -worse- way than you would see after some time, after seing it from different point than only your feelings).

But keep your confidence, I will keep my unsurness. After you (and people you like) die, you will come to heaven, I don't know what will hapen to me nor people I like. But it's not so important. The only what is important to me, is to live good life, good for me and all people around me. And because I don't want to break anybody's faith, this is (hopefully) my last post in this thread.

May your gods bless you all...christians, muslims, hinduists, positivists, scientists, communists, nazis, jews, pagans...I hope it will give you better life and behaviour towards all other people than I have.

[lurking horror]

Intelligent design. It would not be religious in any way, accept in the teaching of a higher intelligence. Nothing about aliens coming down here... that's just plain silly

Let's be fair. Some people would say the exact same thing about your beliefs as you would about the alien visitation idea. If we are to accept individual and personal belief as a matter of faith, why would you draw a line at what is acceptable and what is not?

Aye stefan, but such things are usually relegated to mutation cycles. And yes, those are the only proven forms of "evolving species." What troubles me the most is the almost zealous support for macro evolution solely because it removes any acceptance of an intelligent designer. Which is troubling in science, since science is supposed to be objective and not fanatical.

True. And of course there are fanatical scientists out there. But, as a whole, which set of beliefs here is typically assigned the stereotype of zealous fanaticism?

Furthermore, I have seen little evidence that the theories of evolution remove all possibility of higher power. I covered this quite a bit in a few of my posts already. It may be that evolutionary theories do not jibe with your beliefs in a higher power, but I see no reason to claim that the theories eliminate any and all such possibilities.

Yes, I am quite aware of the pre-historic time periods. One thing that befuddles me is the lack of evidence which supports these periods. I'll post links when I get them.

Feel free, but what you must consider is that there is a lack of evidence to support the Christian beliefs as well. I believe that is why we have moved the examination of these events into the designation of "faith". As there are difficulties in either side presenting their beliefs as indisputable fact, it becomes pointless to point to one and designate it as unlikely due to the lack of said indisputable fact.

It seems to me that if some middle ground is to be met, the most likely would be for us to accept that we, as humanity, understand neither science nor God and the history of a given religion (in any permutation) perfectly. Scientific theory dictates, by definition alone, that our understanding of a given theory is incomplete. Subsequently, we must keep our minds open to new and contrary data. Theory is not fact. But religious faith is not fact either. Otherwise it would not be a matter of faith.

[Sir Turylon]

@Elvain.

Yes, a three year old can accept Christ. A three year old child can also accept the love of their mother and father. It takes this simple of an acceptance to believe in God and Christ's sacrifice. It seems strange that such a young child can do such an incredible thing. This is probably due to all of the knowledge and understanding that we have gone through. The main point is this though. We do not accept Christ with our minds, but with our hearts. That is the key thing to remember. Although our minds guide what we sense and do, our hearts guide us in matters of morality and beliefs.

You will never change your mind, as you said, will you? How can you be sure of that? Did somebody told you? do you feel it? Do you know that sometimes when you feel something, you feel it in other -worse- way than you would see after some time, after seing it from different point than only your feelings).

Not a matter of changing my mind, but rather a changing of my heart and spirit are telling me. This can never be changed. I change my mind all the time, actually. Today I was going to drink some tea while I responded, but instead I choosed root beer. The mind is easily swayed, but the heart cannot be swayed. You are in complete control of what you believe in your spirit. I think we can agree that man does have some sort of spiritual presence. right?

I like to describe what finding Christ is like with this simple, yet complex, analogy. Imagine you are in a small boat, in the middle of a dark sea. You can see or hear nothing. You feel adrift, lost, and even scaredof what is about to come your way. With Christ, you are not adrift in that sea. Instead, you are standing on a strong foundation of rock, with a lighthouse that lights the entire coastline. You no longer worry what might be coming your way, for nothing can wash you off of the foundation. It is a very comforting feeling indeed. Why would you want to leave the safety of the comforting rock for the insecurity of that small boat?

BTW, I was not 3 when I was baptised. I was much older.

@lurk
Are you aware that archaeology has proven the flood of Noah? Are you also aware that ancient history has proven the factual basis for the Old Testament through the New up till Revelations.

[lurking horror]

Are you aware that archaeology has proven the flood of Noah?

I am aware that there are some attempts at proof, but I am also aware that there is no indisputable evidence available to support the beliefs in a flood of that magnitude.

Are you also aware that ancient history has proven the factual basis for the Old Testament through the New up till Revelations.

No I am not. As I do not have not yet read up on enough information on Christianity to accurately judge what it's basis may be.

[Alex Poff]

The flood of Noah has not been "proven". Post your "proof". There are many scientific theories regarding Noah's flood, but there is no definitive proof. It is statements like this that you make throughout your litany of posts that make me consider you an individual with strong religious beliefs but not one who can exercise any form of "tolerance" towards ideas that do not concur with your own. That being said, that's fine. You can live in your world, and I shall live in mine. Live and let live. Your audacity, however, continues to amaze me.

[Sir Turylon]

The flood of Noah has not been "proven". Post your "proof". There are many scientific theories regarding Noah's flood, but there is no definitive proof. It is statements like this that you make throughout your litany of posts that make me consider you an individual with strong religious beliefs but not one who can exercise any form of "tolerance" towards ideas that do not concur with your own. That being said, that's fine. You can live in your world, and I shall live in mine. Live and let live. Your audacity, however, continues to amaze me.

how... ironic of a reponse. First off you attack my statement that the flood has been proven through archeaological digs, which is widley known... If you want some backup info.. ask nicely.

one source on net (http://www.geocities.com/davidjayjordan/NoahsArkandtheWorldwideFlood.html)
Non Biblical records of a great flood (http://www.halexandria.org/dward193.htm)
Breakdown of some of it (http://www.layevangelism.com/advtxbk/sections/sect-10/sec10-5b.htm)
Another breakdown of the evidence (http://www.calvaryag.org/apologetics/apologetics_11-evidence_flood.htm)

need a few more? or do you wish to go back and insult me as being intolerant of other people's views. FYI, I have yet to say one thing which can be considered intolerant towards evolution believing people.
I must laugh at this statement
There are many scientific theories regarding Noah's flood, but there is no definitive proof.
There are many scientific theories about evolution, but no definitive proof. Yet, I do not call you audaciously intolerant... even if you are intolerant of my views... as you clearly state in your post.

good day. :nono: