The people have spoken...

[Stefan]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Christians#Discrimination_and_perse cution_in_the_Soviet_Union

link regarding soviet union attempting to turn the state into an atheist state. not sure about the validity of the source.Just as theocracys are governments based around a faith, so is communism a government based on the nation having no religious beliefs and motivations.


After the Revolution of 1917, The Bolsheviks undertook a massive program to destroy the great influence the Russian Orthodox Church had on Russian society and to make the state atheist. Thousands of churches were destroyed or converted to other uses, such as warehouses. Monasteries were closed and often converted to prison camps, most notably the Solovetz monastery becoming Solovki concentration camp. Priests and monks were imprisoned or killed systematically. Thousands of lay believers were also imprisoned or executed for the offense of believing in God. These victims are now recognized as the New Martyrs by the Russian Orthodox Church, the old martyrs being the victims of the Roman persecutions. Church property was looted, including the icons and other objects of worship, especially those made of precious metals.

The intense persecution abated during the World War II, at which time Stalin's government actually made some semblance of peace with the church in order to use it as part of its program to inspire Russian patriotic feeling to fight the German invaders. After that, the Soviet government sought to put the church under control by appointing loyal men as priests, allegedly ending up with the entire upper ranks of the church being officers of the KGB.

A concerted effort was made to prevent or disrupt the social gatherings of Christians. Throughout the 1920s and 1930s the celebration of Christmas and the traditional Russian holiday of New Year was prohibited (later on New Year was reinstated as a secular holiday and is now the most significant family holiday in Russia). Gatherings and religious processions were initially prohibited and later on strictly limited and regulated. In later years, a more subtle method of disrupting Christian holidays involved broadcasting very popular movies one after the other on the major holidays when believers are expected to participate in religious processions, especially during the Easter celebration. Apparently, this was intended to keep those, whose faith was uncertain or wavering, in their homes and glued to their TVs.

An intense ideological anti-Christian and anti-religious campaign was carried out throughout the history of the Soviet Union. An extensive education and propaganda campaign was undertaken to convince people, especially the children and youth, not to become believers. The role of the Christian religion and the church was painted in black colors in school textbooks. For instance, much emphasis was placed on the role of the church in such historical horror stories as the Inquisition, persecution of Galileo, Giordano Bruno, and other heretical scientists, and the Crusades. School students were encouraged to taunt and use peer pressure against classmates wearing crosses or otherwise professing their faith. In the 1920s there were many "anti-God" publications and social clubs sponsored by the government, most notably the scathingly satirical "Godless at the Workbench" ("Bezbozhnik u Stanka" in Russian). Later on, these disappeared because a new generation has grown up essentially atheist.

A "scientific" perspective was used to attack religion extensively. The church was falsely portrayed as obscurantist and opposed to the findings of science. Much has been made of alleged Christian belief in the literal Creation account in the book of Genesis which the pro-Darwinian textbooks ridiculed. Interestingly, as part of the anti-foreign and anti-capitalist propaganda, a not-so-subtle effort was made, especially in the 1920s and 1930s to imprint in the minds of the people an image of the West as dominated by the anti-scientific ignorance of the church, as opposed to the scientifically "progressive" atheist Soviet state.

In general, the church was portrayed as corrupt, hypocritical, a loyal servant of the reactionary czar, obscurantist, "opium for the people" according to Karl Marx, and otherwise evil. This Communist persecution of the church has proved enormously successful. Within the span of one generation, the traditionally highly devout Russian people have become overwhelmingly atheist. This transformation has been pretty much complete by the 1950s. As such, it counts as one of the greatest and the most successful persecutions Christianity has ever experienced, on par only with the destruction of Christianity in the Middle East, North Africa, and Asia Minor by the Islamic and Turkish conquests.

After the fall of the Soviet Union, the government of Russia openly embraced the Russian Orthodox Church, and there was a reputed renaissance in the number of the faithful in Russia. As of 2004 it is generally noted, however, that whereas a very large percent of Russians today identify themselves as believers and members of the church (up from a very small group in the Soviet days), still relatively few of them actually attend church regularly, read the Bible, or otherwise take their communion with the church seriously. For many, it seems, faith has become a matter of personal identification and readiness to baptize their children or have church marriage and burial ceremonies, and not much else. This is a clear testimony to the completeness and the long term success of the Communist persecution of the Christianity in Russia.

Richard Wurmbrand, author of Tortured for Christ described the systematic persecution of Christians in one East Bloc nation. Many Christian believers in the Soviet Union have told of being imprisoned for no other reason than believing in God - a fate shared no less by Jewish believers. Many have recently been canonized as saints following their death at the hands of Soviet authorities; they are collectively referred to in the Orthodox church as the "new martyrs". (See also Enemy of the people, Gulag, Alexander Solzhenitsyn, Varlam Shalamov)

[Stefan]

Sir Turylon:

So the Nazi's were atheists? Really? Are you sure?

http://www.nobeliefs.com/nazis.htm




yes, nazis believed in very traditional CATHOLIC values, this includes eradication of "heretics".


I think "Sir Turylon" is simply trying to say that war is based more on secualr views and motives then on religious ones. As i mentioned before Religion is just the "icing on the cake" of any major war. I suppose you could even argue that the crusades were more about the control of trade and resources in the middleast rather then merely a liberation of the holy land.

few more links:
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=19069
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2001/010/25.62.html

Regarding North Korea:
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/kn.html
"traditionally Buddhist and Confucianist, some Christian and syncretic Chondogyo (Religion of the Heavenly Way)
note: autonomous religious activities now almost nonexistent; government-sponsored religious groups exist to provide illusion of religious freedom "

http://www.lonelyplanet.com/destinations/north_east_asia/north_korea/
"Religion: All religion has been effectively prohibited since the 1950s"

[Hector]

yes, nazis believed in very traditional CATHOLIC values, this includes eradication of "heretics".


I think "Sir Turylon" is simply trying to say that war is based more on secualr views and motives then on religious ones. As i mentioned before Religion is just the "icing on the cake" of any major war. I suppose you could even argue that the crusades were more about the control of trade and resources in the middleast rather then merely a liberation of the holy land.



i agree people are just misusing religion to their benefits

[Sir Turylon]

nice post Stefan.

Nazism, Communism, Socialism... they all have one common belief. Not everyone is equal. Socialists look to rule "the lower classes" with their "elitist doctrine." Anything that speaks about freedom from state tyranny is forced out of those societies. They cannot stand to hae a bunch of people running around saying that there is a God and He is mightier than the government.

Pointing to Kerry's support on this issue is irrelevant and proves nothing.

I'll quote Kerry. "Mr President, faith without works is dead." (paraphrased)

Kerry himself has said for us to look at the works of the man to judge what he will do. He then goes on and uses fancy Boston rhetoric to have people forget what he has done himself.

Do you have a realistic solution as to how you would avoid such a thing? If you do, yuou have answers that no one has been able to find.

First: rule abortion to be murder, for it truely is murder based on scientific facts. You cannot create life from death unless you are God. The child was alive when the two parts were in the man and woman, and they remain alive until birth.
Second: install ultrasounds in every single pregnancy clinic in America and make them free for new mothers. This will show them a picture of the LIVING being inside of them.
Third: Create a new adoption policy that will lessen the complications of adoption.
Fourth: Throw out any and all teaching of "humans are animals" and reinstate the teaching of 'sacred life" as an option in schools. Too long have the schools taught only one side of the issues. Where is the tolerance for Christian teachings and values in our schools?
Fifth: Restructure the department of HHS so that Abstinence is the mandate and "free love" is thrown into history with the rest of the 1960s.

(vote Turylon in '08 )


Who are you to simplify such a complex issue.
I see things in black and white. Right and wrong. Good and evil. I do not cloud issues with grey areas. Morality is not a matter for compromise.

So what? Christianity has an incredibly violent past. It's way up there in the list of violent religions.
NO religion should be singled out for it's violent past.

*refrains from the comment on a type of open shoe*

@William.
The KKK was democratic baptists. They were not, I repeat not, real Christians.

your other examples were of Governmental actions... Can you find me one example where a non-denominational church went out and killed innocent civilians? Remember, it has to be sponsered by the church... not one person.

@lurker
Regardless of what your individual definition is, unless it is simply limited to a terrorist being defined as "someone from Iraq", then my intial point in this matter stands.


So.. Al Zarqawi and the others that are kidnaping and beheading people are not terrorists then. Who was defining "anyone in Iraq" as a terrorist? You are trying to turn this into.. "America is exterminating Iraq muslims like Hitler did to European jews." Stop the clumping of innocent Iraqis with the terrorists/insurgents.

It is amazing that you are blind to the insurgents and terrorists who are trying to destabilize Iraq months before they hold an election.

Nice try with that link. The website that Lurker's facts proving Nazism was Christianity are on. (http://www.nobeliefs.com/index.htm) If you do some research you will find out that Hitler tried to become the Holy Roman Emperor. He fancied himself as a God-like figure on earth. The page makes it obviously clear. Hitler tried to use Catholic, Luthern, and Protestant doctrine to "justify" his extermination of the Jews. Does this sound like anything? A nation-state using religion to justify and forward its motives. This is the same that that Constantine did with Christianity in an attempt to unite the crumbling Roman empire. Amazing that you think true Christians are nazis. :nono:

The blind will seek to cover the light. eh Stefan?

[lurking horror]

Sir Turylon: "First: rule abortion to be murder, for it truely is murder based on scientific facts. You cannot create life from death unless you are God. The child was alive when the two parts were in the man and woman, and they remain alive until birth."

A very debatable point. I disagree. Millions disagree. And you have no right to dictate my beliefs.

Sir Turylon: "Second: install ultrasounds in every single pregnancy clinic in America and make them free for new mothers. This will show them a picture of the LIVING being inside of them.

Ultrasounds are already availble for free in many clinics. This was the case when abortion was illegal. It did not help.

Sir Turylon: "Third: Create a new adoption policy that will lessen the complications of adoption."

Adoption is an overly complex procedure. That I agree with.

Sir Turylon: "Fourth: Throw out any and all teaching of "humans are animals" and reinstate the teaching of 'sacred life" as an option in schools. Too long have the schools taught only one side of the issues. Where is the tolerance for Christian teachings and values in our schools?

Sadly for your point here, it flies in the face of all scientific understanding. Human beings are animals. Furthermore, it will be easier to teach that life is sacred when we stop throwing it away in wars.

Sir Turylon: "Fifth: Restructure the department of HHS so that Abstinence is the mandate and "free love" is thrown into history with the rest of the 1960s."

Who are you to dictate how people conduct themselves sexually? Next you'll be going on about the immorality of interracial unions.

Sir Turylon: "I see things in black and white. Right and wrong. Good and evil. I do not cloud issues with grey areas. Morality is not a matter for compromise."

Sadly, for your checkerboard aproach, the world is not carved into easily divisible sections of right and wrong.

Sir Turylon: "*refrains from the comment on a type of open shoe*"

Your point? Islamic faith was singled out on this thread as being particularly violent. Christianity has a violent history. Personally, I do not believe that Christian or Islamic faiths should be singled out in this regard. I was attempting to point out the futility of doing so in regards to Islamic faith by illustrating how easily one can do the same with Christian faith. So what's your particular problem in this instance?

Sir Turylon: "The KKK was democratic baptists. They were not, I repeat not, real Christians."

They followed the teachings of Christ. They were Christians. It's not for you to judge the accuracy of their faith.

Sir Turylon: "your other examples were of Governmental actions... Can you find me one example where a non-denominational church went out and killed innocent civilians? Remember, it has to be sponsered by the church... not one person."

How easily you dismiss crimes commited in the name of your god, but you seem to hold the followers of Islamic faiths to a higher standard then your own.

Sir Turylon: "So.. Al Zarqawi and the others that are kidnaping and beheading people are not terrorists then."

Show me where I said that.

Sir Turylon: " "Who was defining "anyone in Iraq" as a terrorist? You are trying to turn this into.. "America is exterminating Iraq muslims like Hitler did to European jews." Stop the clumping of innocent Iraqis with the terrorists/insurgents."

Are you actually following this thread? I was responding to the following comment:

Cali Knight: "Anguille2 Bush isn't killing muslims, hes killing terrorists"

The point of my response was quite clear. The actions that Bush has taken in Iraq have killed many thousands of Muslims who are not terrorists. Are you seriously suggesting that this is otherwise?

Sir Turylon: "It is amazing that you are blind to the insurgents and terrorists who are trying to destabilize Iraq months before they hold an election."

It's amazing that you are blind to the obvious fact that I am referring to the thousands of innocent civilians who have been caught in the crossfire. I did not claim that there were no terrorists in Iraq. You are attempting to twist my meaning well beyond it's intent and I do not appreciate it.

Sir Turylon: "Nice try with that link. The website that Lurker's facts proving Nazism was Christianity are on."

Not that Nazism was Christianity, but that many Nazi's followed the Christian faith. Seriously, you need to pay attention here.

Sir Turylon: "If you do some research you will find out that Hitler tried to become the Holy Roman Emperor. He fancied himself as a God-like figure on earth. The page makes it obviously clear. Hitler tried to use Catholic, Luthern, and Protestant doctrine to "justify" his extermination of the Jews."

How is this relevant? Hitler was one man. The Nazi's were millions.

Sir Turylon: "Does this sound like anything? A nation-state using religion to justify and forward its motives. This is the same that that Constantine did with Christianity in an attempt to unite the crumbling Roman empire. Amazing that you think true Christians are nazis."

I don't, and I dare you to show me where I said that. There is a MASSIVE difference between suggesting that Nazi's practiced Christianity and suggesting that Christians are Nazi's. Either you are not paying attention or you are purposefully mis interprereting very simple points. Please pay attention.

[Robbie47]

So what? Christianity has an incredibly violent past. It's way up there in the list of violent religions.


Exactly that is the difference: when Moslems talk about the cruisades, they often don't seem to realize that these happend more then 800 years ago. Christianity has changed its face since then. But Islam seems to stay violent. Apart from that, neither the Jews nor the Christians are forcing their religion onto others, no part of the Torah or the Bible would justifie that.
In the Quran however there are plenty of sures that jutify or even encourage the killing of those who have other religions.

[William Blake]

Jeez, thats fun :hello:



Nazism, Communism, Socialism... they all have one common belief. Not everyone is equal. Socialists look to rule "the lower classes" with their "elitist doctrine."


Man, who told you that?!! Socialism and communism are BASED on equality of all people. Read that out loud. They are FOUNDED on idea that all people are equal, so its unfair for some few have "means of production" which allow them to "exploit" common workers. Socialism sees the private property on means of production as a divider which creates classes. And socialism wants to delete all the classes and INEQUALITY by moving such means on production to state ownership.




I see things in black and white. Right and wrong. Good and evil. I do not cloud issues with grey areas. Morality is not a matter for compromise.

Realy? So this is only black and white eh? So you wont fight a war and kill people, right? Its wrong to kill people. How about they invade you home and rape you mother? Still wrong to kill those people or now its ok? Then the colors switch for you? Or they dont, so you'll watch them kill your family and burn you home. Or you gonna preach to them?



The KKK was democratic baptists. They were not, I repeat not, real Christians.

Name, please, who are real and who are "unreal" Christians. And how do you know who are "more real". You know the will and intentions of God to see who is right and who is wrong in his christian faith?



It is amazing that you are blind to the insurgents and terrorists who are trying to destabilize Iraq months before they hold an election.

Yeah, "those terrorists", right. Ok, lets imagine. You live in calm and peace of lets say Alabama. You aint no rich or poor, you live like neighbors do. You go to a church and have some religion you believe in. You have also some "culture" i mean habbits and values that you share with people around you and that defines you as a man. There is a goverment that allows abortions and takes you taxes, you disagree with something and agree with something, but well, its a goverment.

One day. Some guy in lets say Pakistan goes live on CNN and says. Alabama is a land of evil, the shadow empire, because yesterday some guy from alabama (probably), who was chistrian (probably) drove a plane into our national moskue....

And then "smart" bombs fly. Boom boom, Your church is in flames, well "there was an information that it MIGHT be a refuge for a terrorists". Boom boom, some misses, house across a street is in flames, you dont know why. Then you see corpses of people you knew. Then pakistan soldiers come and build an fortified camp on your family field, so you dont have any land to farm anymore.

And then new goverment start to rule, a pakistanian "temporary" one. So all your values are kinda forgoten and they "bring you democracy and freedom of Pakistan type". You dont want to be liberated or change you culture, but they say its "better".

No jobs, no food, humiliation, foreing army, some guys from Pakistan decide what you need to do now.... Deaths all around, bombings from both sides, some "terrorist" and pakistan response who kick civilian butts. You sister went to get fresh water - convoy was ambushed on a street, all they found was her leg, go tell you mother.

AND THEN LOVE THIS pakistan leaders, soldiers and new freedom you got. I dont even mention the sight of brand new oil pamps all other the place then you hospitals has no drugs and the roofs are collapsed. And your pakistan liberators pump your oil to get rich.

How about that? Ah? Oh, you cant imagine that, right. You live in a "land of free and home of a brave" there people were blessed by peace on their lands so they have NO IDEA what war can bring on their homes and how "smart" bombs are. You bombed Yugoslavia - because of some leader you didnt like at the time. So you planes ruined cities, bridges, electrical plans, factories - anything but not that "crazy" leader, so common people suffer while US president can talk for whole 3 minutes about "world as a safer place". Now Iraq is a land of shadow, so US can go and lie to UN and its own people about some "mass destruction weapon WE KNOW THEY HAVE".

Yeah, right. Black and white it is.

PS
About USSR and religion. Dont try to make it communism vs faith. It never was like that. It was a battle for total state contorol. They destroed and submit church as organization, not christianity as religion.

Yes many were killed. But they are not alone. In 30s-40s millions were killed or inprisoned beacause state fought EVERYONE who is not 100% loyal. Peasants who wanted to be farmers, workers who wanted to have commerce, well yea, some priest were amoung them, but they are not alone. Generals and MARSHALS of red army were killed or imprisoned all the time, not just poor monks.

Yes, state promoted atheism. But church and religion was AVALIABLE to people. And not only orthodox. Some parts of USSR were muslims and they had mosks and their priest, some were catholic and had their churches too. Property of a church was taken over at some point and organization power of a church was always an issue, not faith itself.

[the knightly sword]

well i wouldint wanna see bush on the white house he would surely make big mistakes , i think kerry would handle it peace fully but i could never imagine how the world would be if he took command of a super power like america . it really would be chaotic :cool:

[Hector]

Exactly that is the difference: when Moslems talk about the cruisades, they often don't seem to realize that these happend more then 800 years ago. Christianity has changed its face since then. But Islam seems to stay violent. Apart from that, neither the Jews nor the Christians are forcing their religion onto others, no part of the Torah or the Bible would justifie that.
In the Quran however there are plenty of sures that jutify or even encourage the killing of those who have other religions.



yeah you seem enlightended from inside very well

[the knightly sword]

Exactly that is the difference: when Moslems talk about the cruisades, they often don't seem to realize that these happend more then 800 years ago. Christianity has changed its face since then. But Islam seems to stay violent. Apart from that, neither the Jews nor the Christians are forcing their religion onto others, no part of the Torah or the Bible would justifie that.
In the Quran however there are plenty of sures that jutify or even encourage the killing of those who have other religions.


im not pretty sure your completly right :) . well ween it comes to killing it mostly is against crimenals . now days i dont think they are violent as on the medievil times .

[the knightly sword]

NO FIGHTS.
Just as people did in the old thread. Respect each other and do not insult or start any politics fight . T
hose are the rules.

[Sir Turylon]

keep it nice. no need for fist-a-cuffs.

Few thing s Lurker.

Ultrasounds are NOT availiable at all clinics. I think the ratios was 250 out of over 3000 locations had one. My point was to set them up in every location and provide them for free. This would give the mother a LIVE picture of the unborn child growing, and the little heart beating. They also have a 3D ultrasound which actually shows a image of the baby... They have seen the unborn child yawning, scratching, waving, grabbing its feet, clapping its hands... yet... it is not alive... amazing.

They followed the teachings of Christ.
They did not. You must not be very knowledgable on my faith. "Love the Lord God with all your mind, body and spirit. Love your neighbor as yourself." If they were really followers of Christ, they would NOT have persucuted the blacks.

You still do not understand what I was saying about Hitler... He used the religions in Germany to forward his own anti-Jewish and anti-God agendas. Constantine used Christianity to unite Rome, since Christianity was so widely accepted.

Nation states, governments, tyrants have used religion to try to unite people in their agendas. Germany, France, Spain, Italy, Turkey, Egypt, Iraq, England, and even Russia have all been victims of this type of control through religion.

understand now?

[Cali Knight]

Luking horrer
The point of my response was quite clear. The actions that Bush has taken in Iraq have killed many thousands of Muslims who are not terrorists. Are you seriously suggesting that this is otherwise?

So what your saing is that only after the US came in did people start dieing in mass numbers? :nono:
Did you froget the mass graves where thousands of Muslims "who are not terrorists" died.

[lurking horror]

Sir Turylon: "Ultrasounds are NOT availiable at all clinics. I think the ratios was 250 out of over 3000 locations had one. My point was to set them up in every location and provide them for free. This would give the mother a LIVE picture of the unborn child growing, and the little heart beating. They also have a 3D ultrasound which actually shows a image of the baby... They have seen the unborn child yawning, scratching, waving, grabbing its feet, clapping its hands... yet... it is not alive... amazing."

I don't have the statistics on hand so I'm hardly in a position to argue with you about the numbers. And regardless I would completly support ANY free medical attention for uninsured, under the poverty level, pregnant women. One (admittedly minor) thing however, unborn children do not, and cannot yawn.

Sir Turylon: "They did not. You must not be very knowledgable on my faith. "Love the Lord God with all your mind, body and spirit. Love your neighbor as yourself." If they were really followers of Christ, they would NOT have persucuted the blacks."

I did not say that they were perfect in the following of their faith. Are you perfect in the following of yours?

Sir Turylon: "You still do not understand what I was saying about Hitler... He used the religions in Germany to forward his own anti-Jewish and anti-God agendas. Constantine used Christianity to unite Rome, since Christianity was so widely accepted."

Hitler used every arsenal at his command to fight his wars. Yes, that includes religion and no, I am not arguing that. What I am saying is that a vast amount of Nazi's were practicing Christians. I'm failing to see how this is a complicated issue.

Sir Turylon: "Nation states, governments, tyrants have used religion to try to unite people in their agendas. Germany, France, Spain, Italy, Turkey, Egypt, Iraq, England, and even Russia have all been victims of this type of control through religion."

This is irrelevant to the point I have been making. On the average, Nazis were not atheists. The majority of Nazi's were Christian.

Cali Knight: "So what your saing is that only after the US came in did people start dieing in mass numbers?
Did you froget the mass graves where thousands of Muslims "who are not terrorists" died."

Your point? How is this relevant? You think that I am ignorant of the fact that Saddam commited violent acts upon his people? I am not arguing one way or another about Saddam. What I am saying is that it is moronic to assume that that actions America has taken through the command of George W. Bush, have led only to the death of terrorists. Thosands and thousands of non-terrorists have died at the hands of American soilders. This is a known fact.

[Sir Turylon]

I'm failing to see how this is a complicated issue.


well yes. It is not a complex issue... Yet, you have tried to persuade people that Christians are brainwashed little simple minded people who believe in silly theological issues. The proof is the website that you pulled those facts from. Seriously, a website that is dedicated to show Christianity is the same as nazism is not a very good source to quote from.

as for your statement about unborn babies not being able to yawn...

Yawning unborn baby (http://www.amazingpregnancy.com/weekbyweek/3d/yawn.html)

Smiling unborn baby (http://www.amazingpregnancy.com/weekbyweek/3d/smile.html)

you can look through teh rest.


Now.. I ask you.... those babies are not alive.... that is simply a most idiotic position to take when you can see the unborn child behaving like a human being... not some gooey lump of fetal matter.

just one more for you to look at.

this is a living human being (http://www.amazingpregnancy.com/weekbyweek/3d/2.html)

[lurking horror]

Sir Turylon: "well yes. It is not a complex issue... Yet, you have tried to persuade people that Christians are brainwashed little simple minded people who believe in silly theological issues."

No I have not. Show me one quote where I have done so.

Sir Turylon: "The proof is the website that you pulled those facts from."

The link was intended only to show that Nazi's were not aethists. Which it clearly does. You can think whatever you like about the rest of that website. You've obviously read more of it than I have. I was VERY clear about my intent in posting that link. Simply because YOU have decided what my argument is based on YOUR own assumptions does not make it so. I have explained my position on this repeatedly. No, I do NOT believe Christians are Nazis. I do KNOW that Nazi's worshipped Christ. There is a difference.

Sir Turylon: "Seriously, a website that is dedicated to show Christianity is the same as nazism is not a very good source to quote from."

I did not quote from this source, did I? I used it to show examples that Nazi's were not aethists. Accept the fact that your assertaion that they were aethists was incorrect. And stop assigning meaning to my arguments that DOES NOT EXIST.

Sir Turylon: "as for your statement about unborn babies not being able to yawn..."

Yawning unborn baby

Stop and think for a second. Do you really think that is a yawn? Seriously? Because unborn babies CANNOT yawn. This is a medical FACT. Unborn babies do not breath the same way we do. This has nothing to do with anyones stance on abortion. Your are misinterpreting a physical action because it seems familar to you. But this is incorrect. THINK.

Sir Turylon: "Smiling unborn baby"

Who said an unborn baby cannot smile? I fail to see your point.

Sir Turylon: "Now.. I ask you.... those babies are not alive.... that is simply a most idiotic position to take when you can see the unborn child behaving like a human being... not some gooey lump of fetal matter."

This is why there are limitations put on when a women can have an abortion. Except under extreme circumstances.

Show me a zygote that looks like this and you have a point. In the meantime, you do not.

[Stefan]

I did not say that they were perfect in the following of their faith. Are you perfect in the following of yours?

.[/B]


good point. I think what sir Turylon is tyrying to get accross is that those who do not follow fundamental concepts of christianity should not be considered christians. Eg Mormons, KKK. Jehovahs witnessess, cathlolics etc. I for one agree that christianity does have a violent past. I think a lot of the misunderstanding in this thread is arising because there are soo many denominations that consider themselves christians yet have different values, it can all be so confusing at times.

[Noldy]

Christanity is NOT fundamentalistic, and it far away from what Sir Turylon is peaking of. Christians dont want to have anything to do with militaristic options unless it is really needed to protect the christian faith, like somtimes has been done during the middle-ages with the inquisition. Christanity is far from fundamentalism.

[Stefan]

Christanity is NOT fundamentalistic, and it far away from what Sir Turylon is peaking of. .


can you explain this a bit further?

[Noldy]

Sir Turylon: "Now.. I ask you.... those babies are not alive.... that is simply a most idiotic position to take when you can see the unborn child behaving like a human being... not some gooey lump of fetal matter."

This is why there are limitations put on when a women can have an abortion. Except under extreme circumstances.

Show me a zygote that looks like this and you have a point. In the meantime, you do not.

If you 'erase the unborn baby you still take its life. You take away the oppurtunity and chance for what you call human life from the unborn baby. We are human beings, and unborn babies are human beings in process. Whether you kill the one in process or the one that is in the blossom of its life, its just means killing. You take the life away from the human. Just because the thing acts different doesnt mean its no human being. Thus abortion is murder.
Have you ever seen how abortion is done? When you see it youll know it is inhuman...