The people have spoken...

[Sir Turylon]

Christianity does not counter capital punishment. Remember, murder is not the same as justified killing. America's laws are based upon the Judeo-Christian laws with a mixture of English common law. I am for capital punishment, but I also think it is best to try to witness to those who are convicted and show them the errors of their ways. The prison ministry is the largest outreach ministry towards convicted fellons in America. Christ told us to follow the laws of ceaser that do not contradict God's commandments. It might be confusing trying to figure out if capital punishment is okay or not... It comes down to this... Thous shalt not Kill. Capital punishment is not murder, it is justice. I know this sounds contradicting.... but it really isn't.

When a fellon is sentenced to death, it is usually due to violent crime. The worst crime is 1st degree murder. We must forgive those that commit such crimes against us, but if the law demands he forfeit his life we cannot oppose that justice. It comes down to one thing. God is the judge over all.


@Anguille
You believe that good works will win your salvation. I'll direct you to a couple passages.

James 2:14-26. This passage is used to say salvation is by works. This is an incorrect interpretation of the passage. James is saying that true belief in Christ is not shown through words but through how you live. If you simply sit around and say that you believe in God and you are a Christian without actually going and and living like a Christian, you are not saved. As James says "even the demons recognize God." The catholic faith began to use this passage as a means to force the patrons of the church to accept the dogmatic practices. This is also one of the passages used to prove the point... If you do good things you are going to heaven. What this does is diminish the value of the blood in salvation.
Another passage:

Revelations 20:11-15
This passage shows that salvation comes through the "Book of Life." This Book is commonly known as the Lamb's Book of Life and the names are written in the blood of Christ. Those who are not written in that book are judged on their deeds. Here's the thing. No amount of good works will cover the sins you have commited. There is only one way to cover those sins and that is with the blood of Christ. Even if you give 40 tillion dollars to widows, that good work will not save you. Faith without works is dead, but works without faith are meaningless.

This is what Protestantism was founded on. Over time Protestantism was corrupted just as the original Catholic church was, and that is when we had the Pentacostal reformation. This reformation has not been corrupted yet, since it is the most fundemental of the beliefs. It holds strictly to the word and the direct interpretation of the Scriptures.


Just to clarify something.. Jesus said "All those who believe in me shall have everlasting life." IE, Those who accept me as their savior.. and are covered in the blood from Calvary. Later on in the New Testament, the followers of Christ are confronted with churchs who feel only the belief is enough for salvation. They are quick to remind those churchs that being a follower of Christ is more than just acknowledging Him.

cheers :cheers:

[Noldy]

Sorry, i don't understand very well what you mean and i don't like what i seem to understand. Death penalty is legal murder, still it is murder. This is not acceptable for a true Christian.

As a true christian, you may not kill without legal reasons
Circumstances to kill:
[list]
As a punishment for a crime. This crime can be murder, raping, it depends. It must be decided by the state/church (I already said I support the state/church form)
An act of self defence. This can be to protect your body, life, very valuable posessions, others, virginity...
In a justified war. Often that is a defencive war, but in some cases an offensive war can be justified. All that yield weapons may be killed in that war (any age, man or women).


Still, killing is ALWAYS, very last resort.

[Noldy]

Christianity does not counter capital punishment. Remember, murder is not the same as justified killing. America's laws are based upon the Judeo-Christian laws with a mixture of English common law. I am for capital punishment, but I also think it is best to try to witness to those who are convicted and show them the errors of their ways. The prison ministry is the largest outreach ministry towards convicted fellons in America. Christ told us to follow the laws of ceaser that do not contradict God's commandments. It might be confusing trying to figure out if capital punishment is okay or not... It comes down to this... Thous shalt not Kill. Capital punishment is not murder, it is justice. I know this sounds contradicting.... but it really isn't.

When a fellon is sentenced to death, it is usually due to violent crime. The worst crime is 1st degree murder. We must forgive those that commit such crimes against us, but if the law demands he forfeit his life we cannot oppose that justice. It comes down to one thing. God is the judge over all.


@Anguille
You believe that good works will win your salvation. I'll direct you to a couple passages.

James 2:14-26. This passage is used to say salvation is by works. This is an incorrect interpretation of the passage. James is saying that true belief in Christ is not shown through words but through how you live. If you simply sit around and say that you believe in God and you are a Christian without actually going and and living like a Christian, you are not saved. As James says "even the demons recognize God." The catholic faith began to use this passage as a means to force the patrons of the church to accept the dogmatic practices. This is also one of the passages used to prove the point... If you do good things you are going to heaven. What this does is diminish the value of the blood in salvation.
Another passage:

Revelations 20:11-15
This passage shows that salvation comes through the "Book of Life." This Book is commonly known as the Lamb's Book of Life and the names are written in the blood of Christ. Those who are not written in that book are judged on their deeds. Here's the thing. No amount of good works will cover the sins you have commited. There is only one way to cover those sins and that is with the blood of Christ. Even if you give 40 tillion dollars to widows, that good work will not save you. Faith without works is dead, but works without faith are meaningless.

This is what Protestantism was founded on. Over time Protestantism was corrupted just as the original Catholic church was, and that is when we had the Pentacostal reformation. This reformation has not been corrupted yet, since it is the most fundemental of the beliefs. It holds strictly to the word and the direct interpretation of the Scriptures.


Just to clarify something.. Jesus said "All those who believe in me shall have everlasting life." IE, Those who accept me as their savior.. and are covered in the blood from Calvary. Later on in the New Testament, the followers of Christ are confronted with churchs who feel only the belief is enough for salvation. They are quick to remind those churchs that being a follower of Christ is more than just acknowledging Him.

cheers :cheers:

And therefor, hell is a real place.

[Cali Knight]

Yes hell is a very real place. Our eternal destiny is either heaven or hell. It all depends upon our acceptance or rejection of Christ and his gift of eternal salvation.(Heb. 9:27) the Bible describes hell as a lake of fire(Rev. 20:14-15)

[Sir Turylon]

Hell is described as a lake of fire for dramatic effect.

In actuality is one thing. Total seperation from God. If you want to think about what Hell will be like... Imagine beign chained to a pitch black room for eternity, with no joy, peace, warmth.... nothing good.

Imagine being restrained in a room where you both freeze and feel as if your body is boiling alive. No sounds, no light, and no rest. You are constantly tired, but cannot sleep. You are depressed beyond all messure, but receive no respid from it. You cannot see or hear anything. You thirst but there is no relief. It is a perpetual empitness that will be with your for eternity. You will never die, but live on in this agony for eternity. This is why many believers say "Better to be a doorman in heaven than to rule as king in hell."

Hell is total seperation from God. Very... fearful thing to think of.

[Sir Turylon]

posting again.... just wanted to repond to one more thing.

The new testatement is the valid NEW deal....the message is that God loves ALL human beings....there is nothing about death penalty. The old testament is gone even if some aspects are still valid.

Do not confuse the New Covenant with the Old Covenant.

Christ did not tell us to forget the Old Testament. In fact He did the opposite. He refered to it throughout His teachings. The two commandments that He gave "Love the Lord God with all your mind, body, and spirit" and "Love your neighbor as yourself" are both found in the Old Testament. They are a simplification of the Ten Commandments. Christ never stated that they were no longer valid, only that the Abrahamic covenant was no longer enough for salvation.

This is one of the biggest wrongs in Catholicism. Several other religious sects are using only the New Testament in their teachings. Not a good thing, in all honesty... It is like teaching history only from 1900 to 1950 and saying "this is all of history."

[Noldy]

Christ also came to right the wrongs of the farizees. In the past thousands of years, the script had been interpretated wrong, and a lot of things were put between them that werent there before, such as the sacrifying of lambs. Jesus righted their wrongs and left behind the church wich saint Peter as head of it.

@Sir Turylon:
The Old Testament isnt forgotten, ignored or anything else. Its just a case of priority. The New Testament is the most important part of the bible, thats why only the New Testamant is preached in the epistles and evangelics. We are ought to know the Old Testamant as well.

[Noldy]

Hell is described as a lake of fire for dramatic effect.

In actuality is one thing. Total seperation from God. If you want to think about what Hell will be like... Imagine beign chained to a pitch black room for eternity, with no joy, peace, warmth.... nothing good.

Imagine being restrained in a room where you both freeze and feel as if your body is boiling alive. No sounds, no light, and no rest. You are constantly tired, but cannot sleep. You are depressed beyond all messure, but receive no respid from it. You cannot see or hear anything. You thirst but there is no relief. It is a perpetual empitness that will be with your for eternity. You will never die, but live on in this agony for eternity. This is why many believers say "Better to be a doorman in heaven than to rule as king in hell."

Hell is total seperation from God. Very... fearful thing to think of.

That is right. You feel despair, remorselessness, envy, hopelesness. You can never enjoy or see God. You are tortured with the envy of the blesses in heaven. But you are also tortured with shame, because all your sins will be known to all entirely and completely. You will remain so for eternity. Nothing on earth is worth one moment in Hell.

[lurking horror]

Lurker... you're missing the point here.

Umm. No. You have either completly missed the point here yourself or you are desperate to turn this into an unrelated debate.

Judicial branch cannot MAKE/CREATE/LEGISLATE laws. It's sole purpose is to interpret the constitution and declare legislated laws as constitutional or not. Abortion was never a legal practice until roe v wade. Why? because there was never a law passed on it.

I do not care. I have told you repeatedly that this is not the issue I have been discussing. I am refferring to our currently elected officials and the decisions they will make in the future. As far as the past goes, it's irrelevant. It is past. Abortions were allowed whether you agree with the legality or not.

I have to laugh at your attempt to dismiss the fact that liberal organizations have used the coruts to forward their own agendas. Abortion, gay rights, the seperation of church and state, wtc... have all been forwarded in one arena.. the courts.

Go ahead and laugh. But be clear that I am not dismissing your interpretation. I simply do not care about it one way or another. It is not what I have been discussing with you and (as it is virtually a seperate topic) is best left for anoither time.

you do not understand what I said in "minority is protected from majority."
The courts are there to protect the minorities from majority tyranny. They are NOT there for the minority to impose their values over the majority with court decisions.

What you call toe-may-toe I call toe-ma-toe. It's simply a matter of perspective.

Case in point... There was a case where a nativity was not allowed to be displayed in a public park during December. However, the star of David and the symbol for Kwanza WERE allowed. This would be a direct supression of freedom of religious practice right garunteed by the constitution. When two other religious/cultural symbols are allowed, a third must also be. The ruling by the city was this... Since the star of David is a cultural symbol, it was not a violation of seperation of church and state.... The symbol of Judaism is a cultural symbol and not religious symbol? doesn't make sense... does it. It does when you factor in the other times where one religion has been singled out from public view.

Yeah. Religion sure is hurting. Get's the beat down all the time, doesn't it?

We agree on one thing though.

Actually, you agree with many of the things I have been discussing throughout this thread. Most of the areas we disagee on is where you have assigned arguments and opinions to me that I have never endorsed.

Whoever is in the white house, he will forward the agenda supported by the majority.

While protecting the intrerests of the minority. At least, that's the way the system is meant to work. A balance. Right?

[Stefan]

This is what Protestantism was founded on. Over time Protestantism was corrupted just as the original Catholic church was, and that is when we had the Pentacostal reformation. This reformation has not been corrupted yet, since it is the most fundemental of the beliefs. It holds strictly to the word and the direct interpretation of the Scriptures.

cheers :cheers:


Can you explain the changes of the pentacostal reformation in more detail? to my knowledge most christian sects are still based on many of the ideas introduced in the original protestant reformation of Luther, Calvin etc.

[Sir Turylon]

Link:
Pentecostal or Pentacostal Church (http://www.upci.org)

The churchs began to pop up around the country after a revival moved through. They were united under one body later on. Main difference between Evangelical and Pentecostal is that Evangelicals are non-denominational. We are not part of an organized religious organization. Evangelical churchs are seperate, but together as one in the Body of Christ.

[Anguille2]

Christianity does not counter capital punishment. Remember, murder is not the same as justified killing. America's laws are based upon the Judeo-Christian laws with a mixture of English common law. I am for capital punishment, but I also think it is best to try to witness to those who are convicted and show them the errors of their ways. The prison ministry is the largest outreach ministry towards convicted fellons in America. Christ told us to follow the laws of ceaser that do not contradict God's commandments. It might be confusing trying to figure out if capital punishment is okay or not... It comes down to this... Thous shalt not Kill. Capital punishment is not murder, it is justice. I know this sounds contradicting.... but it really isn't.
Killing someone is murder. Call it justice or whatever, yet it is murder and real Christians cannot approve it. Sorry.


When a fellon is sentenced to death, it is usually due to violent crime. The worst crime is 1st degree murder. We must forgive those that commit such crimes against us, but if the law demands he forfeit his life we cannot oppose that justice. It comes down to one thing. God is the judge over all.
God IS the judge over all. He is the only who has the right to do it. Thus Death Penalty is illigal in the eyes of God.


@Anguille
You believe that good works will win your salvation. I'll direct you to a couple passages.

James 2:14-26. This passage is used to say salvation is by works. This is an incorrect interpretation of the passage. James is saying that true belief in Christ is not shown through words but through how you live. If you simply sit around and say that you believe in God and you are a Christian without actually going and and living like a Christian, you are not saved. As James says "even the demons recognize God." The catholic faith began to use this passage as a means to force the patrons of the church to accept the dogmatic practices. This is also one of the passages used to prove the point... If you do good things you are going to heaven. What this does is diminish the value of the blood in salvation.
Another passage:

Revelations 20:11-15
This passage shows that salvation comes through the "Book of Life." This Book is commonly known as the Lamb's Book of Life and the names are written in the blood of Christ. Those who are not written in that book are judged on their deeds. Here's the thing. No amount of good works will cover the sins you have commited. There is only one way to cover those sins and that is with the blood of Christ. Even if you give 40 tillion dollars to widows, that good work will not save you. Faith without works is dead, but works without faith are meaningless.

This is what Protestantism was founded on. Over time Protestantism was corrupted just as the original Catholic church was, and that is when we had the Pentacostal reformation. This reformation has not been corrupted yet, since it is the most fundemental of the beliefs. It holds strictly to the word and the direct interpretation of the Scriptures.

You missunderstood me here. I meant the way of life. In that sense it doesn't matter what's your religion if you do good (and mean it)


Just to clarify something.. Jesus said "All those who believe in me shall have everlasting life." IE, Those who accept me as their savior.. and are covered in the blood from Calvary. Later on in the New Testament, the followers of Christ are confronted with churchs who feel only the belief is enough for salvation. They are quick to remind those churchs that being a follower of Christ is more than just acknowledging Him.
Everyone gets the chance to accept him as their savior when they die. There is no elite on this planet. Just lucky ones who may prepare themselves better to what comes after. However everyone can be saved.

[Anguille2]

As a true christian, you may not kill without legal reasons
Circumstances to kill:
[list]
As a punishment for a crime. This crime can be murder, raping, it depends. It must be decided by the state/church (I already said I support the state/church form)
An act of self defence. This can be to protect your body, life, very valuable posessions, others, virginity...
In a justified war. Often that is a defencive war, but in some cases an offensive war can be justified. All that yield weapons may be killed in that war (any age, man or women).


Still, killing is ALWAYS, very last resort.

I agree on point 2. Point 3 in some cases. Point 1 not acceptable.

[Anguille2]

posting again.... just wanted to repond to one more thing.



Do not confuse the New Covenant with the Old Covenant.

Christ did not tell us to forget the Old Testament. In fact He did the opposite. He refered to it throughout His teachings. The two commandments that He gave "Love the Lord God with all your mind, body, and spirit" and "Love your neighbor as yourself" are both found in the Old Testament. They are a simplification of the Ten Commandments. Christ never stated that they were no longer valid, only that the Abrahamic covenant was no longer enough for salvation.

This is one of the biggest wrongs in Catholicism. Several other religious sects are using only the New Testament in their teachings. Not a good thing, in all honesty... It is like teaching history only from 1900 to 1950 and saying "this is all of history."

When Christ was teaching, he had to work on the old Covenant otherwise noone would have listen."Love your neighbor as yourself" is now the main law. As i said, not everything from the old Testament is irrelevant. Yet God is not a God of War anymore but a God of Love...this is a HUGE difference. I agree that you cannot understand the new deal without knowing the old deal.

[timurlenk]

American history started with the Viking discovery, and continued up through 1492 and then colonial history started. Just because the nation was founded in 1776, and gained worldwide recognition of sovreignty after 1812, does not mean our history starts there. :go: (besides, it's more fun saying our history is linked with English colonial history... that way we can prevent associating with the French colonies.;) )

maybe i did not express myself clear enough, my fault.
what im trying to say is, an american [b]governmental[b] document cant be claimed for 1620, cause there were no united states of america. when you need examples for god-linked american [b]governmental[b] documents, your search has to start 1776. maybe you will find some :)

[timurlenk]

As a true christian, you may not kill without legal reasons
Circumstances to kill:
[list]
As a punishment for a crime. This crime can be murder, raping, it depends. It must be decided by the state/church (I already said I support the state/church form)
An act of self defence. This can be to protect your body, life, very valuable posessions, others, virginity...
In a justified war. Often that is a defencive war, but in some cases an offensive war can be justified. All that yield weapons may be killed in that war (any age, man or women).


Still, killing is ALWAYS, very last resort.

as an agnostic, i only accept one type of killing:
self defense to protect lifes or physical integrity. no possession is worth killing a human being. defensive war is an act of self defense.

to kill as punishment i do not accept. its just revenge imho.

who declares a war as justified??? the winner, the looser, the world? there were enough wars where both sides believed in their right for war. ;(

[Noldy]

A defensive war can also be done to protect your lands, money, power, wich is in fact always the case. Yet you say a defensive war is justified because it is self-defence. Someone is wrong here.

Look in Gen. 9;6:
(my translation from dutch)
He who spills a mans blood, his blood shall be spillt by men. For as His image has God created men.

Also Ex. 22;18:
Everyone who has mistreated an animal, will be punished by death.

War is justified by the church, i already stated i am for the church/state.

I can say alot more on the death penalty subject but it wont matter because you wont change you mind as long as i come with religious arguments, no matter how much i say.

[Sir Turylon]

Catholicism teaches that you can pray for your deceased so that they are saved. This has no factual basis in Scriupture. It is a dogmatic practice invented by the Catholic clergy to appease people.

I do agree that you can accept ihm on your death bed. I have had personal experience with this. My grandfather was very ill for a year before he passed away. He was a devout Christian for many years before my grandparents moved up here. The night he passed, I was standing at the foot of his hospital bed and a spirit of peace and tranquility was present there. Instantly I reocgnized it as an angel, who was waiting in the room for my grandfather. Right before he died my grandfather smiled and you could tell a calmness in his eyes. This is remarkable because he was suffering from late term ALS, but he knew who each of us were that night.

A similair thing happened to my grandmother who rejected God after her daughter, my aunt, died after childbirth. My family stayed up the whole night, praying for her and waiting in the hospital. Once again, a calmness was present. My father asked her if she knew that God loved her. Her answer was most precious. "Yes Bob, I know that Jesus loves me and has forgiven me." So yes, you can be saved while on your death bed, but why wait? Salvation is not a means to the end, but rather a means to all of life.


@anguille
Yet God is not a God of War anymore but a God of Love

God has never changed, and He never will change. He was, is, and forever will be. To say that He has changed from a God of War to a God of Love.... :nono: Have you read revelations?


The "new deal" is something in American politics. Covenant..... New covenant. Not a deal...

[timurlenk]

A defensive war can also be done to protect your lands, money, power, wich is in fact always the case. Yet you say a defensive war is justified because it is self-defence. Someone is wrong here.

indeed a special case.
but an attack on your country means also a threat and limitation to your freedom and there is no superior authority to hold off the aggressor.

if you are victim of e.g. a burglar and you catch him, you have not the right to kill him, imho. its the duty of police to catch and arrest the burglar.
the right to kill to protect your possesses leads to loads of dead people, imho.


but the case of killing as last possibility to defend possessions is very difficult to decide. ;(

[Stefan]

Catholicism teaches that you can pray for your deceased so that they are saved. This has no factual basis in Scriupture. It is a dogmatic practice invented by the Catholic clergy to appease people.

I do agree that you can accept ihm on your death bed. I have had personal experience with this. My grandfather was very ill for a year before he passed away. He was a devout Christian for many years before my grandparents moved up here. The night he passed, I was standing at the foot of his hospital bed and a spirit of peace and tranquility was present there. Instantly I reocgnized it as an angel, who was waiting in the room for my grandfather. Right before he died my grandfather smiled and you could tell a calmness in his eyes. This is remarkable because he was suffering from late term ALS, but he knew who each of us were that night.

A similair thing happened to my grandmother who rejected God after her daughter, my aunt, died after childbirth. My family stayed up the whole night, praying for her and waiting in the hospital. Once again, a calmness was present. My father asked her if she knew that God loved her. Her answer was most precious. "Yes Bob, I know that Jesus loves me and has forgiven me." So yes, you can be saved while on your death bed, but why wait? Salvation is not a means to the end, but rather a means to all of life.


@anguille


God has never changed, and He never will change. He was, is, and forever will be. To say that He has changed from a God of War to a God of Love.... :nono: Have you read revelations?


The "new deal" is something in American politics. Covenant..... New covenant. Not a deal...


Anguille was saying that people get a chance to accept Jesus christ AFTER death, as in at the time of judgement, not on their deathbed. Personally i completely disagree that you can accept christ After death.