The people have spoken...

[Dobber]

ofcourse we dont believe in the same god he only says the 3 religions are related to each other



but the funny part is all these things u said is also the same with jews but still u guys consider them them as same religion right?


The relationship of the 3 religions is Abraham, The Jewish peoples decended from Abraham through the birth of Isaac by Sarah. The Islamic peoples decended from Abraham through the birth of Ishmael by Hagar(the handmaiden of Sarah). Christianity came from Jesus Christ who was born a descendant of David who was King of the Jewish people and also a descendant of Abraham.
There is the other part of this relationship in that all three pray to the God of Abraham.


The Jewish religion does not accept Christ as the Messiah, the Christian faith does accept Christ as the Messiah. And as I understand from what I have read the Islamic people consider Christ as a prophet, but with no connection to Islam.

[Cro_Knight]

yes yess yes

[Stefan]

Oh, so you would have it that we just open the doors of the prison and set everyone free and let crime run rampant in the street! Good idea! And while I am at it, I will just quit paying my taxes and say, but my Governor or President is a christian and I must be forgiven and pardoned and not serve the consequences for not paying my taxes.

When the people committed their crime that got them the death penalty, they knew that there was the possibility of receiving a death sentence and they committed it anyway. That is what the law states is the consequence of their crime. A Governor can not change a law just because he does not agree with it. If he could, then he could say that he doesn't agree with abortion, that he thinks it is the murder of unborn children and should not be done, so there will be no more abortions performed in the state he governs. But he can not do that anymore than he can set aside a death sentence.
If you are going to say that capital punishmnet is wrong then you must also say that abortion is wrong and that assisted suicide is wrong.


Indeed, christ tells us to obey the laws of the government so long as they do not go against the laws of God.

[Hector]

ok here are the prophets mentioned in Quran we have more but i only type the ones mentioned in Quran

Adam

Idris dont know the english name for it

Noah

Hud again sorry

Salih sorry

Abraham

Lut maybe you guys can figure out the english names yourself

Ishmael

Isaac

Jacob

Yusuf

Eyyub

Suayb

Mozes

Harun

David ( Davud i think english name for it is David )

Suleyman

Ilyas

Elyasa

Yunus

Zulkifl

Zekeriyya

Yahya

Isa ( Jezus )

Mohammed

ok the following holy books are giving to the following persons

Tevrat ( Torah i think ) to Mozes

Zebur no english name sorry Davud ( David not maybe not sure )

Incil ( Bible ) Isa ( Jezus )

Quran to Mohammed

now this is the reason we are related


the following persons it is not sure if they are prophets or nobles but they are mentioned in Quran

Uzeyir

Lokman

Zulkarneyn

[Hector]

The relationship of the 3 religions is Abraham, The Jewish peoples decended from Abraham through the birth of Isaac by Sarah. The Islamic peoples decended from Abraham through the birth of Ishmael by Hagar(the handmaiden of Sarah). Christianity came from Jesus Christ who was born a descendant of David who was King of the Jewish people and also a descendant of Abraham.
There is the other part of this relationship in that all three pray to the God of Abraham.


The Jewish religion does not accept Christ as the Messiah, the Christian faith does accept Christ as the Messiah. And as I understand from what I have read the Islamic people consider Christ as a prophet, but with no connection to Islam.


No we consider all of them related to Islam since they believed in the same god

[Sir Turylon]

Lurker... you're missing the point here.

Judicial branch cannot MAKE/CREATE/LEGISLATE laws. It's sole purpose is to interpret the constitution and declare legislated laws as constitutional or not. Abortion was never a legal practice until roe v wade. Why? because there was never a law passed on it.

I have to laugh at your attempt to dismiss the fact that liberal organizations have used the coruts to forward their own agendas. Abortion, gay rights, the seperation of church and state, wtc... have all been forwarded in one arena.. the courts.

BTW, did you know When Jefferson wrote seperation of church and state... He was refering to the state trying to interfere with the churchs. This is exactly what the IRS has been doing with their "tax-exemption" rule. The state defines what is and what is not a church, atm.

you do not understand what I said in "minority is protected from majority."
The courts are there to protect the minorities from majority tyranny. They are NOT there for the minority to impose their values over the majority with court decisions. Case in point... There was a case where a nativity was not allowed to be displayed in a public park during December. However, the star of David and the symbol for Kwanza WERE allowed. This would be a direct supression of freedom of religious practice right garunteed by the constitution. When two other religious/cultural symbols are allowed, a third must also be. The ruling by the city was this... Since the star of David is a cultural symbol, it was not a violation of seperation of church and state.... The symbol of Judaism is a cultural symbol and not religious symbol? doesn't make sense... does it. It does when you factor in the other times where one religion has been singled out from public view.

Few other cases:
A family built a house which had a large stone facade on it. They had the stone builders put in large letters the words "Jesus Christ is Lord." This was on their OWN private property, yet the city demanded they remove it. The case went to the appelate court where the initial decision was over-turned.

Churchs are not allowed to have sermons based upon political candidates. You can speak about the issues and their relevance to the faith, but cannot openly support one candidate. This does not apply to African American churchs though. Since these churches have mostly black congregations, any invokation towards them would be considered racial supression. John Kerry made good use of this in 04. He went around to numerous Baptist churchs to give "sermons" on his "morality" and how the Republicans were "supressing" the black vote. Nothing was said.

The Supreme Court has ruled that "One nation under God" is not unconstitutional. But, lower federal courts have ruled in opposition to such phrases. Judge fishing anyone?

I'll not go into the other ones such as a student not being able to advertise for his school's Christian club while a lesbian club was allowed to. And the time where a student was denied the right to bring in a speaker on creation theory for a biology discussion. Or the time that a student was denied to bring in a speaker for abstinence while somebody handed out condoms in the High School gymnasium. Or any other the others.

We agree on one thing though. Whoever is in the white house, he will forward the agenda supported by the majority.


@abeth
welcome to forum... bad first post though. lol.
The Republican party is, by and large, moving the country to a position where its freedoms are threatened in the name of security and morality

The sky is falling! Our rights are gonna be taken away! It's a conspiracy to form a theocracy! ahhhhhhhhhhhh!

The founding fathers were very much against any religious influence on the state
You got that backwards. They were afraid the state would interfere in religion. This has histocial proof seeing as how England had a state run religion.. (instituted by Henry 8th... Church of England... blah blah blah.) The fathers were concernd that the government would meddle in religious freedom, so they made that little thing called "Congress shall pass no law..." Seperation of Church and State did not come in until the 1960s when pray was ruled out of school (which is actually a state right... since education was left to the states)

Are you familiar with American history before 1950? Go back to the 1600s when it actually started. The very first governmental document in the colonies read.. "In the name of God, Amen. We, whose names are underwritten, the Loyal Subjects of our dread Sovereign Lord, King James, by the Grace of God, of England, France and Ireland, King, Defender of the Faith"

Check it out here. (http://www.law.ou.edu/hist/mayflow.html)

[Sir Turylon]

Double Post..... trying to keep politics and religous debates seperate. How Jeffersonian of me.

Islam is based upon the denial of Christ as salvation and the re-assertion that salvation comes by works. This is why it says in the Quran that "Those christians who have strayed from the truth faith..." will not be let into heaven.


Here's the differences.
(seperating diferent forms somewhat)
Judaism: Abrahamic, Davidian covenant. Do not accept Christ as Messiah

Orthodox Judaism: Strict reliance on torah. Practicers are usually leaders and other such figures.

Messianic Judaism: Accept Christ as Messiah and continue to practice Jewish faith, while practicing Christianity as well.

Christianity: Divinie Trinity. Believe that blood of Christ is sole path to salvation. May or may not practice certain Jewish customs.

Catholicism: Four divinity figures. Father, Son, Holy Spirit, and Mary. No direct contact to God accept through preist to Mary. Still believe in salvation through Christ. More dogmatic regimes and practices.

Baptist: Divine Trinity. Believe in baptiism in Holy Spirit. Believe in being born again. Salvation through Christ.

Luthern: Never really studied them. Not sure if they believe in Trinity.

Pentacostal: Most like the original church. Divine Trinity. Spirit-filled. Being born again. Speaking in tongues. Salvation through blood of Christ.

Evangelical: Divine Trinity. Spirit filled. Born again. Salvation through Christ. Evangelism (spreading the gospel) as a great calling. Most oriented towards the disciples.

[Stefan]

Double Post..... trying to keep politics and religous debates seperate. How Jeffersonian of me.

Islam is based upon the denial of Christ as salvation and the re-assertion that salvation comes by works. This is why it says in the Quran that "Those christians who have strayed from the truth faith..." will not be let into heaven.


Here's the differences.
(seperating diferent forms somewhat)
Judaism: Abrahamic, Davidian covenant. Do not accept Christ as Messiah

Orthodox Judaism: Strict reliance on torah. Practicers are usually leaders and other such figures.

Messianic Judaism: Accept Christ as Messiah and continue to practice Jewish faith, while practicing Christianity as well.

Christianity: Divinie Trinity. Believe that blood of Christ is sole path to salvation. May or may not practice certain Jewish customs.

Catholicism: Four divinity figures. Father, Son, Holy Spirit, and Mary. No direct contact to God accept through preist to Mary. Still believe in salvation through Christ. More dogmatic regimes and practices.

Baptist: Divine Trinity. Believe in baptiism in Holy Spirit. Believe in being born again. Salvation through Christ.

Luthern: Never really studied them. Not sure if they believe in Trinity.

Pentacostal: Most like the original church. Divine Trinity. Spirit-filled. Being born again. Speaking in tongues. Salvation through blood of Christ.

Evangelical: Divine Trinity. Spirit filled. Born again. Salvation through Christ. Evangelism (spreading the gospel) as a great calling. Most oriented towards the disciples.


Luthern is born out of the ideas of martin luther, one of the original protestants, their beliefs are identical to your definetion of "Christianity". Im not sure what seperates them from the other protestant denominations but they most definetly believe in the trinity and salvation through faith in christ.

[Sir Turylon]

Luthern is born out of the ideas of martin luther, one of the original protestants, their beliefs are identical to your definetion of "Christianity". Im not sure what seperates them from the other protestant denominations but they most definetly believe in the trinity and salvation through faith in christ.

I'm not sure either... but I do not believe they believe in being spirit filled. They are more like reformed catholics.. iirc. I'll do some research and post later on it.

[Anguille2]

Unitarians believe that "all religions are good" and that you can worship whatever you want and get saved, direct contradiction with christian teachings. Catholics believe only the catholic denomination can be saved through faith in "mother church" and its 7 sacrements, yes the 7 sacrements are requirments for salvation. Again direct contradiction of christian teachings.

"For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God" romans 3:23

" For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, so that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" John 3:16

...while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us" romans 5:8

"there is none righteous, no not one" Romans 3:10

"For by grace are ye saved by faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast" ephesians 2:8-9

"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved" romans 10:9

Thanks for your answer. However i don't think that catholics think they are the only ones who will be saved (some probably) as Jesus said that everyone will be said. I believe that no matter what religion, if you do good, you will be saved. Furthermore...hell is not a place but is your state of mind when you realise what pain you have caused.

[William Blake]

Luther did practicaly one big step - he said that catholic church is not the one who knew the will of god. He said that every regular man was as close to god as pope and regular people dont need any priest to talk to god and that priest is just a man, not a god's hand. He opposed rituals and latin as the only language of praying, but he said that intentions and minds of people were open to god and you didnt need a latin or any "hardcoded" ritual to address to god.

He also attacked the church as organization which owned lands and property and engaged in things like trading of pre-manufactored documents - pardons, which supposed to automaticaly relieve any sins once bought from church.

[Anguille2]

Jesus stated that he came to fufill the law not to destroy it.
The laws God ordained in the Old Testament included capital punishment.
There were laws that required whole families to be out to death for the crimes of one member.
Children could be put to death for disrespecting their parents.
There were many such laws.

There were two thieves being executed (one on either side) along with Jesus as he hung on a cross. One thief accepted Christ, but Jesus pardoned his sin, but he did not rake away the consequence of his sin. He said that today you will be with Me in Paradise. The thief still suffered his execution.

There can be pardon, but we still have to suffer the consequence of our actions.

The old testament is just that OLD....meaning old deal.
The new testatement is the valid NEW deal....the message is that God loves ALL human beings....there is nothing about death penalty. The old testament is gone even if some aspects are still valid.

[Anguille2]

Oh, so you would have it that we just open the doors of the prison and set everyone free and let crime run rampant in the street! Good idea! And while I am at it, I will just quit paying my taxes and say, but my Governor or President is a christian and I must be forgiven and pardoned and not serve the consequences for not paying my taxes.

When the people committed their crime that got them the death penalty, they knew that there was the possibility of receiving a death sentence and they committed it anyway. That is what the law states is the consequence of their crime. A Governor can not change a law just because he does not agree with it. If he could, then he could say that he doesn't agree with abortion, that he thinks it is the murder of unborn children and should not be done, so there will be no more abortions performed in the state he governs. But he can not do that anymore than he can set aside a death sentence.
If you are going to say that capital punishmnet is wrong then you must also say that abortion is wrong and that assisted suicide is wrong.

Fanatist proclaim that it is forbidden to take the life that God created (unborn child) yet they are very happy with death penalties (again taking the life that god created)...this is very illogical and not very smart. This is something very unlogical. You should be either for abortion AND death penalty or the other way round...not a mix. These people should start to think...i just hope their not mathematicians. :nono:

[timurlenk]

Oh, so you would have it that we just open the doors of the prison and set everyone free and let crime run rampant in the street! Good idea!
no one ever claimed this. to stop capital punishment is not to stop punishment over all. why are using such arguments, when nobody claims exemption from punisment???

If you are going to say that capital punishmnet is wrong then you must also say that abortion is wrong and that assisted suicide is wrong.
illogical conclusion. it presumes abortion and (assisted) suicide as murder. but many people, especially those who dont believe in gods, do not compare abortion and suicide to murder. since we dont live in theocracies, definition of murder is made by laws / state, not - thanks god - by church. even if you believe in a god, there are different views when life starts.


The sky is falling! Our rights are gonna be taken away! It's a conspiracy to form a theocracy! ahhhhhhhhhhhh!
at least you got it :cheers:


Are you familiar with American history before 1950? Go back to the 1600s when it actually started. The very first governmental document in the colonies read.. "In the name of God, Amen. We, whose names are underwritten, the Loyal Subjects of our dread Sovereign Lord, King James, by the Grace of God, of England, France and Ireland, King, Defender of the Faith"
thats british history, not american. remember july 4th, 1776? :rolleyes:

[Ernst]

Back to 'the people have spoken' initial subject, and American recent political events :)

CNN provides a very detailed map of the results county by county. I am not very aware of American geography at the county level. But it seems to me Kerry has a clear majority in counties belonging to large cities > 500,000, whatever the State (ex. Texas maybe). Bush made it in middle cities and less populated areas.

I wonder if the Americans saw this election as the fight of a progressist urban America vs a more conservative 'rural' one ?

This is first impression, I may be mistaken. Are there any "official" statistics on the subject ?

[Noldy]

Fanatist proclaim that it is forbidden to take the life that God created (unborn child) yet they are very happy with death penalties (again taking the life that god created)...this is very illogical and not very smart. This is something very unlogical. You should be either for abortion AND death penalty or the other way round...not a mix. These people should start to think...i just hope their not mathematicians. :nono:
Its not completely true that you may not kill anybody.
In fact, when a person is about to do a deathsin (is that the right word?) it is actually better for him to die, because if he dies after he has done the deathsin hell go in hell.
Also, when certain people bring the religion of others in danger (like the cathars (again, is that the right word?)) it is better for them to die, because if they live much longer, they can decieve other christians to the wrong faith.
This must be done under strict authority of the church, thats why I still support a state where church and state are one.

BTW: Killing ONLY, ONLY as a last resort.

[Anguille2]

Its not completely true that you may not kill anybody.
In fact, when a person is about to do a deathsin (is that the right word?) it is actually better for him to die, because if he dies after he has done the deathsin hell go in hell.
Also, when certain people bring the religion of others in danger (like the cathars (again, is that the right word?)) it is better for them to die, because if they live much longer, they can decieve other christians to the wrong faith.
This must be done under strict authority of the church, thats why I still support a state where church and state are one.

BTW: Killing ONLY, ONLY as a last resort.

Sorry, i don't understand very well what you mean and i don't like what i seem to understand. Death penalty is legal murder, still it is murder. This is not acceptable for a true Christian.

[Stefan]

Thanks for your answer. However i don't think that catholics think they are the only ones who will be saved (some probably) as Jesus said that everyone will be said. I believe that no matter what religion, if you do good, you will be saved. Furthermore...hell is not a place but is your state of mind when you realise what pain you have caused.


IM not sure about their view today but popes like Boniface have made claim that the catholic church and its sacrements (works) are the only path to salvation. Jesus stated that those who believe in him will be saved, "doing good" is what jesus specifically claimed will not save you. The verses i had referenced clearly show that.

""is necessary for salvation that every living creature be under submission to the Roman pontiff"

[Cali Knight]

http://www.princeton.edu/~rvdb/JAVA/election2004/

This site has a good politcial maps conserning election 2004.

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works so no man can boast.(Ephesians 2:8-10).

[Sir Turylon]

Ernst. Correct. Kerry took the highly urbanized areas because the Democratic party feeds off poverty and lower class workers. Just to give you some facts... If Bush won 40% of the african american vote, Kerry would have not breached the 20 million mark.

Up here in the great state of maize and blue... There has been a shift in the political epicenter away from Detroit. More and more minorities and non-white ethnic groups are moving farther from the urban centers. This is why Kerry only won like 102,000 more votes that Bush in MI. For the past 4 years the mayor of Detroit has been breaking the city's budget trying to keep the minorities from mving out of the city. Why? He knows if he loses any more votes he will have a hard time being elected again.


thats british history, not american. remember july 4th, 1776?

American history started with the Viking discovery, and continued up through 1492 and then colonial history started. Just because the nation was founded in 1776, and gained worldwide recognition of sovreignty after 1812, does not mean our history starts there. :go: (besides, it's more fun saying our history is linked with English colonial history... that way we can prevent associating with the French colonies.;) )