The people have spoken...

[Noldy]

can you explain this a bit further?

Fundamentalistic means it has a basement of intollarence with a militaristic character. Christanity isnt militaristic. And about intollarence, its what you think intollarence is. Christians do not hate those who have a different religion, or would do any harm to them. (there are exceptions) But they do not think that what one thinks is right, is right.

[Stefan]

sorry im misunderstanding your wording, when you say, "and it far away from what Sir Turylon is peaking of. ", are you disagreeing with his views on christianity or agreeing with them?

[Sir Turylon]

I understand how you can think that some Nazis were Christian. This is false though. There is a big difference between saying you are one and being one. Remember, the very definition of Christian is "like Christ." This means you must live your life as Christ lived His on earth. If you fail to live like Christ, you truely are not a Christian. Does this mean you can never do any wrong or commit any sin? No. Living as a Christian implies that you strive to remain sinless in God's eyes. Restrain from evil, help those less fortunate... etc. Are their any perfect Christians? No. If anyone claims to be perfect, he is deceived.


Clarification:

Nazism is not Athiesm. I do not mean to say one is the other. The main logic was that both believe in a rejection of God. Nazism is branch of socialism. Socialism has a mandate of "man is good by nature." This is stated by the Humanist Manifesto. Humanism is a basic tenant in Socialism. (you can read up on it)

@noldy.

Please do not say Fundementalism is wrong. When you speak of Fundementalism, you might be confused with Fanaticism. I am a Fundementalist Christian. I believe in the absolute truth of the Scriptures as the Word of God. I believe in their strict interpretation. I do not believe in the dogmas and other human created practices. I do not, however, believe in the fanatic belief in them.

Too much has gone on to say Fundementalism is Fanaticism.

The Inquisition was a Fanaticism movement.

just wanted to clear that up.

[Sir Turylon]

Stop and think for a second. Do you really think that is a yawn? Seriously? Because unborn babies CANNOT yawn. This is a medical FACT. Unborn babies do not breath the same way we do. This has nothing to do with anyones stance on abortion. Your are misinterpreting a physical action because it seems familar to you. But this is incorrect. THINK.

A yawn is when you open your mouth and stretch your mouth because you are tired. It has nothing to do with sighing or the expulsion of air from the lungs. Yawning has to do with the muscles of the mouth.... There are audible yawns and silent yawns.

[Noldy]

1. Do you label fanaticism as good or bad?

2. What you mean is not fundamental, its conventional, conservative, traditional. Fundamental is:
A usually religious movement or point of view characterized by a return to fundamental principles, by rigid adherence to those principles, and often by intolerance of other views and opposition to secularism.

Is that what you are? If so, im sorry for misunderstanding.

[lurking horror]

Noldy: "If you 'erase the unborn baby you still take its life. You take away the oppurtunity and chance for what you call human life from the unborn baby. We are human beings, and unborn babies are human beings in process. Whether you kill the one in process or the one that is in the blossom of its life, its just means killing. You take the life away from the human. Just because the thing acts different doesnt mean its no human being. Thus abortion is murder."

Your point? I have been arguing that abortion is not an issue for the federal government to decide. It is a matter to be determined on the state level. Furthermore, The response of mine that you quote must be looked at in context. Sir Turylon is arguing that the unborn children in the links he has provided are human BECAUSE of their human mannerisims. If that is the basis for definition of humanity than it does not apply to earlier stages of pregnancy. I'm not saying that a fetus at an earlier stage should not have this consideration, but that it is wrong for him to suggest that having what appears to be human mannerisims defines humanity. That argument in of itself eliminates the inclusion of earlier stages of delvelopment. It actually seems that Sir Turylon is the one you should be taking issue with on this. At least until he clarifies his position. Which I suspect he will.

Noldy: "Have you ever seen how abortion is done? When you see it youll know it is inhuman..."

I have. And I do not agree with you. Your perceptions of the act of abortion itself is irrelevant. What is relevant is the elimination of possible life. Debate that if you like. But the percieved momentary brutality is absolutly of minor importance when compared to the possible finality of it all, isn't it?

[Sir Turylon]

1. Do you label fanaticism as good or bad?

2. What you mean is not fundamental, its conventional, conservative, traditional. Fundamental is:
A usually religious movement or point of view characterized by a return to fundamental principles, by rigid adherence to those principles, and often by intolerance of other views and opposition to secularism.

Is that what you are? If so, im sorry for misunderstanding.

Fanaticism is always bad.

one second...
Fundementalism is both a form of governing view and lifestyle. They are different.

Iran has a Fundementalist Islamic government. It believes in the strict interpretation of the Quran.

Christian fundementalism believes in the strict interpretation of the Holy Scriptures. This is what I believe in. This does not mean I am intolerant of other views.

Your definition is correct. I do not believe secularism is okay, but I am tolerant of those that feel it is okay. I believe that my faith is the true faith, but I am tolerant of other faiths.

Christianity teaches tolerance. Some religions do not. When you say Christian fundementalism, you must take out the intolerance part. I do not have to accept your views, but I must tolerate them. See the difference?

[lurking horror]

Sir Turylon: "A yawn is when you open your mouth and stretch your mouth because you are tired. It has nothing to do with sighing or the expulsion of air from the lungs. Yawning has to do with the muscles of the mouth.... There are audible yawns and silent yawns."

Nope.

http://www.cerebronosso.bio.br/paginas/yawnwhat.html

http://webperso.easyconnect.fr/baillement/english/yawning.pdf

[Sir Turylon]

[. Sir Turylon is arguing that the unborn children in the links he has provided are human BECAUSE of their human mannerisims. If that is the basis for definition of humanity than it does not apply to earlier stages of pregnancy.

nice selctive memory/reading.

Live does not start at birth. (gonna use graphic language.. sorry mods)

The sperm and egg are both alive. they are alive during the transfer, and they are alive when the embryo is formed. At no process does the embryo or zygote die before birth. What you are saying is that the sperm and egg are dead, eventhough they are alive the whole time.

You are saying that life does not start till the baby is born. If this was the case, your new skin cells, body cells are not alive. Since they are never born, they are not alive.



You said that the real matter is not the act but rather the consequence. That is correct. Life or death. Murder is illegal in most of the world, yet abortion is not. Why is this? If it truely is a matterof life and death, which it is, why is it not illegal? Here's why. Abortion legailty (notice not abortion right... since there is none.) was given to women because they sought power. laugh, scoff, denie all you want to. It comes down to this. Feminists want a power that men do not have. They want to control life and death. To be able to control what happens in their own bodies makes it possible to reverse mistakes. "oops, I had sex and I got pregnant... oh well.. let's erase that mistake and not take responsibility for it." Does this apply to rape based cases? no. When this happens, you are punishing the child for something somebody else did. Since when have we given the death sentence to a son when his father killed the neighbor? This is a direct example of the flaking off of responsibility. (most cases of rape are not reported. If you look at the statistics, you will find rape only makes up for a tiny fraction of total abortions. rape should never be the proof abortion is okay.)

[Stefan]

idiot!

go read more of your propaganda books


Volume 7, Book 62, Number 63:
Narrated Sahl bin Sad:

While we were sitting in the company of the Prophet a woman came to him and presented herself (for marriage) to him. The Prophet looked at her, lowering his eyes and raising them, but did not give a reply. One of his companions said, "Marry her to me O Allah's Apostle!" The Prophet asked (him), "Have you got anything?" He said, "I have got nothing." The Prophet said, "Not even an iron ring?" He Sad, "Not even an iron ring, but I will tear my garment into two halves and give her one half and keep the other half." The Prophet; said, "No. Do you know some of the Quran (by heart)?" He said, "Yes." The Prophet said, "Go, I have agreed to marry her to you with what you know of the Qur'an (as her Mahr)." 'And for those who have no courses (i.e. they are still immature). (65.4) And the 'Iddat for the girl before puberty is three months (in the above Verse).



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64:
Narrated 'Aisha:

that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Volume 7, Book 62, Number 65:
Narrated 'Aisha:

that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that 'Aisha remained with the Prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death)." what you know of the Quran (by heart)'




This from the muslim Hadith is what he was refering to regarding the 9 year old being married. It appears that the wording is just ackward,Muhammed had her wed to another man, he did not marry her himself. regardless its still sounds somewhat disturbing, perhaps a muslim forum member can evaluate.?

[Sir Turylon]

Sir Turylon: "A yawn is when you open your mouth and stretch your mouth because you are tired. It has nothing to do with sighing or the expulsion of air from the lungs. Yawning has to do with the muscles of the mouth.... There are audible yawns and silent yawns."

Nope.

http://www.cerebronosso.bio.br/paginas/yawnwhat.html

http://webperso.easyconnect.fr/baillement/english/yawning.pdf


do you still not accept that the image showed the unborn baby yawning? want video? What would take you to believe the baby yawned?

I'd say nothing, since you will never concede that humans are not animals. :nono:


@Stefan.

Not 9, it was at 6. He did not have sex with her till she was 9 though.

[lurking horror]

nice selctive memory/reading.

Hardly. I am well aware that your argument overall includes more than just the human charateristcs angle. But I was refferring to that specifc argument. This is why I clearly said that you would likley clarify. Understand?

What you are saying is that the sperm and egg are dead, eventhough they are alive the whole time.

Where exactly did I say this? Oh right, never.

You are saying that life does not start till the baby is born.

Where exactly did I say this? Not at all. Stop attempting to interpret my arguments. You clearly have no skill at it. At least take the time to read whay is actually said.

[Noldy]

I have. And I do not agree with you. Your perceptions of the act of abortion itself is irrelevant. What is relevant is the elimination of possible life. Debate that if you like. But the percieved momentary brutality is absolutly of minor importance when compared to the possible finality of it all, isn't it?

I know it is not a valid argument. But I was shocked when i saw it, it really gave me the idea of inhumanity. I say this because this is one of the main reasons that abortion has put me off.

Fanaticism is always bad.

one second...
Fundementalism is both a form of governing view and lifestyle. They are different.

Iran has a Fundementalist Islamic government. It believes in the strict interpretation of the Quran.

Christian fundementalism believes in the strict interpretation of the Holy Scriptures. This is what I believe in. This does not mean I am intolerant of other views.

Your definition is correct. I do not believe secularism is okay, but I am tolerant of those that feel it is okay. I believe that my faith is the true faith, but I am tolerant of other faiths.

Christianity teaches tolerance. Some religions do not. When you say Christian fundementalism, you must take out the intolerance part. I do not have to accept your views, but I must tolerate them. See the difference?


Live does not start at birth. (gonna use graphic language.. sorry mods)

The sperm and egg are both alive. they are alive during the transfer, and they are alive when the embryo is formed. At no process does the embryo or zygote die before birth. What you are saying is that the sperm and egg are dead, eventhough they are alive the whole time.

You are saying that life does not start till the baby is born. If this was the case, your new skin cells, body cells are not alive. Since they are never born, they are not alive.



You said that the real matter is not the act but rather the consequence. That is correct. Life or death. Murder is illegal in most of the world, yet abortion is not. Why is this? If it truely is a matterof life and death, which it is, why is it not illegal? Here's why. Abortion legailty (notice not abortion right... since there is none.) was given to women because they sought power. laugh, scoff, denie all you want to. It comes down to this. Feminists want a power that men do not have. They want to control life and death. To be able to control what happens in their own bodies makes it possible to reverse mistakes. "oops, I had sex and I got pregnant... oh well.. let's erase that mistake and not take responsibility for it." Does this apply to rape based cases? no. When this happens, you are punishing the child for something somebody else did. Since when have we given the death sentence to a son when his father killed the neighbor? This is a direct example of the flaking off of responsibility. (most cases of rape are not reported. If you look at the statistics, you will find rape only makes up for a tiny fraction of total abortions. rape should never be the proof abortion is okay.)


Except for your fundamental christanity, we believe the same.

[Noldy]

We are actually having about 8 subjects to talk on at the moment in this thread.

[Sir Turylon]

We are actually having about 8 subjects to talk on at the moment in this thread.


funny how the discussion on election has turned to morality issues. 8)

[Ledhead]

funny how the discussion on election has turned to morality issues. 8)

how moral is capital punishment?
I don't think it's either christian or democratic for a state to kill its own citizens, and W has the record for killing his own subjects when he was governor of Texas.
9?

[lurking horror]

Noldy: "We are actually having about 8 subjects to talk on at the moment in this thread."

Sir Turylon: "funny how the discussion on election has turned to morality issues."

It's actually quite exhausting.

I think I'm ready to go back to discussing digital interpretations of medieval politics now.

[Dobber]

how moral is capital punishment?
I don't think it's either christian or democratic for a state to kill its own citizens, and W has the record for killing his own subjects when he was governor of Texas.
9?

W didn't kill those folks, He did not write the laws on capital punishment, nor did he have anything to do with getting them passed. They were already the law of the state of Texas when he became Governor of the state. He didn't sit as judge and jury of their case.

Another thing he didn't have subjects when he was Governor, there is no Monarchy in the US , thus there are no subjects.

[William Blake]

By the way, now, then mr Bush secured white house for himself we can watch a new show "storm of Falluja, part II". A lot of air raids, burning city, hundreds dead from all sides, but mostly common inocent folks, nothing accomplished, but will be reported as "huge success".

We appologize for delay, but since content of the show could offend some valuable voters the show was re-scheduled to start right after the election.

Contact you local cable provider for more details.

[Anguille2]

Ultrasounds are NOT availiable at all clinics. I think the ratios was 250 out of over 3000 locations had one. My point was to set them up in every location and provide them for free. This would give the mother a LIVE picture of the unborn child growing, and the little heart beating. They also have a 3D ultrasound which actually shows a image of the baby... They have seen the unborn child yawning, scratching, waving, grabbing its feet, clapping its hands... yet... it is not alive... amazing.

They did not. You must not be very knowledgable on my faith. "Love the Lord God with all your mind, body and spirit. Love your neighbor as yourself." If they were really followers of Christ, they would NOT have persucuted the blacks.

You still do not understand what I was saying about Hitler... He used the religions in Germany to forward his own anti-Jewish and anti-God agendas. Constantine used Christianity to unite Rome, since Christianity was so widely accepted.

Nation states, governments, tyrants have used religion to try to unite people in their agendas. Germany, France, Spain, Italy, Turkey, Egypt, Iraq, England, and even Russia have all been victims of this type of control through religion.


1. Making an abortion is a very difficult decision and seeing the unborn child doesn't change the situation the women are in. Some do change their mind but most don't. Do i agree? personaly no. However i cannot forbid it. They don't make it out of fun...i can assure you. The problem is also that a good sexual education would help reduce the amount of unwanted children. However most opponents to abortion don't want that either...big contradiction.

2. Faith is difficult. What we have done in certain conditions? i don't know. You may very well be a christian and harm people. Are you a good christian? no, but christian nonetheless. More than 100'000 people have died in Irak.

3. I don't think that Hitler was anti-god. He was just mad.

PS what's a unitarian? i am a normal catholic in the official church.